Panasonic xx600\700 bondi blue (turquoise) bias issue - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 04:42 PM
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Here's other videos in which the same guy commented.

http://vimeo.com/11969895
"sad thing to prove that panasonic ND filter buit in this camera produce so bad and unnatural Sky collor it just looks so bad ,this is only thing which pushing me away to not buy this camera if this panasonic just can fix with firmware update"

http://vimeo.com/12078678
"I would still not say that this camera is perfect especially if you ever have point this camera to Sky ? ( this is just one prove but is so many of vimeo each with sky colour recorded have this unreal hue blue tint colour vimeo.com/​11992329 ) what is your comment about Sky false unreal colour taken with this camera? to me this looks worst part so unreal hue blue tint tone it just does not looks blue natural sky colour like canon or Sony ,"
Read the rest of the comments.

Just for the heck of it, read what he wrote under one of his own videos.
http://vimeo.com/17467655


Long story short, their was a person back then who kept complaining about the sky colors the TM700 producers.
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post #92 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

I'm just giving a theory that more people are mentioning it now.
Read this old post from "cameleon 72" underneath the video.
http://vimeo.com/11029448

He mentions that blues are a 'gray blue'...not sure that's really the issue. I also don't agree with him regarding the CMOS's color & overall PQ. Regardless, it still doesn't explain why there seems to be a variation in the degree of this problem. In my camera, I would have described the issue as very minor and not close to the issue I've seen with a number of posted clips. So there does seem to be some variation with the 700s.
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post #93 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Considering the mix of natural and artificial lighting and it was an automatic white balance, you can't fault it.

Regards

Phil

"He can't fault it"? You don't know Ungermann do you?
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post #94 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Here's other videos in which the same guy commented.

http://vimeo.com/11969895
"sad thing to prove that panasonic ND filter buit in this camera produce so bad and unnatural Sky collor it just looks so bad ,this is only thing which pushing me away to not buy this camera if this panasonic just can fix with firmware update"

http://vimeo.com/12078678
"I would still not say that this camera is perfect especially if you ever have point this camera to Sky ? ( this is just one prove but is so many of vimeo each with sky colour recorded have this unreal hue blue tint colour vimeo.com/​11992329 ) what is your comment about Sky false unreal colour taken with this camera? to me this looks worst part so unreal hue blue tint tone it just does not looks blue natural sky colour like canon or Sony ,"
Read the rest of the comments.

Just for the heck of it, read what he wrote under one of his own videos.
http://vimeo.com/17467655


Long story short, their was a person back then who kept complaining about the sky colors the TM700 producers.

Paulo, don't get hung up on this one guy's comments. I recall vividly when I posted a few of my clips on Vimeo, he asked me for a clip with sky because he didn't believe that the 700 could produce a true blue sky. I posted a clip with a very nice blue sky (no green) and that was the last I heard from him. The fact is that comments on this issue were few and far between back then.
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post #95 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

"He can't fault it"? You don't know Ungermann do you?

Gee, Ungermann knows that a yellow car gives yellow tint. But this Porshe is not exactly yellow.

(The Red+Green poster was taken from another website and edited to be more relevant for the subject).

EDIT: wow, MS Paint sucks in JPEG compression. Whatever. The point was: red and green about 50 each, while blue is only 30. Thus, this is not exactly gray. Which is understandable, because the outside light and the garage walls and whatever else stuff in the garage change the color. But why this color has to lack blue channel, like colors in other videos? Is it just a coincidence? The garage walls are white...ish after all, not orange.
LL
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post #96 of 207 Old 02-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Gee, Ungermann knows that a yellow car gives yellow tint. But this Porshe is not exactly yellow.

The bottom line is that in a scene like that, it's pure conjecture to say the camera did a great job, fair job or lousy job. We weren't there, we don't know the color of the garage walls, we don't know precisely what the ambient lighting was, we don't know the impact of the outdoor lighting entering the garage, etc. etc. We simply do not have a reference point and I think it's silly to draw any conclusions from a video like that.

Now if we talk about a sky color, even with the variations that exist in sky colors, we instinctively know when a sky color is right or 'possible' and when a sky color simply looks wrong.
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post #97 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Hi
As a note: White paper doesn't always work that well for white balance,

Have you seen a video that I have posted before with grey card?
I do know that white paper is not a good choice but... see your camcorder's User manual - Panasonic suggests to use WHITE PAPER. I think it is because of the price of Kodak grey card is high for amateurs.

