DVD image file to test 1080p60 playback - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 12-01-2010, 11:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I created the ISO file to test AVCHD and 1080p60 capability of your Blu-ray player. You can get it here: http://uploading.com/files/6a7db5fm/60p.iso/ (slow connection) or here: http://chidragon.thedessie.com/60p.iso (reported to be fast, thanks msgohan).

Use ImgBurn or any other DVD burning utility to burn this ISO file onto a DVD recordable disc (NOT onto Blu-ray recordable!). This will make what is known as "AVCHD disc".

Play this disc in your Blu-ray player and report back the results. Please, report your player make and model, firmware revision and any issues you notice.

The ISO file contains AVCHD structure with 5 video clips. There is no menu, playback should start right away. There are info cards before each clip except for the last one, which is the original clip from then my HDC-TM700:

1) 1920x1080/29.97i, High@L4.0, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.6 Mbps.
2) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.0 Mbps.
3) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 18 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 14.6 Mbps.
4) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 20 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 16.2 Mbps.
5) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, original file from the HDC-TM700. Overall bit rate: 27.3 Mbps.

The first clip is your regular interlaced AVCHD video at reasonable 13 Mbit/s. This should play on any BD player with "AVCHD" mark. The next three clips are 1080p60 clips rendered from Sony Vegas using Sony AVC encoder. The last clip is the original file from the camcorder, unchanged.

The ISO image has been mastered with MultiAVCHD using "AVCHD Strict" profile, and plays on my Panasonic DMP-BD80K Blu-ray player. The last, original, clip plays but stutters: the disc is not spinning fast enough.

So, enjoy and post back the results.
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post #2 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 11:40 AM
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I started the download to try it out and as a "free" download of the 336MB file, it will take 1 hr 13 min on average due to speed restrictions despite my 25Mbps connection.

Ray
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post #3 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 12:00 PM
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Try downloading using this link. It works for most files you can download online although for services that have both free and paid downloads, they put restrictions on programs like this.

This software will make the server think the download is from more than one person. For example if the limit is 100 kb/s and your connection speed is 1,000 kb/s, you'll get a download speed of 1,000 kb/s. They all get downloaded to your computer as 1 file rather than 10. OK enough of me trying to explain it, just download it already. Again, there's no guarantee it'll fully, fully work with uploading.com since some of these services obviously doesn't want free users to get good speed. Regardless, it's definitely something I recommend having.


http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/
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post #4 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I started the download to try it out and as a "free" download of the 336MB file, it will take 1 hr 13 min on average due to speed restrictions despite my 25Mbps connection.

Yep, it is slow, but you can simply put it as a backround task... I mean background for you, not for your computer, and do something else in the meantime. No rush ;-)
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post #5 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 02:47 PM
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I did download it in the background after posting - just mentioning the slow speed in case others attempt it.

Anyway, the results:

Sony Playstation PS3 - all 5 clips, no issues

Pioneer Elite 051FD - all 5 clips, no issues

LG Blu Ray burner in computer, using PowerDVD - all 5 clips, no issues

Ray
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post #6 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I did download it in the background after posting - just mentioning the slow speed in case others attempt it.

Anyway, the results:

Sony Playstation PS3 - all 5 clips, no issues

Pioneer Elite 051FD - all 5 clips, no issues

LG Blu Ray burner in computer, using PowerDVD - all 5 clips, no issues

Did you turn the sound on, did you hear sound breaking? Are you saying that you burned the image onto a recordable DVD (not BD) and there was no stuttering when you played back the fifth clip, at 27.5 Mbit/s? If so, cudos to Pioneer. My Panasonic BD80 cannot handle such a high bitrate.

Thanks for testing!
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post #7 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 03:40 PM
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I did not have the sound on when played back on the 2 dvd players as it plays through my receiver before going to the HDTV and I just looked at the video - I can go back and replay it to check the sound though.

I burned the disc to a Memorex DVD+R using Burn Image. None of the players had any problem I could detect with the video playback, even the 5th clip. Both the PS3 and my Pioneer Elite are blu ray players, I didn't try it in a regular DVD player, though I do have one (also a Pioneer) in the closet.

Ray
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post #8 of 57 Old 12-02-2010, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I did not have the sound on when played back on the 2 dvd players as it plays through my receiver before going to the HDTV and I just looked at the video - I can go back and replay it to check the sound though.

That would be great. The sound is not great, it was windy, but it is the actual sound from the scene.
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Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I burned the disc to a Memorex DVD+R using Burn Image. None of the players had any problem I could detect with the video playback, even the 5th clip.

Cool. I use some cheap DVD-R. I also have Sony DVD+R, haven't tried them. I will try them when I get home.
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Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

Both the PS3 and my Pioneer Elite are blu ray players, I didn't try it in a regular DVD player, though I do have one (also a Pioneer) in the closet.

