WHICH ONE - Canon HF S21 - Sony HDR-CX550V - Panasonic HDC-TM700 - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 176 Old 11-30-2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BOB HAN View Post
Which one allows the easiest transfer of data into a I-Mac (18 months old) and playing to Plasma with my apple TV. I only use I-movie. Not going to be editing, just filming the family and storing on my Mac. I don't want to have to convert files, just load them up.

I also want to be able to take the memory card out and play through my Panasonic Bluray BDP65 player.

Thanks Bob Hanson
All will be compatible. However, you cannot shoot in 60p on the Panasonic and use iMovie without converting using a tool that costs $50.

I'm on the fence between the Sony and the Panasonic. I do mostly video close-up of phones, cases and mobile phone software demos. I'm sure any of these will be suitable. I'm intrigued by the 60p for home videos, which might be worth the trouble of converting.

Right now, price is playing a big factor. Sony is a few hundred more.
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post #152 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cmeinck View Post

All will be compatible. However, you cannot shoot in 60p on the Panasonic and use iMovie without converting using a tool that costs $50.

I'm on the fence between the Sony and the Panasonic. I do mostly video close-up of phones, cases and mobile phone software demos. I'm sure any of these will be suitable. I'm intrigued by the 60p for home videos, which might be worth the trouble of converting.

Right now, price is playing a big factor. Sony is a few hundred more.

TM700 bottom line. The 1080 60p video from it is supurb in quality. I also have a Sony HVR-A1 which is 60i. Other than the XLR adapter that came with the Sony, I can't think of anything else that compaires to the quality of the TM700 at 1080 60p. Even in low light, the TM700 can produce very clean video, where my A1's low light video looks like someone scratched it with a wire brush it,s so grainy. I also payed over $1000.00 more for the Sony, now that hurts. Unless you've seen the 60p video via HDMI on a good 1080p HDTV, you haven't seen what it really looks like. Sorry to all the Mac users that can't work with 1080 60p or USB3???? as soon as Apple gets that worm out, maybe they'll catch up. The low down is you don't need a new computer to edit 1080 60p as CS5 Premiere, After Effects and Sony Vegas 8c -10a can edit, render to 1080 60p .WMV, .m2ts, MP4 and MOV. However, in order to playback those renderd files, you will need a fast machine. I built an i7 930 6 gig ram two hard drives for a little over a grand. So I could get the TM700 and a new fast i7 for the same cost as the Sony HVR-a1, well actually the A1 has gone up since I bought it, so I would have money left over. Also Panasonic makes BluRay players that support 1080 60p. Here's how to render for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEP70GGjjA

That Tiger video on Vimeo is from the TM700 and I was able to download the Native .mts file before Vimeo comverted it to MP4 as they do after a month for non premium Vimeo users. That video is the best quality video I have ever seen from any consumer or prosumer camera. Several people asked wheres a big box store that sells it, Best buy does, too high of a price to buy there, but do your self a favor before you buy anythese cameras mentioned on this thread and take a HDMI mini to HDMI cable,(TM700 didn't come with it) and go to best buy and get the sales person to let you connect it to a good 1080p HDTV. This thread would end if we all did that. Danny Hays, Universal Orlando Resort A/V dept.
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post #153 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Danny Hays View Post

That Tiger video on Vimeo is from the TM700 and I was able to download the Native .mts file before Vimeo comverted it to MP4 as they do after a month for non premium Vimeo users. That video is the best quality video I have ever seen from any consumer or prosumer camera.

Oh, yeah. When my wife saw this video on our 50-inch plasma she said she understood what the hoopla was about, and that she was ok with me buying yet another camcorder ;-) That tiger must have sold lots of these camcorders.
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post #154 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay968 View Post

I've been using the TM700 for several months now, owned an HFS21 as well, and just purchased a CX550 a couple of weeks ago.