Quote:


I can confirm, using the same pale blue objects for a like for like comparison, now in daylight but still no blue sky weather here:

Ok, I'll wait for your clips.
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post #98 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Here's other videos in which the same guy commented.
Just for the heck of it, read what he wrote under one of his own videos.
http://vimeo.com/17467655
Long story short, their was a person back then who kept complaining about the sky colors the TM700 producers.

Thank you for links.

This info about sky color tint depends on video card chip is very interesting:

"Panasonic rendering sky colour is very bad unreal like hue gone crazy, not real natural blue colour like find on Canon (please note some user watching videos on computer with ATI video cards will not notice much of this sky colour problem I find that ATI vide cards have built in chip and video AVIVO driver auto video corrections in fly which will correct this sky colour problem so buyer will not notice this but on NVIDIA and other video cards which does not this will notice very much ,also some Panasonic viera tv-s have similar colour correction option built in TV called 'Colour management'' if this is switched on you will not notice this problem much ), Video mode choice on Panasonic is very poor why not put more video modes preset for all tastes , some users prefer to have more vivid some more warm some more natural some more cool, so Panasonic why not give us option to choice is very easy today to built this in cam setup menu"
=====
Who can confirm this info? I do see a bondi blue sky on my NVIDIA card.
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post #99 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

1) SD900 - Manual white balance, blues look absolutely spot on (they also look spot on in auto)
Regards

Phil

Ok.

User from our forum reported today that he has both PAL and NTSC versions of Panasonic xx600 camcorder.

He compared: NTSC version almost completely FREE from bondi blue tint on the sky and other blue objects.

Do you have NTSC version of the camcorder?

Thanks,
MYG
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post #100 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 11:06 AM
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Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Thank you for links.

This info about sky color tint depends on video card chip is very interesting:

"Panasonic rendering sky colour is very bad unreal like hue gone crazy, not real natural blue colour like find on Canon (please note some user watching videos on computer with ATI video cards will not notice much of this sky colour problem I find that ATI vide cards have built in chip and video AVIVO driver auto video corrections in fly which will correct this sky colour problem so buyer will not notice this but on NVIDIA and other video cards which does not this will notice very much ,also some Panasonic viera tv-s have similar colour correction option built in TV called 'Colour management'' if this is switched on you will not notice this problem much ), Video mode choice on Panasonic is very poor why not put more video modes preset for all tastes , some users prefer to have more vivid some more warm some more natural some more cool, so Panasonic why not give us option to choice is very easy today to built this in cam setup menu"
=====
Who can confirm this info? I do see a bondi blue sky on my NVIDIA card.

Some rant based on groundless information by the sounds of it. How can the card have "auto video corrections" to make blue sky blue. Never heard such rubbish. Unless they are claiming the card has artificial intelligence and in real-time watches every scene and can recognise the bondi-blu from Panasonic camcorders in sky or other objects and correct it to be blue. How would the card know what is suppose to be bondi-blue and what isn't? Why would they go to the trouble for Panasonic.

This sort of information isn't helping your campaign sound credible and the whole thread seems to becoming full of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_u...inty_and_doubt.

I was always very happy with my TM300, as I've said many times it did have a bias towards this bondi-blue on occasion and your suggested switch from manual to Indoor2 and back again did see a shift to more blue, and I have agreed there seems to be a firmware bug. It never detracted from some great footage and memories I captured with it. Besides I've had camcorders with worse colour problems than that! These are consumer products and are not colour calibrated to be exact, for that you would have to have access to the individual RGB levels and have test equipment to set it up perfectly for every scene.

Camcorderinfo when testing these 3MOS Panasonic range of camcorders show they have the best colour accuracy in their class. So I suspect this is a complicated issue, and probably would largely go away if you stopped looking for it by pointing the camera at the sky and playing about with white-balance The other option is to just sell or return your camcorder for a refund and buy something from another manufacturer.

The SD900 hasn't shown any of the bondi-blue characteristics from what I have seen.

I'm leaving this thread now. I wish you good luck in getting Panasonic to admit to these issues and that they fix it to your liking.

