2011 Panasonic cams announced. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 150 Old 02-11-2011, 09:11 AM
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I saw that one, but not very informative. Nothing related to the improved low light performance.
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post #92 of 150 Old 02-11-2011, 09:56 AM
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Sorry I wasn't more specific, That is the review I meant. I agree it isn't near as specific or informative as I would like, however; it appears to be all there is at this time. As I am newer to this than most of you guys, was there anything in the review that would sway you or cause you to wait for the TM900 over the TM700, or do his lack of specifics make you distrust his entire evaluation?
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post #93 of 150 Old 02-11-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redeyerebels View Post

Sorry I wasn't more specific, That is the review I meant. I agree it isn't near as specific or informative as I would like, however; it appears to be all there is at this time. As I am newer to this than most of you guys, was there anything in the review that would sway you or cause you to wait for the TM900 over the TM700, or do his lack of specifics make you distrust his entire evaluation?

Nothing much has changed in functionality. 24p is still with 2:3 pulldown. There is no 720p60. There is no AVCHD-SD. A slightly better screen, still not as good as on the Sonys and the Canons. Maybe Panasonic has fixed issues with the 600/700 family (color drift, stabilizer wobble at some angles, fan noise). The new battery is definitely a turn-off, Panasonic shows its greed, it is not happy with people buying Chinese knockoffs for 1/5 the price of the OEM batteries.

If the price will be the same, and you do not care about expensive batteries, then get the 900.
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post #94 of 150 Old 02-11-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redeyerebels View Post
Sorry I wasn't more specific, That is the review I meant. I agree it isn't near as specific or informative as I would like, however; it appears to be all there is at this time. As I am newer to this than most of you guys, was there anything in the review that would sway you or cause you to wait for the TM900 over the TM700, or do his lack of specifics make you distrust his entire evaluation?
I don't distrust his evaluation, but it always surprises me when a reviewer doesn't pay attention to the potentially meaningful changes that have occurred.

The low light improvement that some here are ignoring, if it turns out to be as advertised, could be worth the price of admission in of itself. Yet reading his review, you'd never know such a change was made. I'm certain he never checked that and I suspect he didn't spend much time really testing the camera.

The larger LCD screen is certainly a nicety (we really don't know how it compares with other manufacturer's LCDs until we actually see it!), but not a game-changer and we know nothing about anything changed in terms of color rendition.
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post #95 of 150 Old 02-11-2011, 03:41 PM
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well at least they changed the fan and removed that big question from buyers minds )

"The issue of a noisy fan imposing on recorded audio when shooting in very quiet surroundings has now gone; Panasonic has now changed the design of the fan completely in favour of a smaller, noise-free unit which expels warm air out through a vent in the LCD screen recess. Unlike previous models, this isn't now picked up by those microphone capsules that are positioned on the left side of the body."
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post #96 of 150 Old 02-12-2011, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

If the price will be the same, and you do not care about expensive batteries, then get the 900.

Now you have me wondering if I shouldn't aim for the 700 just for the batteries...... Really though, I appreciate everyone's input, I will mostly use the camera to record the kids but if there were a signifigant low light improvement or other advantages then the extra price would be worth it. I will need to move on one or the other by sometime in April and I am really down to a choice between these two.

On another note, awesome forums and info here..... I searched the web wide for real info on these models, even the 700 and found the info on this forum to be the easiest to understand for a layman, while being advanced and valuable. Hopefully we will see some testing in the US by March sometime, thanks again everyone
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post #97 of 150 Old 02-13-2011, 09:25 PM
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Found a detailed review:

http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/c...HDC-TM900.html


But some of the info I don't understand.

Nice thing, and the bottom, has comparisons
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post #98 of 150 Old 02-14-2011, 09:56 AM
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Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinIce View Post

well at least they changed the fan and removed that big question from buyers minds )

"The issue of a noisy fan imposing on recorded audio when shooting in very quiet surroundings has now gone; Panasonic has now changed the design of the fan completely in favour of a smaller, noise-free unit which expels warm air out through a vent in the LCD screen recess. Unlike previous models, this isn’t now picked up by those microphone capsules that are positioned on the left side of the body."

