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post #181 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Dave, are you sure that MF is only available in scene modes? The MF is always your best option so that even when someone walks in front of the camera, the MF stays unaltered. I too have never had much luck with tap & focus systems.

I can't imagine what the logic is in making MF only available in scene modes. Certainly with the G10 I'd keep it in MF for something like you shot. With the G10 you can change the AF modes with 3 different acquisition speeds. When I do Corporate work with CEO intros, I always use MF regardless of how good the AF is. You just don't want to lose focus for a split second for things like that.

The XA10 is on its way to the zoo today for the first time.

Yeah for the hx100v if in I-auto mode there is no mf. You have to choose one of the scene modes. Kind of frustrating. Even on my cx550 in I-auto mode at any time you can push one button and be focussing manually. They could have easily done that here but chose not too.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=38474663

Unfortunately when in the dedicated camera manual mode, you can choose manual focus, shutter speed, ISO, WB and if you set all that the way you like and then hit the dedicated movie record button it just defaults back to full auto. The only way for ANY control over video mode is to leave M mode, enter movie mode and then choose a scene mode but then that really limits you. I'm not surprised. The cx700 has very little control manually too, just 2 variables at a time (aside from WB) manual focus + only one other, like shutter speed OR exposure but not together. If you choose manual shutter speed, exposure becomes auto etc... So the idea of a $400 camera having more control options would make no sense.

And yeah, I usually always use manual focus but have used auto for these kind of gigs with the 550 with very good results. The manual focus wheel on the 550 like the 700 is that tiny wheel which is only useful to set focus before a shot. I was very excited for the g10 having a big, smooth focus ring but in a very bad design move, if the LCD screen is angled in any way except totally flat and straight, the screen blocks access to the focus ring! If you are shooting with the camera up to your face you won't have an issue but I shoot with the camera at solar plexus level for added stability with the LCD screen angled up. So for me it is impossible to change focus while shooting the way I normally do.
It became limiting last night because I locked focus on the singer at the mic. So if I panned and zoomed over to the drummer or other guitar player they weren't in perfect focus.
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post #182 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by YLK View Post

I meant shooting modes like sunset, fireworks, beach, landscape, portrait, etc. I hope by choosing one you can also indirectly set the shutter speed. As an example - in low light modes the shutter speed is set probably to 1/15 or 1/10 even, aperture to lower F number (to allow more light in), ISO to higher number. If we knew what's exactly behind each mode we could be in some control of shooting parameters.

It has those in Scene selection mode, just not sure if you can use them in movie mode as well. Well from the looks of it this will greatly help if one is shooting in low light and having focusing problems. As if this unit can't focus in lowlight I am for sure not keeping it.


This is from DP Review site, Dave pointed us to this thread earlier and from the look of it you can use Scene modes in movie mode, not all you can use manual focus though.


"After being pointed in the right direction, experimentation shows that some video SCN modes allow manual focus but not tracking focus, some only allow tracking but not manual, and some modes allow both. Fun stuff.
The CD manual doesn't mention any of this."

Well Dave you beat me to it!
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post #183 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 06:59 AM
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Hiya Garman, I looked through all the scene modes but didn't see any shutter speed adjustment which is very frustrating.
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post #184 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:02 AM
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Honestly guys, I'm gonna try some outdoor stuff tomorrow but I'm leaning towards not keeping it. I really wanted the 60p mode so I could have some smooth overcrank footage for slo mo. But to be honest the 720p footage I shot with my hacked gh1 and the 20mm pancake lens looked Much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbiJx66jHo0&sns=em

The wide shot in this vid that is locked off is 720/60p from the panny Lumix gh1

This almost looked like SD in comparison. That plus no control at all over shutter speed and dodgy focus? Maybe it's just bad in lowlight.
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post #185 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Hiya Garman, I looked through all the scene modes but didn't see any shutter speed adjustment which is very frustrating.


Yes very frustrating as I want a Camera/Camcorder that preforms well in both bright light and low light, but from the looks of things not too many if any do both well in the consumer end of things. At least with manual mode you can shoot, set the focus and not have to worry about it going out of focus because the Auto Focus is kicking in. My Nikons and Canons are much more flexible with out having this issue, but I was looking for some thing that shoots 1080p/60p that did a decent job in low light. As Ken and Steve have brought this my attention about Sony's camcorders, I just haven't seen it till now.

