Panasonic xx600\700 bondi blue (turquoise) bias issue - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 207 Old 12-25-2010, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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MANUAL WB DOES NOT KEEP ITS SETTINGS in Panasonic xx600\\700 camcorders! (See the bottom of this post)
=======================================
Hi all!

This thread was created for those who want to make the most of xx600\\700 camcorders.

Problem description

Panasonic xx600\\700 camcorders are not color accurate, it seems more cool blue/green (turquoise) bias, this is mostly apparent when shooting skies or other blue objects.
Please, see examples:
1) the blue\\green bias of the bridge on the picture attached to this post.
2) video of color test of Panasonic tm700 compared with Canon Photocamera type 450: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apELtW2hsuA

Will a manual White Balance (WB) help to avoid the bondi blue color?

It's not clear wether this bondi blue effect is connected with WB function or not.

Manual WB works fine, but camera offsets that balance afterwards.

Even after adjusting manual White Balance (WB) the bondi blue color disappears but then returns again AUTOMATICALLY after several seconds or if you turn off camcorder and then turn on it again.
Please, see a video example:http://www.vimeo.com/18058557

How to walk around the problem?

1) Switch to a manual White Balance
2) Set the manual WB by means of WB cap, gray card or expodisc.
3) Switch to preset of WB ("indoors 2")
4) Switch back to manual WB installed before.
5) The color of the sky or blue object will change from bondi blue to normal blue.

Please, see a video example of member Alainhubert :http://vimeo.com/18131842

What next?
If Panasonic will notice a feedback from users, may be a future firmware update will help to solve a blue/green (turquoise) bias of our camcorders.
You know that shaking\\jittering and fun noise issues already solved with a new firmware update from Panasonic.

Sincerely,
MYG
========================================
See a short video clip where a manual WB was set by means of Grey Card.
See how bondi blue sky restores automatically:
http://vimeo.com/19761884
This is whether a bug or Panasonic did it on purpose.
This is a contradiction with User's manual that says (p.83):
"Automatic white balance function may not reproduce natural colors depending on the scenes or lighting conditions. If so, you can adjust the white balance manually."

MANUAL WB DOES NOT KEEP ITS SETTINGS!

LL
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post #2 of 207 Old 12-25-2010, 02:21 PM
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Do you think Pana people are monitoring this forum?

Good time to buy computers and computer parts: NEVER
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post #3 of 207 Old 12-25-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

Do you think Pana people are monitoring this forum?

Definitely not, unfortunately.
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post #4 of 207 Old 12-25-2010, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post


It's useless to try to adjust a White Balance (WB)

Hello MYG. I do not entirely agree with you on this. Because the manual white balance IS working fine. It's just that the camera offsets that balance afterwards. And for that workaround to succeed, you still have to manually do a white balance prior to going through the steps.
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post #5 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Hello MYG. I do not entirely agree with you on this. Because the manual white balance IS working fine. It's just that the camera offsets that balance afterwards. And for that workaround to succeed, you still have to manually do a white balance prior to going through the steps.

Hello Alainhubert! I have corrected my first post according to your words.
Also, please, do not remove your video with WB workaround: http://vimeo.com/18131842

MYG
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post #6 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

Do you think Pana people are monitoring this forum?

If Panasonic will notice a feedback from users, may be a future firmware update will help to solve a blue/green (turquoise) bias of our camcorders.
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post #7 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post


Hello Alainhubert! I have corrected my first post according to your words.
Also, please, do not remove your video with WB workaround: http://vimeo.com/18131842

MYG

Don't worry, I won't. It will stay on Vimeo for as long as a fix by Panasonic isn't provided.
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post #8 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Don't worry, I won't. It will stay on Vimeo for as long as a fix by Panasonic isn't provided.

Is your camcorder a NTSC version or PAL?
I have told that NTSC version is free of this issue...
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post #9 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post


Is your camcorder a NTSC version or PAL?
I have told that NTSC version is free of this issue...

I am in Canada so it is NTSC. Who told you that?
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post #10 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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One man in Russia that has a NTSC version. I think it was a hasty conclusion from his side.
With your video example you bring out clearly that NTSC camcorder as well as a PAL one has this issue. Thank you for info!
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post #11 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

One man in Russia that has a NTSC version. I think it was a hasty conclusion from his side.
With your video example you bring out clearly that NTSC camcorder as well as a PAL one has this issue. Thank you for info!