This isn't fixed, just goes to show you can't trust one persons opinion. I never owned a 700 series to compare but the 900 fan is clearly recorded onto the audio track in a quiet environment when auto gain is enabled and it boosts up the gain levels. You can clearly hear the fan from the unit when it is operating in a quiet environment with your own ears, and so it is bound to be picked up the microphone as it ramps up the gain.

Regards

Phil
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post #99 of 150 Old 02-14-2011, 10:08 AM
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I think he was so impressed with the TM700 that he couldn't think of much new to say about the TM900. May not be noise free but possibly much better. It's true that it's always best to get different opinions.

I'm actually willing to do some comparison tests with anyone who lives around the Boston area and is getting one of Panasonic's new 3MOS camcorder. I'm serious, just give me a message and we'll pick some public places to shoot and put the comparisons online. Everything will be shot in 1080 60p and I'm not going to include the 1/4" chip camcorders because that's a far lower class.
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post #100 of 150 Old 02-14-2011, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post
I think he was so impressed with the TM700 that he couldn't think of much new to say about the TM900. May not be noise free but possibly much better. It's true that it's always best to get different opinions.

I'm actually willing to do some comparison tests with anyone who lives around the Boston area and is getting one of Panasonic's new 3MOS camcorder. I'm serious, just give me a message and we'll pick some public places to shoot and put the comparisons online. Everything will be shot in 1080 60p and I'm not going to include the 1/4" chip camcorders because that's a far lower class.

I'm still trying to decide which camera I will get in March. I'm leaning towards the TM900 but haven't read a review on the Sony and their 1080p60p mode yet. But if I get the Panny I'd might be willing to do that as I'm not all that far from the Boston area. Might be able to get some good shots too.
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post #101 of 150 Old 02-14-2011, 05:09 PM
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I'd also a close look at the new Canons when they come out. Sony has a couple of interesting models, but they always seem to lag the competition these days.
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post #102 of 150 Old 02-14-2011, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I'd also a close look at the new Canons when they come out. Sony has a couple of interesting models, but they always seem to lag the competition these days.

Huh? 1080p60 (Canon does not have it), 26 mm wide angle (waaaay wider than the Canons and the Pannies), native 24p (the Pannies still do not have it), 921K LCD display (the Pannies are still trailing behind), Direct Copy to external HDD (a.k.a. USB Host mode, AFAIK the Pannies cannot do that, not sure about the Canons), back-illuminated Exmor R sensor (I don't care about 3-sensor stuff as long as the image looks good enough, and the older Sonys produced cleaner and brighter image than the TM700).

Last year Panasonic had an edge with FullHD (which it did not develop itself but took from Sanyo), this year Sony has an edge in optics and 24p, while the Canon... hmm, the Canon has dropped to the third place in my book. Sure, the XA 10 and XF100 look great, but these are $2000+ cameras for pros and wealthy amateurs, in sub-$1000 segment Canon does not have anything more exciting than Sony has, except for lower prices of course.
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post #103 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 05:47 AM
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This is why it's best to wait until all the full reviews come in. Considering March 8th is the launch date i'm surprised not to see more hype from the various companies as well as more reviews from cameras sent to the reviewers.
I'm going to go with whatever company gives me the best image. I'd also really love a high bit rate AVCHD and Panasonic is not offering that. I don't care about 24p. I'd never use it. Burning to Blu-ray would be nice with a better bit rate AVCHD but I also want the 1080p60p mode as well.
It's frustrating waiting.
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post #104 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 05:59 AM
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In general I find the Canons produce a better picture than the recent Sonys. I think the competition has trumped Sony over the last couple of years and either the Canons or the Pannys produce a better picture IMO.

As far as 24p is concerned, I could care less. I've never been a fan of stuttering video, so for me it's a 100% non-issue. But just so you know, the HF-G10 (MSRP $1,500, not $2,000) has most of the features of the XA10 minus XLR inputs. It also has a 3.5" 922K screen as well as a viewfinder (important to many people) and numerous manual controls. CCI certainly had high praises for this unit in their recent test and felt the low light was the best they had seen. The low light picture from the Canon M41, $799, (same sensor as the HF-G10) on slashcam is one of the best I've ever seen. So Canon certainly will be a major game player in the latest round of cams.