To make a long story short, while I feel that nothing beats the TM700 in 60p mode, I have concluded, that of the 3, the Sony probably makes the most sense. 60p is just not as practical (at least not yet anyway) for me, as my goal is always to end up with something on a blu-ray disk. I know of no authoring solution that allows one to burn 1080 60p footage onto blu-ray. I had been converting to 720 60p but doing so quite frankly just does not take full advantage of this camcorder. This footage just does not look any better than what I can get out of the Sony. Yes, it's a bit smoother since it is progressive, however in most other regards the Sony 1080i footage looks just as good if not better. Again, record in 1080 60p and the Panasonic is the winner, but I am tired of the converting and ending up with results that just do not warrant any of it.

As far as the Sony goes, there are some real advantages that I have found.
1 - Widest lens of the bunch. There IS a tendency to show some flare if pointed towards the sun, but this is done away with when using a hood.
2 - The OIS is wonderful in this camcorder. Better than that on either the Panasonic or the Canon.
3 - The video output while nothing spectacular just looks good. Color is pretty accurate (more so than the Canon), sharpness and auto focusing are very good.
4 - There is a remote socket where I have plugged in a Varizoom adapter cable. This cable will convert a standard lanc cable to the proprietary socket used on the Sony, so I can use a lanc remote control to be able to control both start/stop and zoom functions from the handle of a tripod. This is invaluable and something that the Panasonic unfortunately misses.
5 - No more fan noise. Yes it's very slight on the Panasonic, and yes I had found that putting my thumb over the fan does away with it, but you know what? It shouldn't have been there to begin with. Now I don't have to deal with it at all anymore.

So while I feel there are some really great aspects to the Panasonic, there are some serious shortcomings as well. I think the Sony will be a pretty good fit for me at this point.

Jay, thanks alot for that post.

Since I gifted my SR11 to my nephew, I've been looking for a replacement. I would prefer 5.1 sound so it seems that I'm down to the CX550 and the TM700.

I like to edit my files and I have BD burner to make discs for family/friends.

BTW, the wide angle on the CX550 may be a critical feature for me. The narrow lens of the SR11 always irritated me and I bought a wide angle attachment.
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post #155 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 07:44 PM
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[quote=cmeinck;19568646]All will be compatible. However, you cannot shoot in 60p on the Panasonic and use iMovie without converting using a tool that costs $50.

What is the tool that costs $50?
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post #156 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 07:51 PM
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[quote=BOB HAN;19579040]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmeinck View Post

All will be compatible. However, you cannot shoot in 60p on the Panasonic and use iMovie without converting using a tool that costs $50.

What is the tool that costs $50?

ClipWrap
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post #157 of 176 Old 12-01-2010, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmeinck View Post

ClipWrap

AFAIK, it works for FCP, but not for iMovie. Apple specifically created iFrame because iMovie could not ingest regular AVCHD files.
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post #158 of 176 Old 12-02-2010, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

AFAIK, it works for FCP, but not for iMovie. Apple specifically created iFrame because iMovie could not ingest regular AVCHD files.

I think I read where the free script on Apple's discussion forum allows quick conversion to an mk4 file that can be imported into iMovie.

I'll find out soon enough. I decided on the Panasonic after much debate. I have a fast computer, so I think I can deal with the hurdles of converting. I picked up a $50 32GB Transcend Class 10 card, UV filter and case for less than $100.

Nice package under $1k. I need to make sure I've converted all my miniDV, so I can sell off my Canon Vixia HV30 to offset the cost.
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post #159 of 176 Old 12-02-2010, 07:31 AM
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post #160 of 176 Old 12-02-2010, 02:57 PM
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Regarding sony and canon i have owned quite a few sony cams and the colour from my canons is far better, the pana 700s look top notch though.
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post #161 of 176 Old 12-06-2010, 09:01 PM
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Well, I have had a TM700 for a few days now and I guess this is as good a place to post my comments as any other thread. (I got the TM700 through a sale and an open box: good deal.)

I'm planning to return it and I'm posting this message to hear any arguments against my decision.