You're welcome. You know, I even suspect that the new TM750 might have the same issue...
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post #12 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

You're welcome. You know, I even suspect that the new TM750 might have the same issue...

What your thoughts are based on?
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post #13 of 207 Old 12-27-2010, 11:27 AM
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Well, essentially, the TM750 is not a "new" model, but rather an updated model. And is has the same Crystal Engine Pro DSP in it, with a new firmware to accommodate the stupid 3D thing.

I don't know. Maybe they did correct the bondi blue issue. But since I don't have access to a TM750, I can't tell really.

So until someone does some tests with that model, I guess we'll never know for sure...
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post #14 of 207 Old 12-28-2010, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Well, essentially, the TM750 is not a "new" model, but rather an updated model. And is has the same Crystal Engine Pro DSP in it, with a new firmware to accommodate the stupid 3D thing.

I don't know. Maybe they did correct the bondi blue issue. But since I don't have access to a TM750, I can't tell really.

So until someone does some tests with that model, I guess we'll never know for sure...

I wonder at how people are lazy to check your camcorders and write report to Panasonic. Only you on this forum have checked this issue. We (russian panasonic xx600\\700 user group) have just received a reply from Panasonic Moscow - they have contacted to Panasonoc Japan about this issue. The more people write a feedback to Panasonic, the sooner a new firmware will be released!
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post #15 of 207 Old 12-28-2010, 03:20 AM
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Hi

The same issue also exists on the prior model (TM300 and variants).

There were several people that complained to Panasonic about the issue on this prior model but got nowhere, and disappointing to see the bug hasn't been fixed on the newer model.

The same work around also works on the TM300.

Panasonic need to listen more to what their customers are telling them.

Regards

Phil
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post #16 of 207 Old 12-28-2010, 04:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post
Hi

The same issue also exists on the prior model (TM300 and variants).

There were several people that complained to Panasonic about the issue on this prior model but got nowhere, and disappointing to see the bug hasn't been fixed on the newer model.

The same work around also works on the TM300.

Panasonic need to listen more to what their customers are telling them.

Regards

Phil
Hi, Phil
Thank you for the detailed answer on avforums (I have replied there to you).
Have you ever contacted with Pana about this issue with TM 300?
Have you NTSC or PAL version?
Do you think that work around produces accurate colors?

Regards
MYG
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post #17 of 207 Old 12-28-2010, 05:08 AM
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Hi

I've not complained personally to Panasonic as I tend to use manual controls and so set the white-balance and haven't considered myself affected by the problem of an overall turquoise cast. I have noticed that shots even with white balance set manually that have blue sky the sky still tended to look green/blue rather than blue, but given the nice accuracy of other colours and that I've had camcorders get it wrong in more obvious ways I've just lived with it.

I would say though this work around is producing much more accurate blues and the problem is obviously a bug somewhere that can be fixed if Panasonic accept the problem and look into it. I'm sure the issue is related to the way auto-white balance is producing whites with two little red.

I find the easy way to check the accuracy objectively is to play footage back on the computer, pause it in media player, click the paused picture to set focus and then do ALT - Print Screen, then paste this into Paint (or other package). A colour picker can then be used to sample whites, (with MS Paint click the Edit colour button to see the RGB values) to check for good white balance. This way the display device is ruled out for giving rise to/or cancelling out any colour cast. When I did this using the trick of switching back and to manual white balance and sampling again, the white balance was still correct, but there was more blue in blue items in the test footage and they looked truer to life. So the blue bug isn't directly related to white balance as that didn't change, i.e. it wasn't a case of suddenly more blue being added to everything causing a blue colour cast instead.

I have a PAL TM300.

Try a search on Google for "TM300 green cast" to find lots of references to this problem on the older model. I assume the newer models are essentially the older model with some new features, hence the problem has travelled across to the new models.

Regards

Phil
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post #18 of 207 Old 12-29-2010, 06:00 AM
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My experience with a HDC-SD700(model without built-in memory) is that with Snow & LED Video lamp footage, is that the first few seconds of the footage is Blue but fades away to the correct colour. In my opinion I think this due to a slow acting/decection of WB adjustment setting in the Camcorder.
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post #19 of 207 Old 12-29-2010, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Hi

I've not complained personally to Panasonic

..............