With that said, I would certainly see what Sony is coming up with, but 1080p doesn't guarantee great PQ by itself. I'm hoping Sony does something to up their PQ and perhaps the higher bitrate coupled with 1080p may be it, but it's no guarantee.

The Panny 900 videos posted by the Russian owner are a bit disappointing in terms of color. It seems to have the same color issue as has been discussed recently.

We shall see, but it will be an interesting spring for video.
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post #105 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 06:16 PM
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release dates?
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post #106 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 07:38 PM
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Slashcam can be a little confusing sometimes. Isnt it by some college students? I totally agree with you on the low light in optimized conditions, but it looks like the auto really drops shutter speed...but yea...at 799 it is def going to be competitive.

Final conclusion from slashcam- Lowlight 600: Good M41: Good

Anyway

Auto Mode links:


12 Lux image of SD600 auto

http://produktdbimages3.slashcam.de/...12_lux_172.jpg


12 Lux image of M41 auto

http://produktdbimages3.slashcam.de/...12_lux_200.jpg


Optimized settings:



12 lux image of SD600

http://produktdbimages4.slashcam.de/...imiert_172.jpg


12 Lux image of M41

http://produktdbimages4.slashcam.de/...imiert_200.jpg
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post #107 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Huh? 1080p60 (Canon does not have it), 26 mm wide angle (waaaay wider than the Canons and the Pannies), native 24p (the Pannies still do not have it), 921K LCD display (the Pannies are still trailing behind), Direct Copy to external HDD (a.k.a. USB Host mode, AFAIK the Pannies cannot do that, not sure about the Canons), back-illuminated Exmor R sensor (I don't care about 3-sensor stuff as long as the image looks good enough, and the older Sonys produced cleaner and brighter image than the TM700).

Last year Panasonic had an edge with FullHD (which it did not develop itself but took from Sanyo), this year Sony has an edge in optics and 24p, while the Canon... hmm, the Canon has dropped to the third place in my book. Sure, the XA 10 and XF100 look great, but these are $2000+ cameras for pros and wealthy amateurs, in sub-$1000 segment Canon does not have anything more exciting than Sony has, except for lower prices of course.

back-illuminated Exmor R sensor ??

What does that do?

I had a TM700 and returned it, was amazing in natural light, but in the house under NORMAL lighting, it was grainy.

Also, did not like the sound, even thou it has "5 mic surround sound"...Did not sound very good to me at all.

The low light is big deal for me, as well as OIS, and the new pano has improved both of those. But open to Sony as well?

Of the new models, which do you think will have the best low light?
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post #108 of 150 Old 02-15-2011, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarguyHere View Post

back-illuminated Exmor R sensor ??

What does that do?

I had a TM700 and returned it, was amazing in natural light, but in the house under NORMAL lighting, it was grainy.

Also, did not like the sound, even thou it has "5 mic surround sound"...Did not sound very good to me at all.

The low light is big deal for me, as well as OIS, and the new pano has improved both of those. But open to Sony as well?

Of the new models, which do you think will have the best low light?

I know you probably dont want to hear my answer, but no doubt ug will jump in. But, I think Canon is the only one that made any significant changes to anything that would have a major impact on low light arent they? Others will improve, no doubt, but not nearly as much as the Canon has.

No doubt Canon will win the low light battle.

I do agree in a sense with the pany though, there is a cut off cusp. If I use just my ceiling fan light it is very grainy, but if I turn on the side lamp in addition it is very smooth, no noise at all. Its pretty odd to see such a clear cut off, in my opinion, but I can usually produce enough light. Heck, at the aquarium there were only two scenes dark enough to create noise, but they were quite noisy...all the others were quite smooth.
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post #109 of 150 Old 02-16-2011, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workinghard View Post

Slashcam can be a little confusing sometimes. Isnt it by some college students? I totally agree with you on the low light in optimized conditions, but it looks like the auto really drops shutter speed...but yea...at 799 it is def going to be competitive.