----

I trust Ken Ross and he was one poster (among many) that rave about the TM700's picture quality. I was also intrigued about the 60p and the 28 Mb/s data rate. Yet, to make a long story short, I couldn't see the improved PQ while I had many other problems with the Panasonic's files. I recorded outdoors, indoors, sunlight and so on. To my eye, the TM700 had saturated colours and the image was not striking. (What is it about Americans and Japanese and saturation? Can't you people be subtle?)

I wondered: Is it my eye that is the problem? Is it an American obsession with fatty food? A Japanese obsession with fantasy?

Then, I recorded my cat sitting in full sunlight from about 10 cm and the image on the screen showed the TM700's PQ everyone said was phenomenal. On the screen, I could see the whiskers and the changing fur patterns in perfect detail. As Ungermann says above, I swear to God that damn tiger video explains why the TM700 rates so highly.

But these are peculiar situations that are not common in video. IMHO, the TM700 is a low end DSLR. It can photograph non-moving subjects in good light. But as soon as there is movement, or poor/ordinary light conditions, then the TM700 is just another ordinary Camcorder.

Well, not quite.

The first time that I turned on the TM700, I heard the noise of the fan. (I remember people asking about the noise of a HDD which is normally undetectable.) I couldn't believe that anyone would put 5.1 sound in a camcorder with such a cooling system.

In addition, the *.mts files of the TM700 do not play on my PS3. (I have the newer PS3 that does not have a SDHC slot.) Well, they play for about 45 seconds at 28 Mb/s to 35 Mb/s and then the sound/image starts to shudder and the rate falls to 7 Mb/s.

I can play the files through Splash (great software) using my laptop to my 52" HDTV screen but that's a hassle/imperfect. (BTW, my laptop has a 1920x1080 resolution screen which I also used for testing. I'm assuming that Splash doesn't degrade the image. I gave away my mini-HDMI cable and I'm waiting for a new one. For the moment, I have no way to connect the TM700 directly to the large screen so this perhaps flawed my tests. But anyway, I want to play files - not connect my camcorder to a TV. Is this Hi-8 technology?)

I can import the TM700's files to Vegas Platinum 10 but then I lose the advantage of 60p. Vegas converts them to 60i. I can buy Edius software (at about $700) and edit the files but I can't create a Bluray disc at 60p.

Without 60p, I lose the so-called superior PQ and I'm at 60i but at 17 Mb/s just like the Canon/Sony's of two or three years ago. (Another point: When you choose the 60p option in the TM700, many other control features disappear.)

The autofocus of the TM700 is good (to the extent I tested it) but it's lowlight ability is about as good as my SR11 (despite what the CCI review says).

I was less than impressed with the TM700's 5.1 sound. Other than the fan noise, it just doesn't sound good to my ear.

------

The bottom line here is that (sorry to be personal but I don't know how else to state this), Ken Ross is a picture guy. He chooses the camcorder with the best PQ. The TM700, under ideal circumstances (perfect light, no moving object) delivers a precise (saturated to my eye) image.

In any other circumstance, the image is saturated, imprecise.

Without PQ, the TM700 is a lousy camera. The file format is non-standard and difficult to play/edit. It has a horrible fan noise and the mic is not great anyway. (There's also no Bluetooth remote possible.) The OIS was about as good as my SR11.

-----

Last point: I tend to think that 60p is a fad. 60i, 60p? What's the difference? Whatever the claim, we are talking about compression techniques (MPEG4) and its current video consumer standard AVC-HD. Good software will play interlaced or progressive as required - the terms are almost meaningless except in terms of compression. Given the compression technique, the better question is data rates and if there are going to be changes in consumer camcorders in the future, it will be there. We may soon see camcorders using AVC-HD compression but with 50 Mb/s or more.
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post #162 of 176 Old 12-06-2010, 09:32 PM
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For sure if you hooked up the camcorder directly to the TV you would have had better results detail and motion quality wise but when it comes to colors, that can be subjective although I'm sure you can change the colors. There is a guy on Vimeo who actually matches the TM700's colors to the Canon's.