I have a PAL TM300.

Try a search on Google for "TM300 green cast" to find lots of references to this problem on the older model.

...........................

Regards

Phil

Thank you Phil,

I have found today the next post (it's seems that Panny knows about the problem with bondi blue color since TM300 model and did not solve it yet!):



Green Planet, 9 Jan 2010
By
S. Milne

There is a serious problem with this camcorder. When I returned from holiday (the first time the camcorder was used), I found that all the footage that I had shot had a very strong green/cyan cast. The skies looked very unnatural. Now home, I undertook various tests: I found that the Auto White Balance, the Daylight White Balance and the Cloudy White Balance all resulted in the green cast.

I contacted Panasonic. I was told that the engineers were aware of this problem. The guy told me that there was an issue with the Auto WB when the picture included sky! (I've yet to visit anywhere without sky). I was told that the Panasonic engineers were working on a firmware fix. There was no date as yet for the "fix". Until that time, the view of Panasonic was that the camera was working "within specification".



Another thing to add: on my xv color Panny plazma the sky has an almost perfect color whereas my EIZO monitor (PVA) shows the sky in bondi blue color.
It seems that this bug is connected with xv color technique...

See two confirming posts about this issue here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R2IEJ2DHSBUU9S

Regards,
MYG
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post #20 of 207 Old 12-29-2010, 08:59 AM
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Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Thank you Phil,

I have found today the next post (it's seems that Panny knows about the problem with bondi blue color since TM300 model and did not solve it yet!):



Green Planet, 9 Jan 2010
By
S. Milne

There is a serious problem with this camcorder. When I returned from holiday (the first time the camcorder was used), I found that all the footage that I had shot had a very strong green/cyan cast. The skies looked very unnatural. Now home, I undertook various tests: I found that the Auto White Balance, the Daylight White Balance and the Cloudy White Balance all resulted in the green cast.

I contacted Panasonic. I was told that the engineers were aware of this problem. The guy told me that there was an issue with the Auto WB when the picture included sky! (I've yet to visit anywhere without sky). I was told that the Panasonic engineers were working on a firmware fix. There was no date as yet for the "fix". Until that time, the view of Panasonic was that the camera was working "within specification".



Another thing to add: on my xv color Panny plazma the sky has an almost perfect color whereas my EIZO monitor (PVA) shows the sky in bondi blue color.
It seems that this bug is connected with xv color technique...

See two confirming posts about this issue here:

Regards,
MYG

I think since then that same person had been posting on another AV forum, and never did get a response from Panasonic. They had to threaten legal action with the retailer to get their money back.

I've seen reference to the x.v. colour space resolving the problem, or perhaps hiding it? However there must be some bug to cause the switching from manual white balance to indoor 2 and back again causing blues to change. If behaving correctly returning to manual white-balance should restore it as it was before, hence the flashing indicator to show it is a previously stored value being used, and colours shouldn't change. So something wrong somewhere.

Auto white-balance also can give rise to a green hue, so I assume both issues are related some how. Just a shame this problem crosses two different models where it would seem Panasonic haven't listened to concerns about this.

I take it the oscillation when tilted downwards is now fixed on shipping models?

Regards

Phil
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post #21 of 207 Old 12-29-2010, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Hi



I take it the oscillation when tilted downwards is now fixed on shipping models?

Regards

Phil

two people in this thread have wrote recently that their new camcorders are free from this issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19705290

Also, a new firmware (available only for service centers) helped me to solve jittering\\shaking issue (I live in Russia).

After my post about a new firmare a man from Spain has recently posted that he updated his camcorder too:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post19718794

This information gives hope to us that a bug with bondi blue will be corrected too.

Regards,
MYG
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post #22 of 207 Old 12-29-2010, 01:31 PM
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While I do not have the TM700 anymore, when I did have it I noticed a definite over cyan color in many of the highlights...very objectionable. However I concluded that it was happening only when I had the highlight compensation (sorry I do not remember what it is called) turned on. When off, color was much better...maybe ever so slightly towards blue/cyan, but still probably better color than most other camcorders I had ever worked with.

