WHICH ONE - Canon HF S21 - Sony HDR-CX550V - Panasonic HDC-TM700 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 176 Old 05-21-2010, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Steenhoek27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Help me choose - Canon HF S21 Sony HDR-CX550V Panasonic HDC-TM700

Not into editing much (at all really) - looking for good quality video for kids sports, family birthdays (low/varying degrees of light), good audio capture without additional microphone, good battery /recording time (in highest resolution settings), and the main reason I'm here - your opinion on ease of use - I am tech friendly - my wife not so much.

Thanks for your opinion
Steenhoek27 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 176 Old 05-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Member
 
Cdy291's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would almost say those would be too much and look at the Sony CX300, but out of those the Canon will be the most complicated, but have a lot of pro type features. Between the other two I just don't know.
Cdy291 is offline  
post #3 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 06:52 AM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just spent about a month trying out these three cameras and for what it's worth, here is my take on them:

Canon HFS21
Pros:
Excellent sharpness
Good amount of manual controls
Good build quality
Good image stabilization, not quite as good as the Sony
"Neutral" setting creates natural looking videos (color and contrast)-this is a setting I wish all cameras had
2 card slots
Cons:
Poor white balance (in order to get white balance right on I find that I have to use a warming filter in front of the lens and do a manual white balance, then take the filter off to do the shooting. This fools the camera into thinking the scene is too blue and will adjust. If not, footage comes out too blue)
No wide lens

Sony 550V
Pros:
Widest lens (28mm equivalent)
Small, compact
Good sharpness but not as good as the Canon
Good, almost totally noise free low light shooting
Decent color compensation controls
Excellent image stabilization, the best of the 3
Cons:
Like the Canon, white balance leaves a lot to be desired
Low light sharpness not as good as Canon
Wish it had that neutral setting or some kind of control over saturation and sharpness that the Canon has. Videos are very vivid out of this camera. Good for some people but not as natural looking as I would like

Panasonic
Pros:
Excellent (best of the 3) color and white balance
Excellent control over saturation levels, color bias and exposure...best of the 3
35mm equivalent wide angle, not as wide as Sony but good enough
Cons:
BIG ONE -> almost uselsess due to the fact that it does not use standard AVCHD structure. I spent hours and hours trying to get Final Cut Pro on my Mac to first accept the files (finally had to have them converted in Toast to something FCP could understand) and I never was able to get FCP to produce a blu-ray disk with them, just no go! I am not talking only 60p footage, I was unable to get ANYTHING onto blu-ray whatsoever
Image stabilization the poorest of the 3 cameras-not quite a deal breaker but close
Sharpness not quite as good as either the Canon or Sony

I ended up going with the Canon mainly due to the fact that its videos looked the most neutral, meaning good contrast and overall color (once I used my filter method). I am also using the Canon 58mm wide angle converter which is very sharp. I WOULD have chosen the Panasonic if not for the issues I had getting it onto my computer and onto a blu-ray disk (which I never did accomplish)

I can probably think of more to say given enough time but I hope this all helps as a starter.
californiajay is offline  
post #4 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Steenhoek27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Great information!!! Thank you for the feedback!

Appreciate any and all comments/opinions and suggestions.

Steenhoek27 is offline  
post #5 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 08:41 AM
Member
 
lekom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post


Panasonic
Cons:
Sharpness not quite as good as either the Canon or Sony.

You must be kidding right?
Panasonic 700 has best sharpness and beats even some prosumer cams thanks to its 60p mode.
lekom is offline  
post #6 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 09:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by lekom View Post

You must be kidding right?
Panasonic 700 has best sharpness and beats even some prosumer cams thanks to its 60p mode.

Absolutely correct, I have no idea how he could possibly find the Canon and especially the Sony to be sharper. All pro reviews find it's resolution & sharpness to be the best. Considering that Steenhoek isn't looking to edit, that removes the biggest negative that people find with the 700.

The 700 has the best picture of any consumer and, as you point out, some far more expensive prosumer cameras. Essentially, if you want the best PQ from a resolution, color and sharpness standpoint, the 700 is it.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #7 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Steenhoek27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you guys...