As far as the fan noise is concerned, some units have it worse than others especially in the first batch of units that came out since you'll find reports of people returning it for another one and getting much better results. What I think might have happened in your case, is that you got one of those units with a bad fan issue which was returned. Still a lot of people mention that they only hear the fan only in quite environments and again, they most likely have better units and obviously people with issues can solve that with an external mic but it true than your adding mass to the camcorder and for some people, that's annoying.

The best results for low light is keeping it at full wide and at f/1.5. Still, if you were to put a very fast lens on a DSLR, the low light capabilities of the TM700 will look bad compared to it. This is one of the reasons why I find myself upgrading the GH1 to the GH2. I also plan on getting either the TM700 or the SDT750 for most of my daylight shooting.

I do agree that the TM700 isn't perfect just like any other camcorder. You just got to pick your priories. I know for me, I want the images to look the least ancient as possible as the years go by which is why I choose to spend much more money on an HC1 when I could have saved a lot by getting the Panasonic GS400. I wasn't ready at all but in the end I told myself that years from now, I'll look back at that decision once HD takes off. I find it incredible that I have HD footage that's over 5 years old.



Next year Sony is planning on releasing an S35 sized NXCAM and they claimed there's a possibility that it'll record to 1080 60p. Canon have shown a preproduction 4K 60p camera. I think as the years go by, 60i will start to vanish and most people will either prefer 24p or 60p. Things are going to be very interesting.
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post #163 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 12:37 AM
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Bottom line is: if YOU are not satisfied with your TM700, then it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, or says. But remember, the PQ depends as much on the camcorder as on what tv you'll be watching the results on.
It's like a sound system; you can have a great CD player, a great amplifier, but if your speakers aren't as good then you'll think the whole system is bad.

Having saturated colors isn't a bad thing, you can always cut down after. But if there's not enough saturation to begin with, then trying to boost it afterward will result in a noisy PQ. Just lower the color saturation level on your tv.

I truly do not understand when you say that movements are not very good on the TM700. In 1080 @60p mode, it has the highest temporal resolution of many other models. 60 full frames per second! Not 30, like 60i produces. But of course, again, your tv has to be of high quality to display those frames accurately (a 120 Hz refresh rate with a minimum of 4 ms response time will help a lot).

Anyway, even though it's far from perfect, I am still satisfied with my TM700. But if you are not, then simply return it and get one that will satify YOUR needs.
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post #164 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post
Well, I have had a TM700 for a few days now and I guess this is as good a place to post my comments as any other thread. (I got the TM700 through a sale and an open box: good deal.)

I'm planning to return it and I'm posting this message to hear any arguments against my decision.

----

I trust Ken Ross and he was one poster (among many) that rave about the TM700's picture quality. I was also intrigued about the 60p and the 28 Mb/s data rate. Yet, to make a long story short, I couldn't see the improved PQ while I had many other problems with the Panasonic's files. I recorded outdoors, indoors, sunlight and so on. To my eye, the TM700 had saturated colours and the image was not striking. (What is it about Americans and Japanese and saturation? Can't you people be subtle?)

I wondered: Is it my eye that is the problem? Is it an American obsession with fatty food? A Japanese obsession with fantasy?

Then, I recorded my cat sitting in full sunlight from about 10 cm and the image on the screen showed the TM700's PQ everyone said was phenomenal. On the screen, I could see the whiskers and the changing fur patterns in perfect detail. As Ungermann says above, I swear to God that damn tiger video explains why the TM700 rates so highly.

But these are peculiar situations that are not common in video. IMHO, the TM700 is a low end DSLR. It can photograph non-moving subjects in good light. But as soon as there is movement, or poor/ordinary light conditions, then the TM700 is just another ordinary Camcorder.

Well, not quite.

The first time that I turned on the TM700, I heard the noise of the fan. (I remember people asking about the noise of a HDD which is normally undetectable.) I couldn't believe that anyone would put 5.1 sound in a camcorder with such a cooling system.

