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post #1 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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For owners of TM700, I would like to conduct some low light test tonight. Based from your experience, what setting produced the best image quality? Can you please share your settings?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

For owners of TM700, I would like to conduct some low light test tonight. Based from your experience, what setting produced the best image quality? Can you please share your settings?

Thanks.

You might want to try out "Color Night Rec". It's available by bringing the camcorder out of IA and into manual mode, and accessible by pressing the arrow on the bottom right of the LCD twice, and pressing the "star over a moon crest" icon.

By be advised that this mode can automatically slow the frame rate to as low as 4 frames per second if needed, resulting in very jerky motion. And the WB is automatic and cannot be changed, but that's the most sensitivity you'll ever get out of the TM700.

Otherwise, IA mode can usually do a good job, within reasonable limits.
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post #3 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 01:45 PM
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Is that any or much different from "Low Light" in the Scene mode (I have an SD600K)?
Thanks.
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post #4 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MMACory View Post

Is that any or much different from "Low Light" in the Scene mode (I have an SD600K)?
Thanks.

It is different. In that "Color Night Rec" will use a noise removal algorithm in real time, and will also drop the frame rate to really low numbers (about 4 fps) when needed.

As for the "Low Light" scene mode (the one with the candle icon) on the first page of the record menu, it will drop the frame rate too, but not lower than 30 fps. And will not perform any noise removal so the result will be a picture as bright in both cases, with one having jerky motion but really low noise, and the other having lots of noise but smoother motion.

BTW, both the TM700 and SD600 are essentially the same camcorder with minimal differences.
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post #5 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

For owners of TM700, I would like to conduct some low light test tonight. Based from your experience, what setting produced the best image quality? Can you please share your settings?

Thanks.

I think its better to adjust manual mode to need

I filmed a friends party in a discotec conditions and had more than acceptable results :

In shooting mode I sift to manual mode and go to menue there I select allow low shutter speed and close menue (of course I keep 1080p)
Second I press F (down left of the screen) and I get FOCUS WB SHTR and IRIS

This way I can get the shutter (SHTR) speed down to 1/25 (means more light comming in).

Then I select IRIS ( steps from full open with maximum gain to full open with zero gain to smallest aperture F16)

You have to adjust IRIS using either your vision or included histogramme

Why 1/25 because it will minimise gain ( video noise ) Usualy I had full open with 9 db

In these conditions moving subjects (dancing ) was not a big problem.



I have seen night shots in similar conditions on vimeo and I can tell the result is quiet astonishing even if it it is far from the quality you get in day time ( you cant extract for example one sharp individual frame in 1/25 conditions of moving subjects)

I tried thesesame parameters in a concert in a church , fast panning was a big problem here (in zoom condtions far away from orchestra)

Hope it can help
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post #6 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I just did some low light test. I took a video of my fireplace that is being lighted up by the recessed lights above it. The recessed lights can be dimmed. I adjusted the lights close to the lowest(20% brightness).

Anyways, I noticed that as we increase the IRIS, the image quality of the video decreases. 15db isn't acceptable to me. It's like ISO 1600 on DSLR cameras. 9db was ok but some details of the fireplace's mantle is lost and it's dark.
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post #7 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

I just did some low light test. I took a video of my fireplace that is being lighted up by the recessed lights above it. The recessed lights can be dimmed. I adjusted the lights close to the lowest(20% brightness).

Anyways, I noticed that as we increase the IRIS, the image quality of the video decreases. 15db isn't acceptable to me. It's like ISO 1600 on DSLR cameras. 9db was ok but some details of the fireplace's mantle is lost and it's dark.

Have you tried slowing down the shutter speed to 1/30 before raising the gain ?
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post #8 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Have you tried slowing down the shutter speed to 1/30 before raising the gain ?

My shutter speed was at 1/24. 1/24 looked better than 1/30 during my earlier test. My camera was on tripod and wasn't zooming too.
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post #9 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible to manually focus this camera? It's because when I rotate the ring, it just zoom in and out.

IGNORE: I got it
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post #10 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

My shutter speed was at 1/24. 1/24 looked better than 1/30 during my earlier test. My camera was on tripod and wasn't zooming too.