Now regarding my wife - how's the ease of use for the non-tech and the image stabilization on these - pretty similar across the board or is there a standout amonst them?
Steenhoek27 is offline  
post #8 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 09:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Ease of use in full auto mode couldn't be easier. Press record and you're done. I think that applies to pretty much all of the units you're looking at.

OIS is pretty even for most applications between the 700 and the Sony, but I get the impression (haven't tried it myself) that the Canon may lag a bit in this department. For walking videos, the OIS of the Sony might be a bit better than the Panasonic. But you can get very stable walking videos with the 700, by using the "Mega OIS" setting which is designed for walking.

My choice was based on pure PQ for which the 700 was the best. Since other features are pretty close (the 700 allows more manual control if you like to play with that on occasion), PQ was my main factor for deciding. I've gone through more HD cams that I care to admit, and the 700 is by far the best I've ever used (including my recently sold $3,500 Sony Z5 prosumer camcorder.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #9 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Steenhoek27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you - are we allowed to talk about stores here or not? Abe something or another has the 700 for a good price...
Steenhoek27 is offline  
post #10 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 11:19 AM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
>>You must be kidding right?
Panasonic 700 has best sharpness and beats even some prosumer cams thanks to its 60p mode.<<

No I am not kidding and I know what the reviews have said but all I can do is report on what I saw with my own eyes. Perhaps I had a bad sample of that camera, I don't know, but it's sharpness while good, was not as good as the Canon, nor the Sony (and I am very picky about such things). Out in sunlight it was prefectly acceptable to me, but in low light situations it wasn't very good at all. Have you done direct comparisons between the 3 cameras like I did? If so have you seen something different? Again, I MAY have been working with a bad sample as it did surprise me knowing full well what the reviews have said about it.

For what it's worth, I didn't pay much attention to what it can do at 60p (even though sharpness at this setting was STILL not what the HFS21 showed me) due to the fact that 60p is not in the blu-ray spec. Any camera that I use must be useable as one with which I can transfer footage to blu-ray or I find it totally useless for my needs.
californiajay is offline  
post #11 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 11:25 AM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
>>>OIS is pretty even for most applications between the 700 and the Sony, but I get the impression (haven't tried it myself) that the Canon may lag a bit in this department.<<<<br />
You really SHOULD try all 3. The Canon stabilzer is very good, the Sony is the best and when using the Panasonic, I found it had pretty bad stabilization. I honestly am not trying to knock the Panny, I am just being honest. When zooming, it tended to jitter at times when neither the Canon nor the Sony did.

There are 3 reasons why I chose to reject the Panny...
1 - Unable to use it due to the software issues and not being able to print to blu-ray.
2 - Image stabilization while ok by standards set maybe 2 or 3 years ago, was lacking compared to today's Sony and Canons.
3 - As I have said prior, reviews notwithstanding, I did NOT find the sharpness any better than the Sony, but just not as good as the Canon especially in low light.
californiajay is offline  
post #12 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Steenhoek27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So many factors to consider...

dang.

Everytime I start leaning one way - I find something else that makes me think again...

More please... LOL
Steenhoek27 is offline  
post #13 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 11:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
bowmah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
californiajay, interesting how you were not able to output the Panny files to a BD, that is interesting. Is this only for the 60p footage or all footages from the Panny?

Can I also ask your workflow for outputting to BD?

Your decision to not go with the Panny is clear based on your experiences. So if the Sony only had low light sharpness issues and non-neutral images, can you give some background as to why you went with the Canon vs Sony?

Thanks for the interesting feedback and review.
bowmah is offline  
post #14 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tingham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 2,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

So many factors to consider...

dang.

Everytime I start leaning one way - I find something else that makes me think again...