In addition, the *.mts files of the TM700 do not play on my PS3. (I have the newer PS3 that does not have a SDHC slot.) Well, they play for about 45 seconds at 28 Mb/s to 35 Mb/s and then the sound/image starts to shudder and the rate falls to 7 Mb/s.

I can play the files through Splash (great software) using my laptop to my 52" HDTV screen but that's a hassle/imperfect. (BTW, my laptop has a 1920x1080 resolution screen which I also used for testing. I'm assuming that Splash doesn't degrade the image. I gave away my mini-HDMI cable and I'm waiting for a new one. For the moment, I have no way to connect the TM700 directly to the large screen so this perhaps flawed my tests. But anyway, I want to play files - not connect my camcorder to a TV. Is this Hi-8 technology?)

I can import the TM700's files to Vegas Platinum 10 but then I lose the advantage of 60p. Vegas converts them to 60i. I can buy Edius software (at about $700) and edit the files but I can't create a Bluray disc at 60p.

Have you not read the numerous posts stating that 60P is not a Blue Ray spec?

Without 60p, I lose the so-called superior PQ and I'm at 60i but at 17 Mb/s just like the Canon/Sony's of two or three years ago. (Another point: When you choose the 60p option in the TM700, many other control features disappear.)

The autofocus of the TM700 is good (to the extent I tested it) but it's lowlight ability is about as good as my SR11 (despite what the CCI review says).

I was less than impressed with the TM700's 5.1 sound. Other than the fan noise, it just doesn't sound good to my ear.

------

The bottom line here is that (sorry to be personal but I don't know how else to state this), Ken Ross is a picture guy. He chooses the camcorder with the best PQ. The TM700, under ideal circumstances (perfect light, no moving object) delivers a precise (saturated to my eye) image.

In any other circumstance, the image is saturated, imprecise.

Without PQ, the TM700 is a lousy camera. The file format is non-standard and difficult to play/edit. It has a horrible fan noise and the mic is not great anyway. (There's also no Bluetooth remote possible.) The OIS was about as good as my SR11.

-----

Last point: I tend to think that 60p is a fad. 60i, 60p? What's the difference? Whatever the claim, we are talking about compression techniques (MPEG4) and its current video consumer standard AVC-HD. Good software will play interlaced or progressive as required - the terms are almost meaningless except in terms of compression. Given the compression technique, the better question is data rates and if there are going to be changes in consumer camcorders in the future, it will be there. We may soon see camcorders using AVC-HD compression but with 50 Mb/s or more.
To each his own, however you will find that there are thousands of TM700 owners (I being one of them) that find this camcorder to be the best there is for the price. Obviously your standards are higher.
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post #165 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 06:38 AM
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@August1991

You wrote:"... Last point: I tend to think that 60p is a fad. 60i, 60p? What's the difference? Whatever the claim, we are talking about compression techniques (MPEG4) and its current video consumer standard AVC-HD. Good software will play interlaced or progressive as required - the terms are almost meaningless except in terms of compression. Given the compression technique, the better question is data rates and if there are going to be changes in consumer camcorders in the future, it will be there. We may soon see camcorders using AVC-HD compression but with 50 Mb/s or more."

60p a fad? The terms are almost meaningless except in terms of compression? May I suggest that you read a little on the technical aspects of electronic image sensors scanning, first? Anyway, if you can't appreciate the difference between interlaced and progressive scanning, then you clearly don't need a TM700.
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post #166 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post

I can import the TM700's files to Vegas Platinum 10 but then I lose the advantage of 60p. Vegas converts them to 60i.

I have Vegas 10 Pro, but I think that Platinum and Pro have the same capabilities in this regard. Pro does not convert 60p to 60i. Just create your own project settings with 60p/progressive, and it will work.
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Last point: I tend to think that 60p is a fad. 60i, 60p? What's the difference?

The difference is that 60p has twice higher vertical resolution, and you don't need to deinterlace for progressive-scan devices or for uploading on the Web.
Quote:
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I truly do not understand when you say that movements are not very good on the TM700. In 1080 @60p mode, it has the highest temporal resolution of many other models. 60 full frames per second! Not 30, like 60i produces. But of course, again, your tv has to be of high quality to display those frames accurately (a 120 Hz refresh rate with a minimum of 4 ms response time will help a lot).