Have you tried "Color Night Rec" yet ? (you'll have to get out of "Digital Cinema" mode first)

Accessible by pressing the arrow on the bottom right of the LCD twice, and pressing the "star over a moon crest" icon.
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post #11 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Is it possible to manually focus this camera? It's because when I rotate the ring, it just zoom in and out.

IGNORE: I got it

Yes, manual focus assignation to the front ring is awkward, I know...
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post #12 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is another low light test from my office room.

1/30
15db

Here is the video, http://www.neilcamara.com/drums.html


This is almost 95% close to what my eyes can see right now. It was taken by Canon 50D.

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post #13 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Here is another low light test from my office room.

1/30
15db

Here is the video, http://www.neilcamara.com/drums.html


This is almost 95% close to what my eyes can see right now. It was taken by Canon 50D.

In order to get better results on video with the TM700, try "Color Night Rec" mode. It will get rid of all that video noise.
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post #14 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, retrying the test now
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post #15 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Here is another low light test from my office room.

1/30
15db

Here is the video, http://www.neilcamara.com/drums.html


This is almost 95% close to what my eyes can see right now. It was taken by Canon 50D.



BTW, not to over criticize, but there is some chromatic aberration from that lens on your 50D...
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post #16 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, I'm used to it. It's ok.

Reload the video please, I overwrote the mp4 with a new one. I enabled "Color Night Rec". I also noticed that shutter/iris got disabled. I also had to disable 60p so that I can access exposure and color. Prior to decreasing exposure, the scene became bright and lost a lot of colors.
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post #17 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Yup, I'm used to it. It's ok.

Reload the video please, I overwrote the mp4 with a new one. I enabled "Color Night Rec". I also noticed that shutter/iris got disabled. I also had to disable 60p so that I can access exposure and color. Prior to decreasing exposure, the scene became bright and lost a lot of colors.

Did you try to boost the color level in Picture Adjust ? If so, then I think that's the best you can achieve in video mode with a TM700. This is obviously not a $2000 SLR.
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post #18 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Did you try to boost the color level in Picture Adjust ? If so, then I think that's the best you can achieve in video mode with a TM700. This is obviously not a $2000 SLR.

Yup. That's true. I was hoping we can squeeze more out of it. But I think it's reached its limit. With bright light, I am so very impressed. But it fails on low light.

When I think about upgrading from my 50D to 60D or 7D, I become worried about its focusing when using it as hd video recorder. Once that's in my head, I start to like TM700 again. LOL.

I'll conduct more test for a week and then decide.
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post #19 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Yup. That's true. I was hoping we can squeeze more out of it. But I think it's reached its limit. With bright light, I am so very impressed. But it fails on low light.

When I think about upgrading from my 50D to 60D or 7D, I become worried about its focusing when using it as hd video recorder. Once that's in my head, I start to like TM700 again. LOL.

I'll conduct more test for a week and then decide.


It's a known fact that the TM700 isn't renowned for its low light abilities...
Have you tried a video sequence with the 50D in that same lighting situation ? And if so, was it that much better ? I'd be curious to see that...
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post #20 of 60 Old 12-27-2010, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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50D cannot do video. They made a new version, 60D. Someone said that it feels like a toy though.
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post #21 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post

I think its better to adjust manual mode to need

I filmed a friends party in a discotec conditions and had more than acceptable results :

In shooting mode I sift to manual mode and go to menue there I select allow low shutter speed and close menue (of course I keep 1080p)
Second I press F (down left of the screen) and I get FOCUS WB SHTR and IRIS

This way I can get the shutter (SHTR) speed down to 1/25 (means more light comming in).

Then I select IRIS ( steps from full open with maximum gain to full open with zero gain to smallest aperture F16)

You have to adjust IRIS using either your vision or included histogramme

Why 1/25 because it will minimise gain ( video noise ) Usualy I had full open with 9 db

In these conditions moving subjects (dancing ) was not a big problem.



I have seen night shots in similar conditions on vimeo and I can tell the result is quiet astonishing even if it it is far from the quality you get in day time ( you cant extract for example one sharp individual frame in 1/25 conditions of moving subjects)

I tried thesesame parameters in a concert in a church , fast panning was a big problem here (in zoom condtions far away from orchestra)

Hope it can help

---------------------

Sorry to quot myself

I also made after down testing before night testing : 1/25 with minimal gain is the best I could get from this cam to get the cleanest possible result in term of sharpness/noise. In after down testing my TM700 got better result than my own eyes ( in term of coulour/sharpness/noise)
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post #22 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post
It is different. In that "Color Night Rec" will use a noise removal algorithm in real time, and will also drop the frame rate to really low numbers (about 4 fps) when needed.