More please... LOL

I know exactly how you feel. That's why I went with the JVC GZ-HM1. Here is a link to the discussion thread here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=jvc+gz+hm1

Go Phillies! Go Eagles! Go Sixers! Go Flyers!
tingham is offline  
post #15 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

For what it's worth, I didn't pay much attention to what it can do at 60p (even though sharpness at this setting was STILL not what the HFS21 showed me) due to the fact that 60p is not in the blu-ray spec. Any camera that I use must be useable as one with which I can transfer footage to blu-ray or I find it totally useless for my needs.

60p is unquestionably where the best PQ is for the 700, so not paying attention to it is like not paying attention to how well a Porsche handles. But that aside, your observation is about the only one I've read that finds the 700 to run 3rd to the others. Objective measurements show that the resolution of the 700 is in a different class from the other cams mentioned. Additionally, anyone can download footage from these cams and find the 700 is, as virtually everyone else is stating, the sharpest, most resolute cam out there.

As far as 'needs' go, we are actually talking about the needs of Steenhoek who was asking for recommendations and he has already mentioned that editing is not a high priority.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #16 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:09 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

Thank you - are we allowed to talk about stores here or not? Abe something or another has the 700 for a good price...

I believe you're talking about Abes of Maine and they are pretty reputable. The other is B&H, very reputable.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #17 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:12 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

The Canon stabilzer is very good, the Sony is the best and when using the Panasonic, I found it had pretty bad stabilization. I honestly am not trying to knock the Panny, I am just being honest. When zooming, it tended to jitter at times when neither the Canon nor the Sony did.

The 700 had 'pretty bad stabilization'???? Where are you coming up with these 'findings' and why are you the only one that has????? The OIS of the Panasonic has been much praised. Perhaps not quite as good in the walking mode as the Sony, but every bit as good as any other out there.

And yes, you sure do sound like you're 'knocking' the 700. When someone comes up with one 'finding' after another that flies in the face of owners observations, professional reviewers etc., it does make you wonder.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #18 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenhoek27 View Post

So many factors to consider...

dang.

Everytime I start leaning one way - I find something else that makes me think again...

More please... LOL

Steenhoek, this review is VERY typical of virtually every professional review conducted on this camera. So don't take our word for it, here it is. You will see their findings match what I've said as well as other owners. There is even a direct comparison to the Canon HFS-21 mentioned by another poster here. The pertinent finding in that comparison was this simple statement, "Based on our testing, the Panasonic HDC-TM700 is hands down a better camcorder than the Canon HF S21."

We report, you decide.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...view-37681.htm
Ken Ross is offline  
post #19 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 12:20 PM
Member
 
lekom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

>>You must be kidding right?
Panasonic 700 has best sharpness and beats even some prosumer cams thanks to its 60p mode.<<

No I am not kidding
Again, I MAY have been working with a bad sample as it did surprise me knowing full well what the reviews have said about it.
.

Well, this cam is praised by majority of owners and every review you pick, and considered to be #1, so I'm not sure why you say that you only may have had bad sample. I would at least investigate, why my sample underperforms this much? This is simple logic right? If you have problems that majority does not, than what?
As for S21, i don't know... Sony may (or may not) have better low light performance than TM700, but Canon lose in everything, sharpness, low light, OIS etc.