Regards

Phil
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post #101 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post
Camcorderinfo when testing these 3MOS Panasonic range of camcorders show they have the best colour accuracy in their class. So I suspect this is a complicated issue, and probably would largely go away if you stopped looking for it by pointing the camera at the sky and playing about with white-balance.
It may be related to the IR filter. I noticed that when I track an object in the sky and move the camera towards the sun I get bondi blue sky, much more pronounced than I see with my naked eye. I understand that with leaking IR filter I should probably get reddish tint, but as you said it is complicated, so maybe I get both red and green oversaturated.
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post #102 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post
Hi
Some rant based on groundless information by the sounds of it. How can the card have "auto video corrections" to make blue sky blue. Never heard such rubbish. Unless they are claiming the card has artificial intelligence and in real-time watches every scene and can recognise the bondi-blu from Panasonic camcorders in sky or other objects and correct it to be blue. How would the card know what is suppose to be bondi-blue and what isn't? Why would they go to the trouble for Panasonic.
You look like a opinionated man.
If you never heard about something then this is not a sign to people that there is no a phenomenon in nature.

I have a Panasonic Plazma TV and there is a very little blue color shift in my video whereas I see a strong bondi blue color when watching the same video on my PC. The color correction function of TV helps to mask the defect. Some people already reported this info before me. The same situation can be achieved on some PC videocards.


Quote:
This sort of information isn't helping your campaign sound credible and the whole thread seems to becoming full of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_u...inty_and_doubt.
I have supported the thread about shaking\\jittering issue during last 6 months. This is an unpaid work. But I'm happy if I helped only 1-3 owners in the World. I was the first who updated my camcorder and fixed a shaking issue and I have immediately reported there:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post19575077

If I never posted this info then we never see the happy posts like this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post19718794
because Panasonic keeps a secret.

I have posted in this thread also:
* how to avoid the problem by means of "indoors 2" fix
* how to correct a blue color shift in Adobe Premiere without touching other colors.

Quote:
I was always very happy with my TM300, as I've said many times it did have a bias towards this bondi-blue on occasion and your suggested switch from manual to Indoor2 and back again did see a shift to more blue, and I have agreed there seems to be a firmware bug. It never detracted from some great footage and memories I captured with it. Besides I've had camcorders with worse colour problems than that! These are consumer products and are not colour calibrated to be exact, for that you would have to have access to the individual RGB levels and have test equipment to set it up perfectly for every scene.
Did you read my first post in this thread?
I wrote: This thread was created for those who want to make the most of xx600\\700 camcorders.

Quote:
Camcorderinfo when testing these 3MOS Panasonic range of camcorders show they have the best colour accuracy in their class. So I suspect this is a complicated issue, and probably would largely go away if you stopped looking for it by pointing the camera at the sky and playing about with white-balance
Never trust commercial reviews, commercial sites, magazines end etc.
They will never be unbiassed because they write reviews about Panasonic, Sony products and at the same time they have an income from advertising (from Panasonic, Sony etc).

Quote:
The other option is to just sell or return your camcorder for a refund and buy something from another manufacturer.
Thank you for allowing me to sell my camcorder!

Quote:
The SD900 hasn't shown any of the bondi-blue characteristics from what I have seen.
You have always promised to post there your new camcorder's clips and have never posted them. And I know why. You are afraid of your own disappointment. I know that TM900 is good camcorder. There is nothing to fear. I wanted only to compare with results of others.

This site is for ordinary owners. We free of commerce and we can achive an objective results.

Quote:
I'm leaving this thread now. I wish you good luck in getting Panasonic to admit to these issues and that they fix it to your liking.
Regards
Phil
If you wanted to leave this thread why you did not live it without saying the such "well-wishing" goodbye?
Panasonic-Russia promised to answer me and solve the problem (they confirmed problem). After your post I do not know whether share this info with others or not.
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post #103 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 02:38 PM
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Panasonic-Russia promised to answer me and solve the problem (they confirmed problem). After your post I do not know whether share this info with others or not.