It won't work on a DVD player. I was just curious whether you used DVD or BD media. I thought that DVD media is the main bottleneck (-R or +R, no matter which type), but it seems that a lot depends on media quality and on a player. Thanks again.
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post #9 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 09:16 AM
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I replayed the clips and the ambient wind noise is there. The first 4 clips play in stereo as expected and the original clip plays in Dolby Digital and shows the date/time stamps onscreen.

Ray
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post #10 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I replayed the clips and the ambient wind noise is there. The first 4 clips play in stereo as expected and the original clip plays in Dolby Digital and shows the date/time stamps onscreen.

Great! These players go for about $100-150 on eBay. Would be really great if you posted firmware version your player is using.

Also, could you clear up the naming. You said that you have Pioneer Elite 051FD. Pioneer's website lists two models: Pioneer BDP-51FD and Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD. So, which one did you test on? Though from what I've read, they differ only in minute details such as gold-plated outputs on the Elite.
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post #11 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 10:59 AM
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Great post Ungermann! I've mirrored the ISO here. It should provide faster downloads; it saturates my own connection at least. Feel free to add the link to your post.

I don't think DVD spin speed is your real bottleneck. Even factoring in added audio bitrate and overhead, it should only need 3x speed to read the data. And if you're seeing stutter instead of semi-garbled data that implies that it is able to read the frame data, if not decode it in time.

I tested with a Memorex DVD+RW on my $50 Blu-ray player (yes, really -- a Canadian "black friday" weekend sale). It's called the Seiki BD660 and mine is the second hardware revision, with firmware BDP V4.2 F6. All clips played fine including sound. The last one has the timestamp burned-in, right?

Played the same disc on my fat PS3, the oldest 60GB CECHA01 with newest firmware, and it stuttered thrice including sound on the final clip...
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post #12 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I've mirrored the ISO here. It should provide faster downloads; it saturates my own connection at least. Feel free to add the link to your post.
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I don't think DVD spin speed is your real bottleneck. Even factoring in added audio bitrate and overhead, it should only need 3x speed to read the data. And if you're seeing stutter instead of semi-garbled data that implies that it is able to read the frame data, if not decode it in time.
With the media I tested with, by BD80 plays first 3-5 seconds just fine, then starts to stutter. From this, I conclude that it first fills an internal buffer, large enough to play these 3-5 seconds, and plays perfectly fine from there. Then when the buffer empties, it starts playing directly from the disc, and cannot cope with data rate. So it is either bad media or bad mechanics or deliberate limitation of DVD disc rotation speed. I forgot to test with better media that I have, I will.
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I tested with a Memorex DVD+RW on my $50 Blu-ray player (yes, really -- a Canadian "black friday" weekend sale). It's called the Seiki BD660 and mine is the second hardware revision, with firmware BDP V4.2 F6. All clips played fine including sound. The last one has the timestamp burned-in, right?
Great, adding to the wiki article on AVCHD.
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Played the same disc on my fat PS3, the oldest 60GB CECHA01 with newest firmware, and it stuttered thrice including sound on the final clip...
Seems similar to my experience, though on my player it stutters almost every second on the last clip.
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post #13 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 02:03 PM
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I went back to play the clips again on the Pioneer BDP-51FD (not the Elite, though they are basically the same unit) and found that while the video looks fine on all clips, the audio is breaking up on 2-5. I may not have given them a thorough audio check the last time after checking the first clip and hearing the full audio. Realizing this, I played everything again in their entirety and found the audio break ups. The firmware is 1.69, which is the latest I'm aware of. The breakups on 2-5 are quick staccato sounds of breaking up and could be bitrate problems I suppose. I replayed the PS3 to be sure and it is still good on both audio and video. Sorry about the confusion. I'm playing them both through a Pioneer Elite AVR Receiver and into a Pioneer 60" Elite Kuro Plasma display. The BDP-51FD is apparently not capable at these bitrates after all.

Ray
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post #14 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 06:22 PM
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If you don't mind, which PS3 model do you have?
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post #15 of 57 Old 12-03-2010, 07:28 PM
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The PS3 is a strange machine. When I hooked it up to an old HD TV with component, the motion quality was no different than AVCHD meaning extremely smooth but when I first hooked it up the my New 1080p TV with HDMI, the motion in the same clips didn't looked that smooth sometimes. I've been using my new computer to playback the 1080 50p and 60p files for a while now so I haven't messed with the PS3 for a while, well today I decided to touch it again and to my surprise, the motion was pretty smooth. After that, I finally decided to hook up the component to the new TV and even more surprising, the picture quality didn't seam that smooth.