So you keeping your HX100? For me I might go to the GH2, was hoping for some thing lighter and more flexible and I thought this Sony might do a decent job. A few more low light test changing modes and if it keeps going out of focus, I know I am taking mine back.
I am with you if more of my videos come out the same.

The thing is, when it stays in focus the video looks great, but it doesn't want to lock in and stay focused.

Just Curious how the GH2 is in low light and does it shoot 1080p/60p? I can't remember if it did or not.
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post #186 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:16 AM
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My hacked gh1 with the 20mm pancake lens is amazing in low light. The gh2 should be the same. Yeah after just finding that older clip I shot using the cx550 and the gh1, I'm sending the hx100v back. There is a hack about to come out for the gh2 that will probably enable 1080/60p. But even at just 720/60p the gh1 looked much better to me in that kind of situation. The panny af100, same chip as the gh2 can do it albeit without sound.
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post #187 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

My hacked gh1 with the 20mm pancake lens is amazing in low light. The gh2 should be the same. Yeah after just finding that older clip I shot using the cx550 and the gh1, I'm sending the hx100v back. There is a hack about to come out for the gh2 that will probably enable 1080/60p. The panny af100, same chip as the gh2 can do it albeit without sound.

Dave,

A place I know if just got the GH2 in stock going to order one as I have one before but sold it as I liked my stills much better on my Nikons. I just should have kept it for the video alone.
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post #188 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post


Dave,

A place I know if just got the GH2 in stock going to order one as I have one before but sold it as I liked my stills much better on my Nikons. I just should have kept it for the video alone.

I think the gh2 is considered about the best DSLR for video right now. And if it gets hacked, ay caramba!

And I probably am being too harsh on the hx100v. In decent light it probably looks very good but I really thought it would have a little better manual control options
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post #189 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

I think the gh2 is considered about the best DSLR for video right now. And if it gets hacked, ay caramba!

And I probably am being too harsh on the hx100v. In decent light it probably looks very good but I really thought it would have a little better manual control options

Well with a manual switch on the lens, one would think it would give you more flexiblity to use the manual focus. My Nikons and Canon looks just as good in low light and stays focused but then again much more expensive cameras to be fair. But these cameras do not have 1080p/60p which I am looking for.
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post #190 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post


Well with a manual switch on the lens, one would think it would give you more flexiblity to use the manual focus. My Nikons and Canon looks just as good in low light and stays focused but then again much more expensive cameras to be fair. But these cameras do not have 1080p/60p which I am looking for.

Yeah the auto/manual focus switch only works in some scene modes which is absurd.
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post #191 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 09:15 AM
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Dave, thanks for the info. Wish the camera performed better. Tested in low light it displayed problems with focus, but what about the noise/grain? Assuming it kept the focus would you accept the quality of the footage?
I had a talk with a vendor here in Shanghai and he said after many tests they had done in the shop he found the video quality of dedicated camcorders much better - even Panasonic's HS80 performed much better. He attributed it to much brighter lens. In another thread I wondered how TM90 would rank compared to HX9V, and can only guess Sony would not be a winner...
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post #192 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by YLK View Post

Dave, thanks for the info. Wish the camera performed better. Tested in low light it displayed problems with focus, but what about the noise/grain? Assuming it kept the focus would you accept the quality of the footage?
I had a talk with a vendor here in Shanghai and he said after many tests they had done in the shop he found the video quality of dedicated camcorders much better - even Panasonic's HS80 performed much better. He attributed it to much brighter lens. In another thread I wondered how TM90 would rank compared to HX9V, and can only guess Sony would not be a winner...

Well your vendor is right for the most part, until you step up to the Canon DSLRs/Nikon and especially the Panasonic GH2 for video. These DSLRs will give you great video, even in low light, but most dedicated camcorders will do it better if you find the right one. Depends on what your doing, I am a semi-professional photography and I shoot plenty of stills daily but I would love to have a DSLR that shoots 1080p/60p in low light and good light, the only one I can think of is the Panasonic GH2 and that is with the hack Dave was talking about. Now on the camcorder end, there are plenty of choices, but low light is still a issue for some camcorders, Canons do the best in this area.
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post #193 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by YLK View Post

Dave, thanks for the info. Wish the camera performed better. Tested in low light it displayed problems with focus, but what about the noise/grain? Assuming it kept the focus would you accept the quality of the footage?
I had a talk with a vendor here in Shanghai and he said after many tests they had done in the shop he found the video quality of dedicated camcorders much better - even Panasonic's HS80 performed much better. He attributed it to much brighter lens. In another thread I wondered how TM90 would rank compared to HX9V, and can only guess Sony would not be a winner...