As for the "Low Light" scene mode (the one with the candle icon) on the first page of the record menu, it will drop the frame rate too, but not lower than 30 fps. And will not perform any noise removal so the result will be a picture as bright in both cases, with one having jerky motion but really low noise, and the other having lots of noise but smoother motion.

BTW, both the TM700 and SD600 are essentially the same camcorder with minimal differences.

Can anyone explain to me the effect on exposure and motion when it comes to having both frame-rate AND shutter to play with?

I cam from dSLR, here I know that lower shutter in low light give better exposure but also blurs any motion - but what is the effect of framerate on exposure and motion???
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post #23 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post
Can anyone explain to me the effect on exposure and motion when it comes to having both frame-rate AND shutter to play with?

I cam from dSLR, here I know that lower shutter in low light give better exposure but also blurs any motion - but what is the effect of framerate on exposure and motion???
--------------------------
this is a good technical quastion I was asking myself

Rationally how can you do 1/25 above 25 frames per second (pana 700 can do 50 frames with 1/25) it means that 2 frames will proceed before the shutter closes for 50p (Even so 50 is a multiple of 25 not 60 : it means that in 60p countries the lower shutter speed should be 30 is it so ? this is not dslr specification ?)
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post #24 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 04:30 AM
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Maybe it here in a lower light conditions(than dslr spec) that gain is the "next" factor that will adjust exposure
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post #25 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1
--------------------------
this is a good technical quastion I was asking myself

Rationally how can you do 1/25 above 25 frames per second (pana 700 can do 50 frames with 1/25) it means that 2 frames will proceed before the shutter closes for 50p (Even so 50 is a multiple of 25 not 60 : it means that in 60p countries the lower shutter speed should be 30 is it so ? this is not dslr specification ?)
Do not confuse shutter speed with frame rate. They are separate things, but related. You can have a sensor that will scan an entire image in only 1/60 of a second, 60 times per second. That scanning shutter speed can be faster, for example only 1/120 of a second but still at 60 frames per second. In that case the sensors will wait 1/60 more between each frame before starting a new scan of the image.

Obviously the shutter speed cannot be lower than the frame rate because of time constraints. That's why a shutter speed of only 1/25 of a second will require the frame rate to drop to only 25 frames per second. The camcorder could still display 50 frames per second however, by showing the same frame twice before moving to the next new one scanned. That's what is called a 2:1 pulldown. And yes in NTSC countries these numbers are indeed 1/30 and 60p. But there are also other types of pulldowns.

In NTSC countries "Digital Cinema" mode, or 24p, the frame rate is 24 fps scanned at 1/24 of a second shutter speed (or 1/48 for sharper motion), but is beeing displayed at 60 frames per second using a 3:2 pulldown method. (see Wikipedia for 3:2 pulldown more detailed explanation)
In PAL countries those numbers are 25p, at 25 fps in 1/25 or 1/50 shutter speeds.

I hope it's not too confusing? Just look up video frames rates in Wikipedia for lots of info on it.
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post #26 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post
Do not confuse shutter speed with frame rate. They are separate things, but related. You can have a sensor that will scan an entire image in only 1/60 of a second, 60 times per second. That scanning shutter speed can be faster, for example only 1/120 of a second but still at 60 frames per second. In that case the sensors will wait 1/60 more between each frame before starting a new scan of the image.

Obviously the shutter speed cannot be lower than the frame rate because of time constraints. That's why a shutter speed of only 1/25 of a second will require the frame rate to drop to only 25 frames per second. The camcorder could still display 50 frames per second however, by showing the same frame twice before moving to the next new one scanned. That's what is called a 2:1 pulldown. And yes in NTSC countries these numbers are indeed 1/30 and 60p. But there are also other types of pulldowns.

In NTSC countries "Digital Cinema" mode, or 24p, the frame rate is 24 fps scanned at 1/24 of a second shutter speed (or 1/48 for sharper motion), but is beeing displayed at 60 frames per second using a 3:2 pulldown method. (see Wikipedia for 3:2 pulldown more detailed explanation)
In PAL countries those numbers are 25p, at 25 fps in 1/25 or 1/50 shutter speeds.