People should experiment with HDMI verses component and perhaps change the resolution of your screen and see if you'll find any difference. They should also try changing other settings on the TV. Maybe even slow HDMI cables may cause issues so I'd make sure the cable you have is at least a 1.3 since you probably need more bandwidth for 1080 60p. Plus as you say, it could depend on the PS3 model for some people. Again the PS3 is really a strange machine. I do think that's there's a possibility that all people's units will play the files flawlessly with a firmware updatev but until Sony releases 1080 60p camcorders, they will not benefit from it. They'll just be giving more sales to Panasonic. Then again, they'll be selling more PS3's.

I still haven't tried Ungermann experiment yet but I might by tomorrow.
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post #16 of 57 Old 12-13-2010, 05:47 PM
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I tried this on the PS3 Slim.

Clips 1 through 4 play perfectly.

Clip 5 plays ok for until about 1/2 way through, then I got two brief sound dropouts with video stutter.

I have not been able to get Panasonic 1080/60p videos to play successfully on my PS3 (either the old "fat" version or the new Slim) except for very short clips. The clips on this disc are not long enough for this to happen, but the two stutterings towards the end are what happens when it is just about to go bad.

They all start out playing fine and eventually turn into a stuttering mess. If you have the information bar up the bit rate plummets from ~28Mbps to ~8Mbps when the stuttering starts.
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post #17 of 57 Old 12-13-2010, 07:44 PM
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I think that you should be cautious about such experiments.

I have a TM700 and the *.mts files play well on my slim PS3 through the USB port or from the HDD (the slim line has no SD card slot) for about 60 seconds or so. And then the sound starts to jutter and then the image. At least I get 5.1 sound.

When I play the file through a mini-HDMI direct from the camera, there's no judder (stutter?) but only stereo - no 5.1. The image was excellent.

My best success was with my PC using Splash and a HDMI-out although to my eye, the image was not as good as directly from the TM700 via mini-HDMI. (I test on a 52" Samsung 1920x1080 at 60Hz.)

----

I have been through this before with AVCHD files. Many variables come into play. Worse, a small file will work well but a large file will not. If you test with small files, you falsely think that all is fine.

In testing the PS3, check the display info and watch the Mbps rate. In my case, when playing the TM700 *.mts files from the HDD, it shows 30-34 Mbps at first and then collapses to 10 Mbps rates and the jutter starts.

----

Last point, if I understand properly, Ungermann created these files in the OP using Sony Vegas 10. Was that Platinum or Pro? It seems to me that Platinum renders the original 60p files at 28 Mbps into standard AVCHD 60i files at 25 Mbps (although I could be wrong). I would test rather with original *.mts files from the TM700.

I have ordered a CX550V and I want to check largish files generated with both camcorders. Maybe I will upload some files.
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post #18 of 57 Old 12-14-2010, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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August, please read carefully first before criticizing. There are five clips. The last clip is native, not re-rendered. It is an MTS file straight from the camera, bit by bit. The only difference from the original memory card is that I authored the disc image using MultiAVCHD. Some users have reported that they could not play the original memory card in their Panasonic BD-80 or BD-60 player. I can play the card that I have authored with MultiAVCHD in my BD-80 player with native, non re-rendered clips on it at full speed with no stutter. This disc image that I made also plays by the BD-80, but it stutters when playing the high-bitrate native clip.
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post #19 of 57 Old 12-14-2010, 11:32 AM
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Though it would be interesting to report that only the first file plays well on my Mac Mini Aluminum using VLC player. All the other ones stutter. I suspect VLC is the source of the problem, but I don't know of any other video players for Mac that could handle/play these files correctly...(I'm relatively new to the Mac)

I mounted the ISO file as a virtual DVD using DiskImageMounter app. So the files were read from the internal HD.

Unfortunately, my BD is not AVCHD compatible.
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post #20 of 57 Old 12-14-2010, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Unfortunately, my BD is not AVCHD compatible.

This is sad. What model is that? So, it does not play even the first clip?
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post #21 of 57 Old 12-14-2010, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

This is sad. What model is that? So, it does not play even the first clip?

Nop.

Sort of "outdated", 2 years old Sharp Aquos BD-HP21. Although it still plays BD fine. And yes, it's got the latest firmware update in it. It's just not compatible.
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post #22 of 57 Old 12-14-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

It is an MTS file straight from the camera, bit by bit. The only difference from the original memory card is that I authored the disc image using MultiAVCHD.

Fair enough Ungermann. To be even more honest, I didn't download and test your files since I have been using files generated by my own TM700.

As I say, I have been down this road before. I was an early-ish adopter of AVCHD and at first (say, over two years ago), I ran into numerous software, hardware, codec and playback screen issues. Despite the problems, it was obvious however that 1920x1080 pixels combined with AVCHD compression offered a quantum leap in image quality - and the various issues would be resolved.