Wait, actually, according to this review, Canon has better built quality, that's just about it... &fs=1" width="644" height="390">PG9iamVjdCB3aWR0aD0iNjQwIiBoZWlnaHQ9IjM4NSI+PHBhcmFtIG5hbWU9Im1vdmllIiB2YWx1ZT0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS92L3BLc3pUemxESzhjJmFtcDtobD1lbl9VUyZhbXA7ZnM9MSZhbXA7Ij48L3BhcmFtPjxwYXJhbSBuYW1lPSJhbGxvd0Z1bGxTY3JlZW4iIHZhbHVlPSJ0cnVlIj48L3BhcmFtPjxwYXJhbSBuYW1lPSJhbGxvd3NjcmlwdGFjY2VzcyIgdmFsdWU9ImFsd2F5cyI+PC9wYXJhbT48ZW1iZWQgc3JjPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnlvdXR1YmUuY29tL3YvcEtzelR6bERLOGMmYW1wO2hsPWVuX1VTJmFtcDtmcz0xJmFtcDsiIHR5cGU9ImFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3gtc2hvY2t3YXZlLWZsYXNoIiBhbGxvd3NjcmlwdGFjY2Vzcz0iYWx3YXlzIiBhbGxvd2Z1bGxzY3JlZW49InRydWUiIHdpZHRoPSI2NDAiIGhlaWdodD0iMzg1Ij48L2VtYmVkPjwvb2JqZWN0Pg== &fs=1" />[ATTN POSTER: YouTube Insert Error: Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click 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 " target="_blank">here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.]
lekom is offline  
post #20 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 01:35 PM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
>>>Not into editing much (at all really) - looking for good quality video for kids sports, family birthdays (low/varying degrees of light), good audio capture without additional microphone, good battery /recording time (in highest resolution settings), and the main reason I'm here - your opinion on ease of use - I am tech friendly - my wife not so much.<<<<br />
The above was what the OP had asked, so since I had just gotten through some extensive use of these 3 camcorders I thought that MAYBE my thoughts on them would be appreciated. I am sorry if they do not agree with the reviews but they were honest, straightforward, to the point, unbiased and truthful. If they do not fit in with what some of you expect and they surprise you, I am sorry once again, but I have been very honest and straightforward with my appraisals. I truly was HOPING the Panasonic would work for me as it does produce the best color of the three and has the best control over things such as color saturation, color compensation, and exposure. I was even willing to accept the fact that its sharpness was not quite up to snuff compared to the Canon until I ran into the issues I had in getting the files into FCP and onto a blu-ray disk. At that point, after literally wasting hours with that, I gave up on the camera. While I can appreciate the love for this camera that some of you seem to have, I can only say that I am being honest, I am pretty well experienced with these things and more so with still cameras in general, for over 40 years actually, and have no reason to try and paint a picture other than what I honestly see and observe. Frankly, the notion that my findings do not agree with those of the 'reviews' bears little meaning to me. As we all know, reviews can and are skewed very often for whatever reason. I am sure someone coming on here asking for opinions also know that pro reviews ARE available, but there is a reason why they come here, and I would hope that often enough it is to get unbiased reviews from people who have actually used the equipment. Surely I have seen MANY reviews from reliable sources where it was painfully obvious that the reviewer never even picked up the merchandise. The internet is full of such reviews.
That said...
The reason I chose the Canon over the Sony was simple...I find that ALL of these prosumer cameras tend to have very very vivid results. A little TOO vivid if you ask me. Well the Canon has something the Sony does not...a neutral mode which adjusts the color saturation and contrast, thus bringing them both down to a more tame level. Vivid is nice if you are into that sort of thing (as many amateur shooters are) but it's a bit much. Unfortunately, while the Sony has one real nice thing (color compensation allowing you to change the hue a bit) it does not allow you to lower the contrast or saturation. The neutral setting on the Canon does just this albeit in a one step fashion. I find this extremely priceless. As I have also stated, I found the Canon lens to be the best of the three, especially in low light. Doing a side by side comparison the Canon just looked noticeably better.
Panasonic workflow...
Trying to do a transfer OR import into FCP just produced "unsupported file" messages, so I ended up using toast to convert the files to prores and also tried apple intermediate codec. Both worked and I was able to do the editing in FCP however when it came time to actually create the blu-ray disk either the program would just go on and on and on, increasing the amount of time remaining by hours (and this would happen whether I was doing several clips amounting to several minutes worth, or just one clip amounting to less than a minute), or I would get a message telling me that something or other was too big (sorry but I don't remember the exact message). I tried converting files at any and all the settings (60p, 60i, whatever...everything) and it made no difference whatsoever. After hours of trying to get just one clip onto a blu-ray disk I finally gave up figuring that even if I did find the solution to this problem that I would still have to deal with the 2 other issues with this camera (the image stabilization and the sharpness). Again, don't get me wrong, the image stabilization and sharpness were NOT major issues, but them combined with the FCP issue was just a deal breaker for me.
As a final note, soneone here made a comment about it being unfair of me to reject the 60p as this is where this camera does its best...well this is very true, however if I cannot use 60p when burning to blu-ray, it is of no use to me. I didn't try this camera thinking that I would use it at 60p. My comments are based on what I and anyone burning to blu-ray WILL use it for, and since 60p is not a useable option on a blu-ray, I do not take it serisously. For what its worth I DID create several clips at 60p just to compare them once converted to either prores or apple intermediate and once again, never did get to the point where I could compare anything..since I could not create any disk.
At any rate, these are my findings, take them or leave them. If they don't agree with yours, so be it. Frankly I don't think I should have to find it necessary to run my findings by those who feel this camera is the best on the market before I make them. If you don't like my findings, fine. Reject them if you like, but please don't question my integrity. I am NOT trying to bash the Panasonic at all. I TRULY WISH it was up to the job because I DID want it to be the one I ended up with and was very disappointed when I had to finally reject it.
californiajay is offline  
post #21 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 01:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
bowmah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
@californiajay, first of all, I don't think you need to apologize for posting your experiences here. I found them useful.