60p has exactly the same temporal resolution as 60i. You do not need a 120 Hz TV set to display the frames accurately, a regular 60 Hz TV set is enough.

Fan? Yes, can be heard in quiet conditions. 5.1 audio? Now THIS is a fad to me, coming from one small mic. PQ is all this camcorder is about? Sure it is, it has the best resolution among consumer HD cams, it even puts to shame many pro cameras. Yes, it has clunky user interface, but its PQ is phenomenal. Connect the cam directly to your TV via HDMI before sending the camcorder back.
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post #167 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 11:16 AM
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@Ungermann

You wrote: "...60p has exactly the same temporal resolution as 60i. You do not need a 120 Hz TV set to display the frames accurately, a regular 60 Hz TV set is enough."

It's true that you don't need a 120 Hz tv to view 60p, although for the LCD type it's strongly recommended to avoid blurring.
And it's also true that 60i and 60p both have the same temporal resolution (my bad). But they definitely do not result in the same number of frames per second being displayed. 60p=60fps, 60i=30fps, right? (okay 59.94 and 29.97 to be more precise)

What I meant to write was that 60p has higher SPATIAL resolution of the vertical axis. Because all 1080 successive horizontal lines are scanned in one complete sequence from the start. Whereas 60i scans 2 successive fields of only 540 odd and even lines each, which are then combined (de-interlaced) into a complete 1080 lines frame. But each horizontal line will not match the next one IF movement is present from one field to the next, causing blurring in moving parts of the picture.

There are sophisticated real-time software algorithms to minimize this effect upon playback, but it will inevitably be worst than 60p, especially for fast action.
In 60p, each frame will have all of its 1080 lines match much more precisely with the previous one, because it was done in one continuous process (be it via rolling shutter or global shutter). In fact, for sports with fast action, 60p and global shutter is a top notch combination.

I initially just wanted to point out that, if there was no significant difference between 60i and 60p, they wouldn't have made the effort to create 60p. The need was there, and I can see and appreciate the difference even if some people can't.

Thanks for correcting me, Ungermann. Hope what I just wrote made more sense this time...
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post #168 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 08:45 PM
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simple question from a newb to HD cameras. I was thinking of picking of the tm700 after briefly reading about it here on the forums and hearing all the great reviews.


I would like to be able to edit video though, this is important to me. Am I really unable to edit video from this camera? Or only unable to edit video at 60p? I'd be fine if I could edit at 60i. (Im on 64 bit windows 7)


Also can I attach a light to this camera for low light conditions?

Thanks!
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post #169 of 176 Old 12-07-2010, 09:50 PM
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Most NLE's that doesn't have the name Apple written on it can edit the 1080 60p files without doing anything at all. Just take the files off the card and import them into your project. For Final Cut on the other hand, you'll have to either buy ClipWrap or use a free program that's in here.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....85&ts%20tart=0
Basically it takes it out of the MTS wrapper with no loss in picture quality.
For sure to edit those files like Mini DV you'll need something like a a quad-core i7 or Xeon processor. It would also help if you had certain NVidia cards although not required for smooth editing. For example I was editing some files on Premiere using a Xeon Mac with an ATI card without issue.

Nevermind the fact that simple software does come with it although it'll only work on Windows.

If your not ready for 1080 60p playback, I highly recommend you to record in 1080 60p anyway since like I said, just about any NLE will edit them although with varying results and you can always have the camcorder down-convert the files automatically to 1080 60i.

Now if you were to shoot in 24p, you have to get something such as CineForm NeoScene because Panasonic is pretending they haven't read all of the complaints the Canon HV20 used to have on the forums. This is why the Canon HV40 and there newest AVCHD camcorders can all record to native 24p. I really can't believe Panasonic did that and to make matters worse they even did that to the SDT750 and TM750 I believe. This makes me question if that decision was more political knowing that they still want to sell the HMC40. Back to NeoScene, it cost about $100 and it basically automatically convert the 24p within 60i files back to native 24p and shoot out a high quality AVI stream that compatible with most NLEs.