Hi ylk, in the kind of light I shot in, even if fully tightly in focus it didn't look very good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjLszUVp838&sns=em

Compare that to the same club with my other cams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GefrGVWGL2E&sns=em


It wouldn't really mix well. Way to soft, muddy with noticeable compression blocks, noise in the lower left
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post #194 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 09:55 AM
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@Garman - the vendor was just commenting on HX9V, I'm sure VDSLRs could surpass many camcorders, especially in low light - if only bright enough glass was used.
@Dave - thanks for the links; even the proxy has problems with accessing Youtube these days (the site is blocked in China), so no chance to watch them right now - have to rely on your opinion. I was very excited about HX9V - the early reviews spoke of a light, cheap camera taking good stills and great video, but it looks like this is not entirely true - at least video is not on par with dedicated camcorders. Your test proves this, at least for low light. Ken mentioned it earlier too as well. I really hope it performs better in good light...
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post #195 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post


Well your vendor is right for the most part, until you step up to the Canon DSLRs/Nikon and especially the Panasonic GH2 for video. These DSLRs will give you great video, even in low light, but most dedicated camcorders will do it better if you find the right one. Depends on what your doing, I am a semi-professional photography and I shoot plenty of stills daily but I would love to have a DSLR that shoots 1080p/60p in low light and good light, the only one I can think of is the Panasonic GH2 and that is with the hack Dave was talking about. Now on the camcorder end, there are plenty of choices, but low light is still a issue for some camcorders, Canons do the best in this area.

Garman, Paulo linked some pretty impressive vids earlier taken with the voigtlander 0.95 lens and the gh2.
And the canon g10 did VERY well in that club last night. I am at work now but will try to bang something together tonight.
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post #196 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 11:13 AM
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Garman, Paulo linked some pretty impressive vids earlier taken with the voigtlander 0.95 lens and the gh2.
And the canon g10 did VERY well in that club last night. I am at work now but will try to bang something together tonight.

What are you going to use? Are you going to give the Sony a shot again? I would expect the Canon HF G10 to be good in low light, especially at $1500 clams.
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post #197 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 11:28 AM
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What are you going to use? Are you going to give the Sony a shot again? I would expect the Canon HF G10 to be good in low light, especially at $1500 clams.

Yeah the canon is pretty amazing in lowlight. I'll post some later. Stuck at work now.
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post #198 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post

What are you going to use? Are you going to give the Sony a shot again? I would expect the Canon HF G10 to be good in low light, especially at $1500 clams.


I was doing some low light testing inside today with the HF G10 and I actually had to film my wife and I together. Thsi is tougher than it sounds not being behind the camera. I was using 2 clamp lights with 23 watt HFCL's and the video came out ok but was having a hell of a time with exposure as it would overexpose in some areas and not in others. I will probably try Programmed AE mode and hope that works. I had actually switched to 100% zebra peaking (bad idea) and I shut off the OIS as it was tripod mounted (another bad idea) The standard OIS in the HF G10 *REALLY* helps when you touch the screen to make a menue change if it's still recording.

The low light is great I just need to nail down the settings a bit better. The new lightstands are amazing and the clamp lights just grab onto the aluminum poles. The fact is 2 clamps lights isn't horribly low light but it is challenging. But that is more for the lighting thread. The HF G10 works great in even lower light. I want to try a single candle test if I have time this weekend.
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post #199 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 01:16 PM
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I was doing some low light testing inside today with the HF G10 and I actually had to film my wife and I together. Thsi is tougher than it sounds not being behind the camera. I was using 2 clamp lights with 23 watt HFCL's and the video came out ok but was having a hell of a time with exposure as it would overexpose in some areas and not in others. I will probably try Programmed AE mode and hope that works. I had actually switched to 100% zebra peaking (bad idea) and I shut off the OIS as it was tripod mounted (another bad idea) The standard OIS in the HF G10 *REALLY* helps when you touch the screen to make a menue change if it's still recording.