1. What is FCP?

2. What is your workflow to create Blu-Ray discs and why can't 60p be a part of this?

3. You seem very knowledgeable in this realm, do you know anything about the comparisons between the Canon line that you have and the little brother line the HFM series?

Again, thanks for sharing.
bowmah is offline  
post #22 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 01:47 PM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
FCP = Final Cut Pro
I have mentioned my workflow above.
60p is not part of the blu-ray spec. It (as of now) is not possible to create a blu-ray disk with a 60p clip unless you convert that clip. If you do this, you lose the benefits of 60p.
By the way, FCP has provisions for creating blu-ray disks within the program.

For what it's worth, if my intent was to view videos straight out of the camera or by plugging the SD card into my blu-ray player and watching that way (as opposed to editing and creating blu-ray disks), I might then have gone with the Panasonic due to its superior color handling.

By the way, something I have neglected to mention...unless you shoot the Panasonic at 60p, you are shooting at a 17MBPS (megabits per second) rate (at the highest non 60p setting). Both the Canon and Sony allow you to shoot at 24MBPS. Reviews notwithstanding, a higher bit rate does give you better results.
californiajay is offline  
post #23 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

I truly was HOPING the Panasonic would work for me as it does produce the best color of the three and has the best control over things such as color saturation, color compensation, and exposure. I was even willing to accept the fact that its sharpness was not quite up to snuff compared to the Canon until I ran into the issues I had in getting the files into FCP and onto a blu-ray disk.

As I and another poster asked, wouldn't you question your finding about sharpness since it's so totally contradictory to owners and professional reviewers findings? Wouldn't you question your findings when it's totally contradictory to objective measurements? It's most certainly not just a difference with one person's opinion here, it's a difference with the universe of opinions on this camera, both professional and non-professional. That's quite a difference.

If that had happened to me, the first thing I would have done would have been to ask 'what am I doing wrong, is it my camera settings, is it my display, is it my connections, am I arriving at this opinion only when viewing on a computer, have I hooked the cam up to a large screen HDTV where REAL differences in sharpness can be easily seen?' The list of possible failings is endless. But most certainly you must ask these questions when your opinion is alone among the universe of opinions. If it were me, I surely wouldn't think "Nah, I'm right and everyone else is wrong".

Heck, even many Sony 550 owners acknowledge the picture is sharper on the 700, but they chose the 550 for other reasons.

Now can a professional review be 'skewed' as you put it? Surely. But EVERY ONE? C'mon Jay, that strains the credibility. Is this one mass conspiracy? Are owners of even other cameras part of this conspiracy when many admit the 700's picture is the sharpest and best? Are the objective measurements of professional reviewers on things like resolution actually 'doctored' to make the 700 look better? C'mon jay, doesn't that strain the credibility?