In fact, they have been. Standard AVCHD files are now easy to edit and playback. They fit within the Bluray standard and look great on HD screens played through whatever device or media. No jutter, stutter. No audio sync issues. No problems with files longer than two minutes.

----

The TM700 *.mts files are not standard AVCHD and pose software, hardware issues. Unlike AVCHD files two years ago, I suspect that this will always be the case since Panasonic is choosing a standard outside of the norm. Moreover, these TM700 files do not represent if at all - IMHO - a quantum leap in picture quality so the supposed extra PQ does not justify the extra file hassles.
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post #23 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 09:29 PM
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Tested the avchd disk via my 2 players.

No issues with Pioneer BDP-320 with 3.69a firmware. Everything was smooth, no audio drop out. It was even cool since the last clip showed my birthday.

With my PS3 slim using latest firmware version, all 4 clips were fine, no issues. However, on the last clip, it was fine for the first 10 seconds. After this, it would pause for split second, no audio for that split second. It did it ever 3 seconds gap until the clip ended.

UPDATE:

Just read from above that aznative and I have the same experience with PS3 slim.
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post #24 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

The last clip is native, not re-rendered. It is an MTS file straight from the camera, bit by bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

With my PS3 slim using latest firmware version, all 4 clips were fine, no issues. However, on the last clip, it was fine for the first 10 seconds. After this, it would pause for split second, no audio for that split second. It did it ever 3 seconds gap until the clip ended.

IOW virtuosity, you had problems with the only native TM700 clip.

---

Now then, you seem impressed with the other rendered clips. Is it the specs of the camcorder, or the context of the video?
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post #25 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post

IOW virtuosity, you had problems with the only native clip.

---

Now then, you seem impressed with the other rendered clips. Is it the specs of the camcorder, or the context of the video?

Yes, issue on clip 5 on my PS3 slim.
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post #26 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Yes, issue on clip 5 on my PS3 slim.

The first four clips were rendered through, in effect, Sony Vegas to 60i at lower (20?) Mbps rates. (Check the OP.)

I would test only native files from the TM700.

And I would never use youtube to test anything - except to check what my girlfriend's friends will see in the finished product.
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post #27 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post

The first four clips were rendered through Sony Vegas to 60i at lower (20?) Mbps rates.

I would test only native files from the TM700.

And I would never use youtube to test anything.

yup, 16, 18 and 20 mbps bit rates. I'm thinking if I really need 60p. However, the sharpness of the video is what really attracts me plus it's low price(within my budget).
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post #28 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post

The first four clips were rendered through, in effect, Sony Vegas to 60i at lower (20?) Mbps rates. (Check the OP.)

You are not reading carefully, again. The first clip is interlaced, it is proper AVCHD, so should play on any AVCHD-compatible player. Second, third and fourth clips are rendered from a 1080p60 clip with different target bitrate, and are themselves 1080p60 clips. The last clip is the original, used to render the first four clips.
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post #29 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 11:17 PM
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Ungermann, what am I missing? "Encoded with Sony AVC" invariably means that Sony Vegas software was indirectly used.

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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

1) 1920x1080/29.97i, High@L4.0, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.6 Mbps.
2) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 16 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 13.0 Mbps.
3) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 18 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 14.6 Mbps.
4) 1920x1080/59.94p, High@L4.2, encoded with Sony AVC. Set to 20 Mbit/s, actual overall bit rate: 16.2 Mbps.

Frankly, I'd ignore the progressive 59.94 frame rate and look at the Mbit/s rate. Whether progressive or interlaced, the data is compressed the same way and so it's only data rates that matter - other than lenses and capture technology.

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Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

However, the sharpness of the video is what really attracts me...

Under what lighting conditions, and what movement?

If you want a DSLR, buy one. The GH-2 is apparently a good choice.
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post #30 of 57 Old 12-15-2010, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post

Frankly, I'd ignore the progressive 59.94 frame rate and look at the Mbit/s rate. Whether progressive or interlaced, the data is compressed the same way and so it's only data rates that matter - other than lenses and capture technology.

In simple terms, 1080i30 is equal to 540p60, which is not the same as 1080p60. See the difference? With progressive you have twice higher vertical resolution. Depends on deinterlacer, of course, but with progressive you do not need deinterlacer, smart or dumb, you do not need ANY deinterlacer at all. This means that the video will look EXACTLY THE SAME, and predictably so on all displays, whereas how interlaced video looks depends on deinterlacer. Crappy TVs show crappy picture.

Progressive video is fool-proof, it works on any dumb display. Try to grasp this concept.
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