The low light is great I just need to nail down the settings a bit better. The new lightstands are amazing and the clamp lights just grab onto the aluminum poles. The fact is 2 clamps lights isn't horribly low light but it is challenging. But that is more for the lighting thread. The HF G10 works great in even lower light. I want to try a single candle test if I have time this weekend.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head as some people "even myself" want it to work in every situation right out of the box, but you and I and a lot of people in here see a problem coming before the manufactures do! I might try the HF G10 again, soon. Kicking around getting another GH2 as I sold mine a while back ago.
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post #200 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post


I was doing some low light testing inside today with the HF G10 and I actually had to film my wife and I together. Thsi is tougher than it sounds not being behind the camera. I was using 2 clamp lights with 23 watt HFCL's and the video came out ok but was having a hell of a time with exposure as it would overexpose in some areas and not in others. I will probably try Programmed AE mode and hope that works. I had actually switched to 100% zebra peaking (bad idea) and I shut off the OIS as it was tripod mounted (another bad idea) The standard OIS in the HF G10 *REALLY* helps when you touch the screen to make a menue change if it's still recording.

The low light is great I just need to nail down the settings a bit better. The new lightstands are amazing and the clamp lights just grab onto the aluminum poles. The fact is 2 clamps lights isn't horribly low light but it is challenging. But that is more for the lighting thread. The HF G10 works great in even lower light. I want to try a single candle test if I have time this weekend.

I've seen a candle test video without any movement. IMO it would be more useful with some type of movement to represent the motion of people talking and head movement.
That would be great info to have. Good luck.
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post #201 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 01:26 PM
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I've seen a candle test video without any movement. IMO it would be more useful with some type of movement to represent the motion of people talking and head movement.
That would be great info to have. Good luck.

Icyman: Dave has some footage on the Canon thread of a Rock concert, I think that should give you more than enough movement, not sure if he had it on a tripod or not but the footage looks very good.
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post #202 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 01:45 PM
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Icyman: Dave has some footage on the Canon thread of a Rock concert, I think that should give you more than enough movement, not sure if he had it on a tripod or not but the footage looks very good.

I will post the g10 footage later. I posted the hx100v raw this am which blistered focus wise. The older videos were a combo of cx550, nx5u and Lumix gh1.
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post #203 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:18 PM
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I will post the g10 footage later. I posted the hx100v raw this am which blistered focus wise. The older videos were a combo of cx550, nx5u and Lumix gh1.

Dave,

I was shocked on how good the still shots looked on the Sony. Here is one, pretty darn good, if I didn't have Canon and Nikon DSLRs I might have kept it for still shots.
LL
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post #204 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:22 PM
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Sony typically have issues at times focusing in low light and on this camera if it happens a few times during a shot, no big deal to edit it out.

It is a big deal if it happens during a critical phase of the shot and it becomes impossible to edit it out. I can just imagine if I'm doing a CEO intro to one of my videos and I lose focus 'just a few times' during the shot. Chances are I'll never get repeat business from that client.

All camcorders can lose focus, including very expensive ones, however some are much more prone to it in a variety of conditions than others. When you have a critical shot that sharp focus is an absolute must throughout the shot, you must use manual focus. If you don't and lose those critical moments that can't be edited out, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
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post #205 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:30 PM
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I was very excited for the g10 having a big, smooth focus ring but in a very bad design move, if the LCD screen is angled in any way except totally flat and straight, the screen blocks access to the focus ring! If you are shooting with the camera up to your face you won't have an issue but I shoot with the camera at solar plexus level for added stability with the LCD screen angled up. So for me it is impossible to change focus while shooting the way I normally do.
It became limiting last night because I locked focus on the singer at the mic. So if I panned and zoomed over to the drummer or other guitar player they weren't in perfect focus.

Dave, for what it's worth I've found the most stable shooting position is using the VF with the VF snugged up against the face. This makes your face part of the 'stabilization system', allows for better framing and gives you access to the focus ring.

We just got back from the zoo and my wife took the HX9 instead of the GH2. It looks like she got some great results, but she did have trouble 'finding' subjects in the LCD. I've had the same issue when using LCDs depending on if the subject is small vs large, moving vs static, sunny outdoors vs dim lighting indoors. At those times she wished she had brought the GH2 so as to have the VF.

