Panasonic xx700 Jittering/shaking issue - AVS Forum

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Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
08:16 AM Liked: 10
post #1 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 157
Joined: Nov 2009
I created his thread to discuss the problems some people have been having with these camcorders, when shooting from a tripod at angles greater than 45º up or down.

Model: European (comes from the UK) TM700

At first I tested this on a 52" and could not find any problem, but two days later I tested again and I noticed it.

My previous posts on this.
Quote:
Well, this had to happen. I recorded more clips and then reviewed them on my computer. I didn't see any difference between "p" and "i" modes. But I did see the wobbling.

iA and Manual mode behave in the same way.
OIS modes show the wobbling. OIS off shows wobbling, but in a smaller magnitude.
Manual focus / OIS off seemed to eliminate the wobbling.

I also tried to zoom in and strangely, zooming seems to eliminate the wobbling. I'll have to make more tests, with better targets, I need a calibration card.

I don't have a clue why watching the live feed in my 52" didn't show any wobbling. I'll have to check again on the 52", watching the live feed and recording at the same time.

Quote:
Done some more 90ºdown tests.

Zoom level seems irrelevant. The jittering is the same. It's like the OIS is working when it should be not. I've watched closely on my 52" and the image was oscillating by 2 or 3 pixels at wide, 12x, 18x and 30x.

Sometimes the jittering was less severe

I did found another interesting thing. With the camcorder pointing straight down I would level it and lock the tripod immediately. After a second or so, the image would move in a circular panning motion for a brief moment and then it would be rock solid. Sometimes it would happen, sometimes not.

mts file showing the strange motion

Quote:
Andre, I hadn't noticed it also on a 52". But yesterday I made more tests and I can see it. It does not seem like focus hunting, it looks as if something is oscillating, the lenses or the capture chips.
I watched closely on the 52" while connected to the camcorder and I could see a 2 or 3 pixels oscillation. If I zoom in till 30x the same oscillation occurs. It does not seem to be zoom dependent.

If I leave the camcorder pointing down for a while, without touching it or the tripod, the oscillation continues unaffected . One would expect if to stop if it was some kind of "loose" element swinging. This observation suggests some kind of active disturbance caused by some element. I would guess some problem with the O.I.S. that's malfunctioning in these angles.

This problem occurs even in manual focus, with O.I.S. turned off.


Today I talked to the Portuguese Panasonic technical center. Monday I'll drop off my camcorder and tripod there for them to make some tests and report to Panasonic.
myg's Avatar myg
08:23 AM Liked: 10
post #2 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 187
Joined: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup. I sent that link to a friend who also does video professionally and he couldn't see the vibration either. Odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotase View Post

I watched these 2 videos over and over again, really straining to see this 'shake'. On the outdoor one I see a millisecond shake at the beginning (which for all we know maybe from the the operator pressing the start record button). After that nothing. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub View Post

Wow, that is unbelievable that anybody could say they do not see that shaking in that vimeo video of the 700 footage shot downwards!


Hi, all!

This post is for those who want to make the most of this camcorder

Thank you for your time! Some people watched my links with shaking video
and discussed this issue.

Let's see several main arguments of this discussion:

1). I did not see any shaking, vibration of video that you have posted on vimeo. This is because of:
a) there is no vibration at all
b) some people can see it, or some people cannot see it. This issue is user specific.


Did you watch a video on Vimeo in small preview window, or you have downloaded a full clip and played it on Full screen LCD\\Plazma?

Sorry, I did not inform you how to watch this video. On all my videos the initial shaking (1-2 sec) is a shaking when I press a REC button.
Like on this video of user that I have found recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbX9w6__XNg

First a man press REC button, then after a couple of sec. a video stabilized and shakes automatically.

All people see this issue on Full screen LCD\\Plazma (they downloaded a native mts-file from Vimeo) and only few people
can see it in small size preview window. I think this is normal.

FOR ALL WHO DID NOT SEE SHAKING on my clips, please,
see a clip of a man who first found this issue and arranged video more professionally:
http://vimeo.com/12672873

2.) This is an illusion because of all professional reviews did not notice a shaking video at all in this model of camcorder.