You keep harping on editing when the OP clearly indicated he isn't much interested in editing. Besides the fact that the 700's footage can be edited, but that's not the point. The OP has stated it is not a priority by any stretch.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #24 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:24 PM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ken,

If the editing part of all this was something I could solve, I WOULD have tried a different camera! Of course I would question the sharpness issue. But, as I have mentioned more than once, there were 3 issues I had...sharpness, image stabilization (both of of which I had repeatedly stated not to be big issues at all) and the editing issues. NOT just sharpness. If it had been sharpness alone, I would have returned the camera and tried another one.

The OP asked for opinions. He did not ask for opinions that agreed with the published reviews. Even if he never has any need to bring the files into an editing program, I do feel that it is more valuable that he know the issues involved so that he can make an intelligent decision, just in case he changes his mind one day. Don't you? Or do you think it's more valuable to keep that hidden from him?

Should I have just kept my opinions to myself if they did not agree with say camcorderinfo's opinion? Or should I have checked in with you first?

Frankly you are seemingly finding all kinds of faults with me stating an opinion and I am wondering if what I have done was something that you took personally because you have had your prize camera criticized! This happens from time to time from people who find it difficult to accept criticizm of an expensive piece of merchandise that they have plopped down hard earned money for, and it also happens VERY often when someone talks this way to a rep. Do you work for Panasonic? Just curious!
californiajay is offline  
post #25 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Depending on how far back you read Ken's post, you'd think he worked for Sony, and than Canon, and then Sony again and now Panasonic.

I wouldn't be surprised if by next year, he'll be favoring a camcorder from a different manufacturer that he purchased.

Realistically, that should prove that he definitely do not work for Panasonic.



Anyway, to be fair, Mac users do have to go though more loops to playback and edit the footage than Windows users.
Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #26 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:33 PM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The more I read his comments, the more I think he sounds like a sales rep (and I deal with them all the time).

I have one more question for you Ken...

Have YOU done a side by side comparison of these 3 cameras?
californiajay is offline  
post #27 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 32
The PS3 is definitely a good option if you don't want to edit. It plays back footage from every one of those camcorders including the 1080 60p mode out of the TM700.
Paulo Teixeira is online now  
post #28 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by californiajay View Post

Ken,

If the editing part of all this was something I could solve, I WOULD have tried a different camera! Of course I would question the sharpness issue. But, as I have mentioned more than once, there were 3 issues I had...sharpness, image stabilization (both of of which I had repeatedly stated not to be big issues at all) and the editing issues. NOT just sharpness. If it had been sharpness alone, I would have returned the camera and tried another one.

The OP asked for opinions. He did not ask for opinions that agreed with the published reviews. Even if he never has any need to bring the files into an editing program, I do feel that it is more valuable that he know the issues involved so that he can make an intelligent decision, just in case he changes his mind one day. Don't you? Or do you think it's more valuable to keep that hidden from him?

Should I have just kept my opinions to myself if they did not agree with say camcorderinfo's opinion? Or should I have checked in with you first?

Frankly you are seemingly finding all kinds of faults with me stating an opinion and I am wondering if what I have done was something that you took personally because you have had your prize camera criticized! This happens from time to time from people who find it difficult to accept criticizm of an expensive piece of merchandise that they have plopped down hard earned money for, and it also happens VERY often when someone talks this way to a rep. Do you work for Panasonic? Just curious!

Ah, the old 'do you work for Panasonic' question. Let's talk about being 'critical' of other's opinions.

If you know me Jay, you'd never ever have asked that question. I've been on AVS for many years and have no allegiance to any brand of anything. I do video for a living, I have owned two Canon HD camcorders (HV10 & HV20), many Sony HD camcorders including their first consumer HD unit, many others after than and most recently the Sony XR500. I also owned until 2 weeks ago, the $3,500 HD prosumer Sony Z5. In fact Jay, this is my FIRST Panasonic HD camcorder.

The last Panasonic camcorder I owned was an old S-VHSC Panasonic camcorder, the 150. Trust me Jay, I'm sure I have owned many many more HD camcorders than have you. I am surely no novice to this arena.