In my mind there is just no substitute for a good VF for a variety of reasons. But I know certain shots and shooting styles may lead you to other options.
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post #206 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post

Yes very frustrating as I want a Camera/Camcorder that preforms well in both bright light and low light, but from the looks of things not too many if any do both well in the consumer end of things. At least with manual mode you can shoot, set the focus and not have to worry about it going out of focus because the Auto Focus is kicking in. My Nikons and Canons are much more flexible with out having this issue, but I was looking for some thing that shoots 1080p/60p that did a decent job in low light. As Ken and Steve have brought this my attention about Sony's camcorders, I just haven't seen it till now.

Well in terms of good performance in both good light and bad light, there is IMO a clear solution, the G10/XA10. It unquestionably takes great video in either lighting situation and has the most manual options of anything out there anywhere near its price range. If you're in low light and are having issue with AF, you simply switch to MF. Even in MF you have a few options including 'spot' and the more conventional focus wheel with the ability to use MF aids such as peaking or the magnified image approach.

Even at the zoo today, MF became mandatory in good lighting while filming different types of birds. Since these birds were buried in trees, any AF would zone in on the leaves which in most cases were not at the same distance as the birds. Thus MF saved those shots and gave some really nice DOF imagery. For those willing to use manual controls, a camera such as this will deliver the goods in spades.

After having owned the TMV700 & 900, both of which do 1080p, I truly don't feel not having 1080p is hurting me in the least...especially since I find the video of the Canons to be better. I've gotten out of that '1080p or nothing' mode thanks to the Canon's performance.
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post #207 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:38 PM
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Dave, for what it's worth I've found the most stable shooting position is using the VF with the VF snugged up against the face. This makes your face part of the 'stabilization system', allows for better framing and gives you access to the focus ring.

We just got back from the zoo and my wife took the HX9 instead of the GH2. It looks like she got some great results, but she did have trouble 'finding' subjects in the LCD. I've had the same issue when using LCDs depending on if the subject is small vs large, moving vs static, sunny outdoors vs dim lighting indoors. At those times she wished she had brought the GH2 so as to have the VF.

In my mind there is just no substitute for a good VF for a variety of reasons. But I know certain shots and shooting styles may lead you to other options.

Yeah, I am much more stable shooting midlevel. Also at these gigs i can go an hour straight without stopping so it's easier too.

Zoo sounds awesome! Any good shots?
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post #208 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:44 PM
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Just Curious how the GH2 is in low light and does it shoot 1080p/60p? I can't remember if it did or not.

With the 14-140mm lens most of the kits are equipped with, OK. With the 20mm pancakes lens, nothing short of superb. But don't expect to use AF with that lens, you'd just be dreaming. You can make dinner in the time it takes for that lens to come to correct focus...if it does in certain lighting situations.
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post #209 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:48 PM
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Well your vendor is right for the most part, until you step up to the Canon DSLRs/Nikon and especially the Panasonic GH2 for video. These DSLRs will give you great video, even in low light, but most dedicated camcorders will do it better if you find the right one. Depends on what your doing, I am a semi-professional photography and I shoot plenty of stills daily but I would love to have a DSLR that shoots 1080p/60p in low light and good light, the only one I can think of is the Panasonic GH2 and that is with the hack Dave was talking about. Now on the camcorder end, there are plenty of choices, but low light is still a issue for some camcorders, Canons do the best in this area.

Just keep in mind that currently (no hack) the GH2 shoots 60p only in 1440X720 mode. I see a big difference in detail between 720p and 1080i. I personally like the higher frame rate of 1920X1080 60i, so for me it's a 'win win', but if you must have 1920X1080 60p, the GH2 will still not be your answer.
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post #210 of 419 Old 05-28-2011, 02:53 PM
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What are you going to use? Are you going to give the Sony a shot again? I would expect the Canon HF G10 to be good in low light, especially at $1500 clams.

Don't bet on that. You can spend considerably more than $1,500 and still not get low light performance as good as the G10/XA10.

For the overall performance they offer, I actually think these cameras are somewhat of a bargain. But you need to have a passion for video to spend that much.
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