Please, show me a professional review that checked this camcorder on tripod with 45... 90 degrees of shooting. It's very easy to imagine the situation when you shoot from tripod a Cathedral (upward shooting) or valley from the hill (downward shooting). All reviews check only a horizontal shooting!

In my country, I have posted an issue on video forum , and professional video reviewers answered me that they checked this camcorder and did not notice any shaking. But 2 days ago one of them posted a message: Yes, there is a shaking of video on tripod with shooting downward at 90 degrees. I will check other degrees on Saturday. How did I miss this issue before?

3) Why only few people noticed this issue?

This is because ~ 90 % people use hand shooting and rarely tripod shoot.
When you see a low-frequency vibration of video (hand shooting) on the screen you never notice a high-frequency vibration video at a time!

4)Why I should care about fan noise and video shaking? All camcorders have disadvantages.

So, there are disadvantages that can be walk around. For example, fan noise.
You can:
a) buy external mic
b) change record level
c) use audio restoration software to remove fan noise, such as izotopeRX software.

But you can not remove video shaking in Panasonic TM 700 when shooting from tripod at non-horizontal positions, because turning OF and ON O.I.S did not help!

5)What next?
If Panasonic will notice a feedback from users, may be a future firmware update will help (if this is a firmware issue).
LuxZg's Avatar LuxZg
09:17 AM Liked: 10
post #3 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 269
Joined: Mar 2010
Could I just suggest something to all people posting their results?

Post your:
- cam model (TM/HS/SD)
- PAL/NTSC
- recording settings (1080i/1080p, OIS on/off, manual focus on/off etc)
- recording medium (HDD/internal flash/SD)
- and as much additional info that you think could help

Thanks!
Jay968's Avatar Jay968
09:19 AM Liked: 12
post #4 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 294
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I have tried 3 of these HDC-TM700 camcorders and have seen the shake in each one. I saw it on a Sony camcorder a few years back and eventually rejected that camcorder for that reason.
On the Panasonic, it appears that the shake is there when I hand hold the camcorder but not when it's on a tripod. It also makes no difference whether I hold it at an angle or not. Sorry if this contradicts what others have said, but it is what I have observed. For this reason, I attribute it to an imperfection in the image stabilization. I also have used a Canon HFS21 which does not have the issue.
Is it a big enough problem with the Panasonic to reject this camera? Frankly I am not sure. What I have seen is that each and every camcorder seems to have both strong and weak points, and this just happens to be one of the cons of the Panasonic.
For what it's worth, it is difficult to notice on a computer monitor, but on a large screen tv it should be quite obvious to anyone but a casual observer.
BTW I have seen this in either stabilization mode. Frankly I haven't looked at it with stabilization turned off.
ratdoc's Avatar ratdoc
10:06 AM Liked: 10
post #5 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 52
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxZg View Post

Could I just suggest something to all people posting their results?

Post your:
- cam model (TM/HS/SD)
- PAL/NTSC
- recording settings (1080i/1080p, OIS on/off, manual focus on/off etc)
- recording medium (HDD/internal flash/SD)
- and as much additional info that you think could help

Thanks!

Yeah, I've got it on a NTSC TM700 purchased May in 1080i or 1080p recording to a SD card. The jitter starts at about ±55 degrees and doesn't depend on zoom level, OIS mode, or whether the image is stable or has a moving component. Haven't tried the manual focus yet, but I'll let you know.
mikek753's Avatar mikek753
10:31 AM Liked: 12
post #6 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 545
Joined: Mar 2006
pls. define test case
that everyone who wants to contribute
can reproduce it or not in the same steps

my understanding:
use paper with grid lines
1. tripod 45 degree 60p and 60i for 1 min
2. tripod 90 degree / vertical 60p and 60i for 1 min
billdag's Avatar billdag
02:03 PM Liked: 67
post #7 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 525
Joined: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djizasse View Post

I created his thread to discuss the problems some people have been having with these camcorders, when shooting from a tripod at angles greater than 45º up or down.

Model: European (comes from the UK) TM700

At first I tested this on a 52" and could not find any problem, but two days later I tested again and I noticed it.

My previous posts on this.