Ouch
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post #104 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 02:55 PM
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myg, relax. No one is paid for blabbering on a tech-related web forum.
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post #105 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 06:11 PM
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Well, I posted the video that I took the photos from when looking at bondi blue, one of them anyway, and it is at the following link, though I down-converted to SD for uploading time. Maybe on one of the zooms I can see a bit of it...but, it my opinion, no problem. You may have a different feeling though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJJVfsqXZgQ


Its not exactly a great video, but I was just testing for interest sake. I have not had a chance to do the manual wb yet. I am curious though, if it might have somethign to do with the manaul focus/wb ring? Possibly? maybe not? Who knows. Let me know if you see any, I would be interested in hearing your opinions, if negative, no problem.
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post #106 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 06:37 PM
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I have dual ATI video cards with the Avivio driver, and I still see the bondi blue sky. I've updated my drivers and nothing changed.
So, I don't think the video card has anything to do with it.
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post #107 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havasuvideo View Post

I have dual ATI video cards with the Avivio driver, and I still see the bondi blue sky. I've updated my drivers and nothing changed. So, I don't think the video card has anything to do with it.

Of course it has not.
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post #108 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 07:30 PM
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Message to MYG:

Your contribution to this forum, and this thread, is greatly appreciated. Don't let a few criticizing posts affect you. Not everyone will agree with everyone.
I for one, am glad I came across this thread which you started, since it gave me a temporary solution to my turquoise problem with my beloved TM700.

Those of us who are still following this thread (and we are many) , are looking forward to Panasonic's answer to you about this issue. Hang in there, buddy! Thanks.
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post #109 of 207 Old 02-17-2011, 08:02 PM
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This is an interesting thread. I just bought a NTSC SD600, and did some testing today. I tried four different settings. iA (1), manual mode auto WB (2), manual mode manual WB (3), manual mode manual WB with indoor 2 trick (4). Manual WB was done on a white piece of plastic cover (it looks very white to my eyes).

1 and 2 gave identical color hue, and both are a little bit greenish. It is actually quite pleasing to the eye (more pleasing compared with the manual WB), not excessively green.

3 and 4 are close, but 4 is bluer. So in term of blue, 4>3>>2=1. For sky color, 4 is close to ideal blue sky color, and other colors also look more real (but not as pleasing/pleasant as the auto WB). 3 has a tiny little bit more green. I tried both the wide and the tele end of the zoom, same results. I reviewed the footage on my computer and on a 50 inch Panasonic plasma TV.

My 2 cents...
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post #110 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 03:25 AM
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I'm a owner of a SD600 and consider it to be an excellent camcorder, with the occasional exception of "bondi" blue, especially when pointing to the sky.

To my surprise, while watching this video (judge for yourself) made by Sony HDR-CX550V, I realized or noticed that Panasonic isn't the only one having a difficult time rendering a true blue sky!?




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post #111 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat131 View Post

I'm a owner of a SD600 and consider it to be an excellent camcorder, with the occasional exception of "bondi" blue, especially when pointing to the sky.

To my surprise, while watching this video (judge for yourself) made by Sony HDR-CX550V, I realized or noticed that Panasonic isn't the only one having a difficult time rendering a true blue sky!?




The overall color balance in this video was perfect all the way through. The blue sky will occasionnally become turquoise when slightly over-exposed, and that's normal. The very final second of this video shows a very natural blue sky over a tan bricked house. If there was a bondi blue issue like in the Panasonic models, that final shot would be messed-up.

Let's not get paranoïd with this now... Bondi blue, or turquoise, is part of the rainbow of colors in nature. It's only when there is an unnatural overall bias towards it, that it becomes a problem.

My two cents on it.
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post #112 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

The blue sky will occasionnally become turquoise when slightly over-exposed, and that's normal.
My two cents on it.


Might the primary issue most of these post we are talking about be something akin to overexposure?

Afterall, I noted a distinct change int he brightness in one of the videos I commented on, when going from auto to mwb.

(though, for the record, I personally see this as a VERY minor issue is in the vast majority of clips I have seen)
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post #113 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workinghard View Post

Well, I posted the video that I took the photos from when looking at bondi blue, one of them anyway, and it is at the following link, though I down-converted to SD for uploading time. Maybe on one of the zooms I can see a bit of it...but, it my opinion, no problem. You may have a different feeling though.

Personally I don't see any issue with the sky color in that video, it's believable.
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post #114 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiat131 View Post

I'm a owner of a SD600 and consider it to be an excellent camcorder, with the occasional exception of "bondi" blue, especially when pointing to the sky.