I hope it's not too confusing? Just look up video frames rates in Wikipedia for lots of info on it.
----------------------------------------

Thanks for help alain
What is disturbing me is this
If 2 frames have to share 1/25 s then each frame will get half of 1/25 duration the result is 1/50 for each frame.
Or maybe frames will just go on independently of shutter speed (like a continius frame) with shutter speed like the main factor of exposition togather with aperture (and gain)
I am realy confused.
Thanks again if you can help me resolve my rational turmoil
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post #27 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post
----------------------------------------

Thanks for help alain
What is disturbing me is this
If 2 frames have to share 1/25 s then each frame will get half of 1/25 duration the result is 1/50 for each frame.
Or maybe frames will just go on independently of shutter speed (like a continius frame) with shutter speed like the main factor of exposition togather with aperture (and gain)
I am realy confused.
Thanks again if you can help me resolve my rational turmoil
I did write:" Obviously the shutter speed cannot be lower than the frame rate because of time constraints. That's why a shutter speed of only 1/25 of a second will require the frame rate to drop to only 25 frames per second. The camcorder could still display 50 frames per second however, by showing the same frame twice before moving to the next new one scanned."

Again, the shutter speed is the time it takes to scan 1 frame.
A frame is a complete 1920x1080 image. (in full HD anyway)
And in PAL mode 50 frames per second are required for video playback.
If it takes 1/25 of a second to scan a frame, then only 25 frames will be completed in that same second of video. But since a PAL television set requires 50 frames when only 25 are available, then each frame of recorded video will be displayed twice during that one second.

Hope it's clear enough this time?
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post #28 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post
I think its better to adjust manual mode to need

I filmed a friends party in a discotec conditions and had more than acceptable results :

In shooting mode I sift to manual mode and go to menue there I select allow low shutter speed and close menue (of course I keep 1080p)
Second I press F (down left of the screen) and I get FOCUS WB SHTR and IRIS

This way I can get the shutter (SHTR) speed down to 1/25 (means more light comming in).

Then I select IRIS ( steps from full open with maximum gain to full open with zero gain to smallest aperture F16)

You have to adjust IRIS using either your vision or included histogramme

Why 1/25 because it will minimise gain ( video noise ) Usualy I had full open with 9 db

In these conditions moving subjects (dancing ) was not a big problem.



I have seen night shots in similar conditions on vimeo and I can tell the result is quiet astonishing even if it it is far from the quality you get in day time ( you cant extract for example one sharp individual frame in 1/25 conditions of moving subjects)

I tried thesesame parameters in a concert in a church , fast panning was a big problem here (in zoom condtions far away from orchestra)

Hope it can help

Wow! I just followed these steps indoors tonight with my Panasonic SDX1 (I know, a completely different camcorder, but with many similar functions). While the lowest my shutter speed can do is 1/30 (after I set the "auto slow shutter" which does not actually seem to do it automatically) I managed to create SIGNIFICANTLY better video than with the IA. And if I use 720/30p I dont even feel bad about losing the fps For some reason the IA seems to create a blue haze, or...I dont know how to describe it, and had significantly more noise. But with these steps the video indoors really popped and was much more pleasing. It had a heck of a hard time with my brothers all black t-shirt, but otherwise looked fantastic! Thanks for the tips!
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post #29 of 60 Old 12-28-2010, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I practiced this morning taking shots of our bedroom and preventing sunlight as much as possible. This evening just about 10 mins ago, I took a shot of our street.

Shutter is 1/24
Iris is 9db
Digital Cinema ON
Shutter Slow ON

Check it out folks. I think it looks better. If we can make this sharp, I'll be extremely happy.
http://www.neilcamara.com/christmas.html

However, how can we prevent the lights from glowing/washed-out?
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post #30 of 60 Old 12-29-2010, 03:02 AM
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[quote=v1rtu0s1ty;19724551]I practiced this morning taking shots of our bedroom and preventing sunlight as much as possible. This evening just about 10 mins ago, I took a shot of our street.

Shutter is 1/24
Iris is 9db
Digital Cinema ON
Shutter Slow ON

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Why not try 1/25 -9db full 1980p manual mode slow shutter on but digital cinema OF
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