Today I talked to the Portuguese Panasonic technical center. Monday I'll drop off my camcorder and tripod there for them to make some tests and report to Panasonic.

Thanks Djizasse,
I believe this issue is getting to be big enough to get its own thread. I will post all my future comments re: this issue here. One observation I made yesterday - I looked and looked and looked and could not find anywhere in the menu system where there is a provision for firmware update. Can anyone verify that Panasonic camcorders can be updated despite not having a menu item for it? Has anyone ever updated the firmware on this or any other Panasonic camcorder? I ask this because I had an LCD TV a few years ago with a major bug in it BUT there was no way to update drivers or firmware. I hope it's not the case here.
myg's Avatar myg
02:32 PM Liked: 10
post #8 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 187
Joined: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by billdag View Post

Thanks Djizasse,
I believe this issue is getting to be big enough to get its own thread. I will post all my future comments re: this issue here. One observation I made yesterday - I looked and looked and looked and could not find anywhere in the menu system where there is a provision for firmware update. Can anyone verify that Panasonic camcorders can be updated despite not having a menu item for it? Has anyone ever updated the firmware on this or any other Panasonic camcorder? I ask this because I had an LCD TV a few years ago with a major bug in it BUT there was no way to update drivers or firmware. I hope it's not the case here.


I have only updated my Panasonic BD-60 Blu-Ray player.
There is no option in menu to update firmware, because the procedure is to burn firmware on CD-R, insert it in drive and reboot player. When player starts, the firmware update starts.

See, how many updates of this player since 2009: http://panasonic.jp/support/global/c...d60/index.html

From Panasonic site:
=================================================
Q:I saw a notice on Panasonic's web site that a firmware update was available for my camera. What is a "firmware update" and is it important that I install it?

A:Firmware is the camera's internal software that runs the camera. Panasonic may occasionally add a new feature to the camera, or if we discover a minor problem after the camera started selling Panasonic may issue new firmware to make the necessary changes. Any new firmware release includes a description of the changes it makes. If you are having the problem it corrects, or if you want to add the new feature, follow the instructions and install the update. You should always begin the firmware update usong a fully charged battery.
=====================================================
Jay968's Avatar Jay968
04:08 PM Liked: 12
post #9 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 294
Joined: Jun 2010
If I may update what I stated this morning. I have done some more shooting with my TM-700 and have noticed that indeed the jittering takes place only when I aim the camera downwards, at least 45 degrees or more. However, it still seems to happen only when I hand hold it and NOT when on a tripod!!

I do think it has something to do with my own hand movement combined with what the stabilizer is trying to do to adjust for that. It is not my own movement alone. As I stated earlier I also own an HFS21 and in doing some comparisons, I do not see the jitter take place at all with that camera.
biomedtech's Avatar biomedtech
05:34 PM Liked: 10
post #10 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 144
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do you wonder if muscle movement is contributing to a condition that Panny's stabilization is confusing with image movement?
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
05:38 PM Liked: 10
post #11 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 157
Joined: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay968 View Post

Is it a big enough problem with the Panasonic to reject this camera? Frankly I am not sure.

For me it's not. That's what I've said to a friend and my wife. I love this camcorder's image. The colors seem so true, even in my indoor low-light conditions, that I don't really care that I won't be able to shoot at greater angles than 45º.

I do care about the problem because there's always the possibility of it getting worse. While I don't mind not to use greater angles than 45º, if in the future the problem develops for smaller angles, then I would be pissed.

I hope that a firmware fix can solve this.
Jay968's Avatar Jay968
07:00 PM Liked: 12
post #12 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 294
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Well it is possible that some kind of movement on my part is contributing. On the other hand though, most everyone reporting this problem besides me are seeing it happen when the camera is on a tripod. So I don't know!
For what it's worth, I was shooting with my Canon this evening and once or twice heard a strange sort of grinding sound which lasted maybe a quarter of a second or so. Well, when I played the footage back, I noticed the same kind of jittering at the spots where I remembered the sound that Ive seen from the Panny!!
This all just HAS to be stabilizer related!
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross
07:32 PM Liked: 1540
post #13 of 187
07-01-2010 | Posts: 24,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay968 View Post