Again I am sorry that I do not remember what this setting is called, but you may want to check to see if it is turned on. When on, I found the color to be unacceptable.
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post #23 of 207 Old 01-04-2011, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay968 View Post

While I do not have the TM700 anymore, when I did have it I noticed a definite over cyan color in many of the highlights...very objectionable. However I concluded that it was happening only when I had the highlight compensation (sorry I do not remember what it is called) turned on. When off, color was much better...maybe ever so slightly towards blue/cyan, but still probably better color than most other camcorders I had ever worked with.

Again I am sorry that I do not remember what this setting is called, but you may want to check to see if it is turned on. When on, I found the color to be unacceptable.

If xx300\\600\\700 models has this issue and Panny corrected a shaking issue recently, then do you think it will be wise to write a JOINT LETTER to Panasonic including serial numbers of owners who want to correct this bondi blue issue in their camcorders?

We have wrote the such e-mail in Russia and collected already 42 S\\N from owners:
http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=29:32964

Some of them already recieved an answer from Panasonic-Russia: "with a knowledge of this issue we have wrote this info to Panasonic Japan. "

I think we really NEED AN ACTIVE FEEDBACK FROM MANY USERS to impel Panasonic to release a new firmware!

Thank you,
MYG
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post #24 of 207 Old 01-04-2011, 11:25 AM
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I think it's a good idea to bug Panasonic a little bit. They should be able to correct the problem, I think. Sometimes this greenish bias is very visible and annoying. Using the tweak is not always a solution, especially if one needs to shoot something quickly using auto WB.
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post #25 of 207 Old 02-03-2011, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all!

See a color correction technique of Panasonic xx300\\600\\700 camcorder's bondi blue color video-frames by means of Adobe Photoshop.

Freeze-frame video and Adobe Photoshop:

Source video-frame:
http://rghost.ru/4129948/thumb.png (small)
http://rghost.ru/4129948/image.png (large)

After color correction:
http://rghost.ru/4129991/thumb.png (small)
http://rghost.ru/4129991/image.png (large)

The same technique can be applied to video movie in Adobe Premiere.

Panasonic! THE COLOR OF THE SKY IS BLUE RATHER THEN GREEN!
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post #26 of 207 Old 02-10-2011, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all!

See a short video clip where a manual WB was set by means of Grey Card.

See how bondi blue sky restores automatically:
http://vimeo.com/19761884

This is whether a bug or Panasonic did it on purpose.

This is a contradiction with User's manual that says (p.83):

"Automatic white balance function may not reproduce natural colors depending on the scenes or lighting conditions. If so, you can adjust the white balance manually."

MANUAL WB DOES NOT KEEP ITS SETTINGS!

Regards,
MYG
P.S. At the end of the clip the fix (switching to "INDOORS 2" and back) applied. It helps to restore original color of the sky.
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post #27 of 207 Old 02-10-2011, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Hi all!

See a short video clip where a manual WB was set by means of Grey Card.

See how bondi blue sky restores automatically:
http://vimeo.com/19761884

This is whether a bug or Panasonic did it on purpose.

This is a contradiction with User's manual that says (p.83):

"Automatic white balance function may not reproduce natural colors depending on the scenes or lighting conditions. If so, you can adjust the white balance manually."

MANUAL WB DOES NOT KEEP ITS SETTINGS!

Regards,
MYG
P.S. At the end of the clip the fix (switching to "INDOORS 2" and back) applied. It helps to restore original color of the sky.

Can we still return it if we had it for 2 months? I still love this cam though, just curious.
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post #28 of 207 Old 02-10-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post
MANUAL WB DOES NOT KEEP ITS SETTINGS!

At the end of the clip the fix (switching to "INDOORS 2" and back) applied. It helps to restore original color of the sky.
Does the color drift away if a built-in preset is used instead of manual WB?
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post #29 of 207 Old 02-10-2011, 03:09 PM
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I am just wondering where my oppinions are at in comparison of other people on this post. The following pics, and the three in the next post, are all taken from video shot. Would you say they exhibit notable bondi-blue coloring?


Also, I have never noticed any WB shift outside, in auto or mwb. Or a shift in mwb inside...will hve to run some tests later, but those sound like legitimate defects.

Finally, the first pic is taken in a different location and different day than the others.
LL
LL
LL
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post #30 of 207 Old 02-10-2011, 03:10 PM
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other 3
LL
LL
LL
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