Final conclusion from slashcam- Lowlight 600: Good M41: Good

Anyway

Auto Mode links:


12 Lux image of SD600 auto

http://produktdbimages3.slashcam.de/...12_lux_172.jpg


12 Lux image of M41 auto

http://produktdbimages3.slashcam.de/...12_lux_200.jpg

I think for a more accurate comparison, I would definitely go with the "Auto" comparison and throw out the "Optimized". I have no idea what they did to achieve 'optimized' and I think most people will use "Auto". Considering that, IMO, the optimized results for the Canon looks worse than the Auto, I truly question their approach in achieving these 'optimized' results.
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post #110 of 150 Old 02-16-2011, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarguyHere View Post

Of the new models, which do you think will have the best low light?

From the data that's out now, it looks like the Canon will be the low light king (those Canon models using the 1920X1080 Pro sensor). By using a native 1920X1080 sensor (instead of a sensor with 10 trillion pixels ), each pixel is now larger and has better light gathering power. The other advantage is that there is no scaling required to achieve the final 1920X1080 output.

The disadvantage is that the Canon will not make for a good still picture capture device. For me at least, this is a non-issue since I never rely on my camcorder to take still pictures. But if that's important to you, you may want to scratch the Canon off your list.
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post #111 of 150 Old 02-16-2011, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workinghard View Post

I do agree in a sense with the pany though, there is a cut off cusp. If I use just my ceiling fan light it is very grainy, but if I turn on the side lamp in addition it is very smooth, no noise at all. Its pretty odd to see such a clear cut off, in my opinion, but I can usually produce enough light. Heck, at the aquarium there were only two scenes dark enough to create noise, but they were quite noisy...all the others were quite smooth.

And this brings up an important point. With some cameras (such as the HF-G10 and I think the M41...though not sure), you can adjust the gain limit of the camera manually. This is important since it will put an absolute limit on the amount of grain in your picture. I've done this with any camera I've owned that allows me to adjust the gain. I rarely if ever allow the camera to go to max gain.

Most cameras will probably raise the gain to about +18db, which invariably results in a noisy picture. By limiting gain to +12db or even sometimes +15db, you can achieve a much better looking picture even though it will probably be somewhat dimmer.

Many cameras make a dimly lit scene brighter than you see it with your naked eye. I've never seen the need for that and it only results in a noisier picture than is necessary. If the camera has no ability to manually adjust gain, you're at the mercy of whatever gain programming the manufacturer dialed in.
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post #112 of 150 Old 02-19-2011, 05:11 AM
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Few days ago HDC-TM900 (NTSC version) became available on eBay for $999.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ARRIVAL-Pana...item2c5ae110db
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post #113 of 150 Old 02-19-2011, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by krzysiu View Post

Few days ago HDC-TM900 (NTSC version) became available on eBay for $999.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ARRIVAL-Pana...item2c5ae110db


It has to be either a Euro unit or a pre production/review model because it isn't being released to the public until March.
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post #114 of 150 Old 02-19-2011, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

It has to be either a Euro unit or a pre production/review model because it isn't being released to the public until March.

According to B&H Photo, HDC-TM900 is being released in "limited quantity"! They could be "Real McCoys", since the seller has 3 of them.
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post #115 of 150 Old 02-19-2011, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by krzysiu View Post

According to B&H Photo, HDC-TM900 is being released in "limited quantity"! They could be "Real McCoys", since the seller has 3 of them.


If that's true then it could be possible.
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post #116 of 150 Old 02-20-2011, 02:07 AM
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1.6 lx (1 / 25 Low Light scene mode) / 1 lx (Color Night View)

1.6 lx (1 / 30 Low Light scene mode) / 1 lx (Color Night View) these are specs of sd800 and tm900. Im thinking of buying the sd800 but not sure if this or few of the other things justify the 300EUR raise in price? What does that difference do in real life?
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post #117 of 150 Old 02-28-2011, 11:06 AM
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Uh oh.......the 900 is now available.
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post #118 of 150 Old 02-28-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinIce View Post

Uh oh.......the 900 is now available.

Where are you finding it?
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post #119 of 150 Old 02-28-2011, 11:45 AM
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B&H's site says it's in stock although I'm not sure if it's a mistake since other places such as Amazon wont sell them yet.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...tialSearch=yes
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post #120 of 150 Old 02-28-2011, 11:50 AM
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yes B&H...I received a notice it was in stock.....so maybe it is.
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