I have tried 3 of these HDC-TM700 camcorders and have seen the shake in each one. I saw it on a Sony camcorder a few years back and eventually rejected that camcorder for that reason.
On the Panasonic, it appears that the shake is there when I hand hold the camcorder but not when it's on a tripod. It also makes no difference whether I hold it at an angle or not. Sorry if this contradicts what others have said, but it is what I have observed. For this reason, I attribute it to an imperfection in the image stabilization. I also have used a Canon HFS21 which does not have the issue.
Is it a big enough problem with the Panasonic to reject this camera? Frankly I am not sure. What I have seen is that each and every camcorder seems to have both strong and weak points, and this just happens to be one of the cons of the Panasonic.
For what it's worth, it is difficult to notice on a computer monitor, but on a large screen tv it should be quite obvious to anyone but a casual observer.
BTW I have seen this in either stabilization mode. Frankly I haven't looked at it with stabilization turned off.

Jay, the problem with your theory is that nobody has reported this hand held issue when watching on a big screen HDTV. This cam has been out for awhile now and many have come here to report their observations.

I've got a 60" Pioneer and never noticed the shaking in any of the videos I've shot. It's also hard to see a subtle shake when the hand holding of almost any camcorder will cause a greater shake than the ones being seen at significant angles when tripod mounted. At least that's the way I see it
biomedtech's Avatar biomedtech
08:08 PM Liked: 10
post #14 of 187
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I know this goes off topic, but I see artifacts from my Panny XXXX (not the 700) that are probably limitations on the sensors. It took a 1080P display to really make it noticeable.

It's not what I consider to be grain or video noise, but (visually)resembles a clear peace of plastic I don't see unless the environment is not bright enough to mask it. Since discovering this 'clear' distortion, I try to use the camcorder only where all the reviewers say it performs best.

Is that a engineering flaw, or just the limitation of consumer gear? No one wants to know.
Jay968's Avatar Jay968
09:37 PM Liked: 12
post #15 of 187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Jay, the problem with your theory is that nobody has reported this hand held issue when watching on a big screen HDTV. This cam has been out for awhile now and many have come here to report their observations.

I've got a 60" Pioneer and never noticed the shaking in any of the videos I've shot. It's also hard to see a subtle shake when the hand holding of almost any camcorder will cause a greater shake than the ones being seen at significant angles when tripod mounted. At least that's the way I see it

Yes I understand that Ken, but...

The reason I brought up the fact that it's easier to see on a larger screen is because it's possible that it is more wide spread than people are aware of (I don't know) and maybe those who are not viewing on larger screens aren't even aware of it happening at all.

If you haven't seen it, I can understand that too. I have shot an awful lot where I have not seen it at all either. But when it's there (and again, I have discovered that I have seen it only when pointing the cam down at least 45 percent or so) it's unmistakable to me. I am still not sure if it's a big deal as it seems it can be avoided by just not pointing the camera downward. Even if I do and it happens, it's not the end of the world. I can live with it.
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
05:56 PM Liked: 10
post #16 of 187
07-02-2010 | Posts: 157
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Update from Trafalgar:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar_Law View Post

Update to my issue:

Panasonic service center called me this evening and they told me that they have tested with some of TM-700 and HS-700. All of them are shaking! However, there is no information about this in the support knowledge base yet so it is beyond their responsibility. They've just sent this case up to Panasonic HQ in Japan. The issue was sent on Friday evening so I have to wait till next week to get the next response.


myg's Avatar myg
09:18 AM Liked: 10
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07-03-2010 | Posts: 187
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Good info. If the service center confessed to problem, then Panasonic have to answer.
Jay968's Avatar Jay968
11:26 AM Liked: 12
post #18 of 187
07-03-2010 | Posts: 294
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I have decided to return mine until they get this worked out. Frankly I think there just may be too many very small but nagging issues with this camera (the jittering, and the fan noise being two of them). I also find the AF to be a bit slow and while I find the color to be very nice in this camera, it isn't perfect either.