With all that said, I'm extremely glad Panasonic put in native 24p into the GH2. For sure I would have been extremely pissed off if Panasonic did the same bad mistake again. Still, I'm far more into 60p than 24p and I'm glad Panasonic is putting that mode in there top camcorders. It's like I said earlier, Sony is planning on putting 1080 60p on the new S35 sized NXCAM since they really need a feature that will separate their camera from the Panasonic AF100. If they really plan on doing that, then it will not surprise me if the successor of the CX550 also gets 1080 60p.

Having both Panasonic and Sony on board the 1080 60p bandwagon will significantly increase the chances of Blu-Ray getting that added to the spec. It's a fact that more and more people are starting to hate 60i. I do have a feeling that in the future we'll see a big war between 24p and 60p especially when 60p gets far more popular than it is now. A lot can definitely change if a big budget motion picture gets shot in 60p and becomes popular just like Avatar played a big role in dramatically increasing the popularity of 3D. With that said, even a well produced 1080 60p video on Vimeo can have a big effect if it gets advertised well.
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post #170 of 176 Old 12-10-2010, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

5.1 audio? Now THIS is a fad to me, coming from one small mic. PQ is all this camcorder is about? Sure it is, it has the best resolution among consumer HD cams, it even puts to shame many pro cameras.

Ungermann, I trust your judgment so I'll reconsider this.

But IMV, 5.1 puts me in the picture. The camcorder may only have two mics but a good demux captures sound well.

----

My issue is with PQ. I just don't get the raves of the TM700's PQ. To my eye, the TM700 works well with still/slow moving objects in contrast. IOW, the TM700 is a lousy DSLR. (I can understand why many people would rate its PQ high. But it's a lousy video camera.)
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post #171 of 176 Old 12-10-2010, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Bottom line is: if YOU are not satisfied with your TM700, then it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, or says. But remember, the PQ depends as much on the camcorder as on what tv you'll be watching the results on.

Alain, you are right about the feel of a camera.

As to PQ, believe me, I'm not new to HD camcorders.

-----

I really want to like this TM700. It's 5.1 sound is good, and has excellent wind control. In very specific circumstances, its colour/precision is remarkable.

But the *.mts files are not standard, and the technology seems derivative, not cutting edge.
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post #172 of 176 Old 12-21-2010, 08:28 AM
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I would like some feedback regarding a good HD camcorder that will be used for shooting normal home videos and while we are traveling with little to no priority in editing. It seems obvious the TM-700 has the best picture quality due to its 60p mode. But with having 32GB of internal memory, obviously after a few hours of recording that space will be taken up. What I am looking for is a camera that has great picture quality that I am able to transfer to a computer, burn onto a disc, and watch it on my big screen TV's at home. Is there any software out there that will allow me to just transfer the 60p video of the TM-700 to my computer and burn it onto a disc to watch on my TV? Or is the only way to do this with the Panny to shoot in its lower resolution modes (which from what I read are not as good as the 24p of the Canon S20). I would appreciate some feedback on this asap! Thanks.
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post #173 of 176 Old 12-21-2010, 02:38 PM
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For people who aren't ready for 1080 60p yet, you can still shoot in 1080 60p. The camcorder has a built in feature that down-grades to 1080 60i automatically. It even comes with software that either stitches 1080 60p files together or downgrade to 1080 60i.

Unless you need 24p or the extra storage, 1080 60p should always be used. More 60p cameras are going to roll out soon and that includes the Red Scarlet, Canon 4K camera, a JVC the will be revealed at CES and Sony will possibly put 60p on the S35 sized NXCAM knowing that 60p is starting to be very popular.