To my surprise, while watching this video (judge for yourself) made by Sony HDR-CX550V, I realized or noticed that Panasonic isn't the only one having a difficult time rendering a true blue sky!?


There was a bit of that issue as the owner pointed toward the front of the house from the backyard, but it may have been more of an exposure problem. I did see the infamous 'blue dot' issue in some parts of that clip.

More disturbing for me was another video from that same owner (U City Neighborhood scenery) that showed, what I feel, are unnatural greens in some of the Sony cams. I had the same issue with a few of my small handicams.
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post #115 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

myg, relax. No one is paid for blabbering on a tech-related web forum.

Ungermann, sorry for my broken English.
I have just wanted to say it is a good will.
This is my reaction on the post like this:

"ymed or should we call you myg, are you on a mission from sony HQ ???"

Full post there:http://www.avforums.com/forums/13781959-post19.html

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post #116 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Message to MYG:

Your contribution to this forum, and this thread, is greatly appreciated. Don't let a few criticizing posts affect you. Not everyone will agree with everyone.
I for one, am glad I came across this thread which you started, since it gave me a temporary solution to my turquoise problem with my beloved TM700.

Those of us who are still following this thread (and we are many) , are looking forward to Panasonic's answer to you about this issue. Hang in there, buddy! Thanks.

Hi Alainhubert!
Thank you very much for your post.
I will try to be more cool-headed

Regards,
MYG
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post #117 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVSDude1000 View Post

This is an interesting thread. I just bought a NTSC SD600, and did some testing today. I tried four different settings. iA (1), manual mode auto WB (2), manual mode manual WB (3), manual mode manual WB with indoor 2 trick (4). Manual WB was done on a white piece of plastic cover (it looks very white to my eyes).

1 and 2 gave identical color hue, and both are a little bit greenish. It is actually quite pleasing to the eye (more pleasing compared with the manual WB), not excessively green.

3 and 4 are close, but 4 is bluer. So in term of blue, 4>3>>2=1. For sky color, 4 is close to ideal blue sky color, and other colors also look more real (but not as pleasing/pleasant as the auto WB). 3 has a tiny little bit more green. I tried both the wide and the tele end of the zoom, same results. I reviewed the footage on my computer and on a 50 inch Panasonic plasma TV.

My 2 cents...

Hi AVSDude1000!

I see that WB with indoor 2 trick works in your camcorder.
I should notice that sometime this trick can produce unexpected results.
See video frames below. First to the left - is the original color of video,
in the center - after the trick, and to the right - after my color correction in Photoshop ( I used "Replace color" function).
The frame in the center has unreal color for that day - trick did not help.


the full image: http://rghost.ru/4409421/image.png
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post #118 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by workinghard View Post

Well, I posted the video that I took the photos from when looking at bondi blue, one of them anyway, and it is at the following link, though I down-converted to SD for uploading time. Maybe on one of the zooms I can see a bit of it...but, it my opinion, no problem. You may have a different feeling though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJJVfsqXZgQ


Its not exactly a great video, but I was just testing for interest sake. I have not had a chance to do the manual wb yet. I am curious though, if it might have somethign to do with the manaul focus/wb ring? Possibly? maybe not? Who knows. Let me know if you see any, I would be interested in hearing your opinions, if negative, no problem.

I think at the end of the clip the sky is bondi blue. It's difficult to say on small sized video... if we had a full resolution video frame from your video...
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post #119 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fiat131 View Post

I'm a owner of a SD600 and consider it to be an excellent camcorder, with the occasional exception of "bondi" blue, especially when pointing to the sky.

To my surprise, while watching this video (judge for yourself) made by Sony HDR-CX550V, I realized or noticed that Panasonic isn't the only one having a difficult time rendering a true blue sky!?



I think the sky is normal. It is only over exposed. Contour light.
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post #120 of 207 Old 02-18-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by myg View Post

I should notice that sometime this trick can produce unexpected results.
See video frames below. First to the left - is the original color of video,
in the center - after the trick, and to the right - after my color correction in Photoshop ( I used "Replace color" function). The frame in the center has unreal color for that day - trick did not help.

Everyone's eyes are different. To me the middle image looks just fine. Geez, my left eye sees bluer, while my right eye sees warmer.
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