I say what I did because I know picture quality. I watch my results on an ISF calibrated 60" Pioneer Kuro plasma display, not a small uncalibrated computer monitor. The Panasonic 700 simply has the best PQ of anything out there, bar none...and that includes my $3,500 Sony Z5 (over 5lbs and several times the size of these small cams). After comparing the results of the 700 with my Z5, there was no point in my keeping the Z5 for what I was using it for.

What I am trying to get across to the OP is the fact that your opinion is more than in the minority, it's the only one of its type that I've read....the only one. I kid you not. I think the OP should know that.

You ignored what I said before when I asked if you went through the myriad of possible reasons you saw what you saw. I am not questioning your integrity, I'm questioning the accuracy of your finding. That's a big difference Jay.

Your conspiracy theories hold no water when every single professional review and virtually every owner review say differently. In fact Jay, I have never seen so many owners of OTHER camcorders agreeing that the 700 has the sharpest, most resolute picture. I have never seen such universal agreement from so many circles in the video world agreeing that the 700's picture is the best. That says something.

No Jay, I don't question you, I question your findings. Something is wrong with something you did (equipment or procedures) that made you see what you saw. There is simply no other explanation. It's either that Jay or you're the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong. What makes more sense to you?
Ken Ross is offline  
post #29 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 02:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,249
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Depending on how far back you read Ken's post, you'd think he worked for Sony, and than Canon, and then Sony again and now Panasonic.

I wouldn't be surprised if by next year, he'll be favoring a camcorder from a different manufacturer that he purchased.

Realistically, that should prove that he definitely do not work for Panasonic.

Thank you Paulo. That's what I said in my rather long post. And you're probably right, I may well be touting some other manufacturer's camcorder next year, but rest assured it will be because I believe it to be true.

This year nobody really had to listen to me drone on, there was ample confirmation all over the place. I know I've probably gone overboard this year, but I've never ever been so enthusiastic about any camcorder's picture quality before.

I don't think we'll see as big a jump in PQ as we saw this year with the 700 for quite some time to come. I think we'll need to venture in to the next format before that happens. The 700 is already pretty much at the limits of the format in regards to resolution & sharpness and its color score is about as good as you can get in something under $10,000.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #30 of 176 Old 05-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Senior Member
 
californiajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
>>You ignored what I said before when I asked if you went through the myriad of possible reasons you saw what you saw.<<

No I did not ignore this. I stated that when I found out I could not do with this camera what I had wanted to do and COULD do with either the Canon or the Sony (the editing) I gave up on it.

You are taking this way too personal Ken. Let me say once more...the OP asked for an opinon. I am SURE he knew he could go to any one of a number of review sites and gotten reviews of these camcorders. But he chose to come here and ask for opinions. He did NOT ask for people here to tell him what professional (or otherwise) reviews have said, he asked for user's opinions...and I gave him mine!

Based on what I have seen, the Panasonic is a wonderful camera (and I stated it in my original review) but with faults (and ALL of them have faults...again read my original review).

Perhaps I should have said that "I did not find the Panasonic as sharp, but oh wait there must have been something I did wrong" or something to that effect. Would that have made you happier??

You're taking this way too personally. I am happy that you are happy with this camera. But the one I tried just did not look as sharp as the Canon, period. And believe me, when I first noticed this my heart dropped. I SO wanted this one to be the winner.

Should I have gotten another and done another comparison? Well maybe if I HAD been writing a pro review it would have made sense to do so. But since I was choosing for myself, and again since the editing just was not working out for me, it wasn't worth the time and effort.

Again I am sorry that my findings found fault with your beloved camera. But a guy just came on here and asked for opinions ... OPINIONS FROM USERS OF THE THINGS! I gave him mine. That's all. Why don't you spend more time giving HIM YOUR opinions of what YOU have found with it rather than finding issue with what I say about it? Again, I DO think it would be helpful if you can get a hold of the Canon and Sony and compare them side by side...who knows, maybe you might find out something about any or all of them.

Lets give it a rest now Ken, please. For what it's worth, the OP PMed me stating that he was looking for something he could use to create DVDs from! So all this about me 'harping' on the editing issue HAS become an issue hasn't it.
californiajay is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off