Now when it comes to shooting in 24p, it's in a 60i wrapper in which you need to spend around $100 for NeoScene to bring the file back to pure 24p. Basically if you have to shoot in 24p most of the time and need to edit right away, the HF S20 can be considered but it's still missing a viewfinder and you have to go up to the HF S21 to get that. Comparing the price of the TM700 to the HF S21 is pretty big. To me a view finder is very important unless I find a good deal on a camcorder without one.


I'm basically almost repeating everything I've already said in this thread.
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post #174 of 176 Old 12-21-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

For people who aren't ready for 1080 60p yet, you can still shoot in 1080 60p. The camcorder has a built in feature that down-grades to 1080 60i automatically. It even comes with software that either stitches 1080 60p files together or downgrade to 1080 60i.

Unless you need 24p or the extra storage, 1080 60p should always be used. More 60p cameras are going to roll out soon and that includes the Red Scarlet, Canon 4K camera, a JVC the will be revealed at CES and Sony will possibly put 60p on the S35 sized NXCAM knowing that 60p is starting to be very popular.

Now when it comes to shooting in 24p, it's in a 60i wrapper in which you need to spend around $100 for NeoScene to bring the file back to pure 24p. Basically if you have to shoot in 24p most of the time and need to edit right away, the HF S20 can be considered but it's still missing a viewfinder and you have to go up to the HF S21 to get that. Comparing the price of the TM700 to the HF S21 is pretty big. To me a view finder is very important unless I find a good deal on a camcorder without one.


I'm basically almost repeating everything I've already said in this thread.

So if I was to buy say a Canon S20 then I take it the mode I would end up shooting in the most is 1080 30p correct? When exactly would one use the 24p or is it just a matter of preference? Also, if I was to purchase the TM-700, am I able to transfer the 60p video to a computer and burn it onto a DVD-R using the supplied Panasonic software? If yes, how much record time can fit onto a single disc? I think the only editing I may do is clipping out unwanted footage and perhaps doing some sort of transitions between clips. I would just like to get a camera with excellent HD quality and something that I can transfer to and burn from my PC WITHOUT having to buy a ton of extra software or having to do a lot of converting. At the same time, I want to watch it in the maximum quality possible on my TV's (currently have a Samsung PN-58C8000 plasma and LN-52B750 LCD). I assume I need to record the disc and play it back from a blu-ray player to achieve maximum picture quality viewing from my TV? Please help me out here as I am a noob to HD camcorders...
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post #175 of 176 Old 01-17-2011, 07:44 AM
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WOW... I have read all the post here and I have read a tone of reviews on both camcorders. I have also looked at videos on YouTube for some video comparisons. Bottom line is I had my eyes set on the Panasonic. I was 100% for sure to get the Panasonic. BUT now that I have found several reviews talking about this fan noise issue... I am not so sure. I am not so worried for the noise right now... I could end up buying the camcorder now and have little to no fan noise... but what about 4 to 5 years from now? I mean... look at anything you use with a fan. The fan never runs as smooth as it used to from when you first bought it. I really, really, really want to get the Panasonic... but nervous for the future of the fan.
NOW... Given the fact that I am coming from a Sony MiniDV tape standard defintion camcorder... maybe the S21 would do the trick for my needs.
Home vidoes of the family during holidays and other family events. Maybe I should not be comparing the TM700 to the S21.... maybe I should be comparing the difference between my Sony MiniDV tape standard definition camcorder to the S21. The S21 would obviously perform better in low light situations and give 100 times better picture quality.. Correct?
Am I going abou this in the wrong way? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.
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post #176 of 176 Old 01-17-2011, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

For people who aren't ready for 1080 60p yet, you can still shoot in 1080 60p. The camcorder has a built in feature that down-grades to 1080 60i automatically. It even comes with software that either stitches 1080 60p files together



Hey, Paulo, can you walk through how to do this? I am working to upgrade to Windows 7 but until then everything is in Japanese....does the camcorder itself assist in stitching the files together?

I find that all of my dvd playback delays between clips making it feel choppy, but this sounds like the solution, if the camcorder assist. Sorry, eventually I will be able to read the HD Writer manual and see the controls in English...which will help a lot...ugh...
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