Oh well, I hope Panasonic works out this jitter issue soon. At that point I will come on back.
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
06:01 PM Liked: 10
post #19 of 187
07-03-2010 | Posts: 157
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If you can't live with it and need to shoot on those angles, I think you took the right decision. Please inform the store on the basis of your decision.
latreche34's Avatar latreche34
01:48 AM Liked: 26
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07-05-2010 | Posts: 326
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Is this shaking issue with TM700 only or HS700 too, I'm planing to order the HS700 from B&H any reports.
myg's Avatar myg
03:57 AM Liked: 10
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07-05-2010 | Posts: 187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post

Is this shaking issue with TM700 only or HS700 too, I'm planing to order the HS700 from B&H any reports.

Yes, in both of them.
We are waiting a response from Panasonic service these days.
myg's Avatar myg
04:03 AM Liked: 10
post #22 of 187
07-05-2010 | Posts: 187
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They have answered to me again: "Unfortunately this is a new camcorder and we have no field experience. We have just opened an e-mail discussion about this issue with Panasonic Japan"
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
08:22 AM Liked: 10
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Just left my TM700 and a tripod in the service center. Now I'll wait.
mikek753's Avatar mikek753
05:13 PM Liked: 12
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07-05-2010 | Posts: 545
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I tested my tm700 today and I have shaking at 45 and vertical as well
at horizontal it's stable.
I used tripod.
Yes, it's very strange effect.
Could it be due to inner fan that vibrate camera off horizontal position?

I have tm700 under 30 days and start thinking about return it :-(
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
05:29 PM Liked: 10
post #25 of 187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikek753 View Post

Could it be due to inner fan that vibrate camera off horizontal position?

That crossed my mind today. Anybody care to try and stick a (strong) needle in the fan? Do it with the camcorder OFF and then turn it on.
latreche34's Avatar latreche34
07:05 PM Liked: 26
post #26 of 187
07-05-2010 | Posts: 326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Yes, in both of them.
We are waiting a response from Panasonic service these days.

OOOOh, I was going for the HS with hard drive because I don't want to be limited to 4GB file chunks, but after reading about all the bad thing such as shaking, fan noise, battery close to the face, changing camera mode to delete diffrent types of files, I will just wait for the next model, or other brnd that comes out with 60p, thank you guys for saving me a 1000 bucks.
rich121's Avatar rich121
02:07 AM Liked: 10
post #27 of 187
07-06-2010 | Posts: 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post

OOOOh, I was going for the HS with hard drive because I don't want to be limited to 4GB file chunks, but after reading about all the bad thing such as shaking, fan noise, battery close to the face, changing camera mode to delete diffrent types of files, I will just wait for the next model, or other brnd that comes out with 60p, thank you guys for saving me a 1000 bucks.

"saving me a 1000 bucks"...

It's down to around $735, and quite the steal at that...I love mine.

Rick
Djizasse's Avatar Djizasse
04:11 AM Liked: 10
post #28 of 187
07-06-2010 | Posts: 157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post

OOOOh, I was going for the HS with hard drive because I don't want to be limited to 4GB file chunks, but after reading about all the bad thing such as shaking, fan noise, battery close to the face, changing camera mode to delete diffrent types of files, I will just wait for the next model, or other brnd that comes out with 60p, thank you guys for saving me a 1000 bucks.

Have you tried using HD Writer to import your videos? I'm almost certain it will not split your clips into 4Gb pieces.
And even if it does, there's a simple DOS command that can join those 4Gb files.
latreche34's Avatar latreche34
04:23 AM Liked: 26
post #29 of 187
07-06-2010 | Posts: 326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich121 View Post

"saving me a 1000 bucks"...

It's down to around $735, and quite the steal at that...I love mine.

Rick

I don't think the hard drive model is down to $735 unless from a fishy website, but no thanks I will wait for the next model after they fix all the issues.
billdag's Avatar billdag
09:21 AM Liked: 67
post #30 of 187
07-06-2010 | Posts: 525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post

I don't think the hard drive model is down to $735 unless from a fishy website, but no thanks I will wait for the next model after they fix all the issues.

B&H in NY has it for $755 including free shipping in USA. Very reputable site. Have purchased 3 camcorders and more from them with zero problems. Check them out at Resellerratings.com

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