The Official Panasonic HDC-TM900 Owners Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 07:40 PM
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Workinghard compared the SDX1 with the hybrid stabilizer against the SD600 and he did say that the stabilizer of the SDX1 was noticeably improved. Hopefully he'll chime in and elaborate more.

This is why I feel real world tests are very important rather than just coming to conclusions only based on camcorderinfo.com.
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post #62 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post
. And from djandrea's posted videos it looks like it has not changed.

.
I can assure you that is improved! is much more stable .... even at full zoom!
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post #63 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Workinghard compared the SDX1 with the hybrid stabilizer against the SD600 and he did say that the stabilizer of the SDX1 was noticeably improved. Hopefully he'll chime in and elaborate more.

This is why I feel real world tests are very important rather than just coming to conclusions only based on camcorderinfo.com.

Well, I did test the two and compare the stabilizers, but unfortunately once I saw the difference in color reproduction, sharpness and contrast I quit comparing them so closely.

I will tell you though, looking back at my old footage I notice a bit more wobble in my sd600 footage. In addition, I was absolutely able to hold the camcorder MUCH more stable at max zoom with OIS LOCK on the SDX1. This surprised me given how tiny the camcorder is. I dont really feel that the normal stabilizer was significantly different, but I do miss the OIS Lock. I keep wanting to push it and am always missing how rock solid the stabilizer was with it.

Now, the OIS Lock did jump from position to position when the wobble exceeded its ability to compensate, but it was much better than shaky video. I have never seen that type of jumpy "floating" movement (which aided in such rock solid video under most conditions and really demonstrated how well the OIS was working) on my sd600. However, while it def made more stable video, it is not worth 300 dollars , as the 600/700 does a good job as well... unless you have a really nice job anyway.
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post #64 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Does anyone find it odd that the CCI review had identical resolution #s for the 700 @ 900, yet they found the 900 was slightly less sharp? Now granted, technically, sharpness and resolution can mean two different things, but I wonder if that's what they meant. Of course the difference could easily be attributed to nothing more than sample to sample variation.

I thought this was a result of the autofocus causing the image to be out of focus?
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post #65 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Just speculating Ken. CCi states no difference in OIS from last years model. I don't know why because Panasonic states otherwise. If that is true, the Sony has better OIS. We all know the OIS on the Sony was the best last year. And from djandrea's posted videos it looks like it has not changed.



Thanks, that's interesting. I have a slim and fat, but the fat is broken due to YLOD. I was wondering why some report their PS3's play the high bitrate files with no issues and some do. My slim has issues with them if the bitrate goes above 33 to 34 Mbps. Maybe it is just the slim models that can't handle the higher bitrate files?

They did put redesigned cell processors in the slim units. I'm thinking that they might not be up to par as the original cell processor. I'm curious because it seems Ken has issues and so do I, and we both have slim models. I'm sure you will report your findings with your fat, so that would take us a step further as to what might be causing the issue. It certainly could be the newer processors.

I might get my fat fixed just so I can test files myself at some point.


I also think it's very strange that they say the OIS is the same yet Panasonic states otherwise. Marketing pretty much runs with what they've got.

I will test my Fat PS3 and see how it works. I suppose I could shoot a 30 sec clip of something and see if it works ok for me and upload it and allow the raw file on Vimeo and see if the slim PS3's have any problems. I don't know anyone who has a PS3 slim that I can use to test it with.
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post #66 of 1366 Old 03-16-2011, 10:12 PM
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I received my tm900 on march 2 from b&h. After using it for a while I noticed there is a stuck or dead pixel on the LCD screen. Should I contact b&h about this? Or leave it alone. It just kind of bothers me but I don't know what their policy is on it. Also when I tilt the camera from front to back when it is off It sounds like there is a very loose piece inside. Is this just the OIS? Or is it something more. It's quite loud.
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post #67 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post


I also think it's very strange that they say the OIS is the same yet Panasonic states otherwise. Marketing pretty much runs with what they've got.

I will test my Fat PS3 and see how it works. I suppose I could shoot a 30 sec clip of something and see if it works ok for me and upload it and allow the raw file on Vimeo and see if the slim PS3's have any problems. I don't know anyone who has a PS3 slim that I can use to test it with.

Steve, I think the software versions also impacted how well 1080p played on the PS3, even within a given model. So you can have a few permutations beyond fat and slim.
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post #68 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johntomk View Post

I received my tm900 on march 2 from b&h. After using it for a while I noticed there is a stuck or dead pixel on the LCD screen. Should I contact b&h about this? Or leave it alone. It just kind of bothers me but I don't know what their policy is on it. Also when I tilt the camera from front to back when it is off It sounds like there is a very loose piece inside. Is this just the OIS? Or is it something more. It's quite loud.

The loose piece is the OIS. This question comes up frequently from camera to camera.

As long as the dead pixel is just the LCD and not the imager, you're fine. I don't think I'd bother exchanging it. Most manufacturers state that 99.9% (or something close to that) of the pixels will be fine and thus 1 or 2 dead pixels is considered within tolerance.
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post #69 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djandrea View Post

I can assure you that is improved! is much more stable .... even at full zoom!

Interesting...thanks.
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Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post


I will test my Fat PS3 and see how it works. I suppose I could shoot a 30 sec clip of something and see if it works ok for me and upload it and allow the raw file on Vimeo and see if the slim PS3's have any problems. I don't know anyone who has a PS3 slim that I can use to test it with.

I don't know if the problem with my PS3 would show up in a 30 second clip, it might, might not. It seems to happen mostly when there is alot going on in the footage (moving objects)- cars going by, basketball players running, etc..which makes the bitrate spike to a 34 to 35 Mbps rate.

In markr041's 10 minute 900 clips, I might experience the problem 5 or so times. But once it starts it will not recover unless I pause it on the PS3.

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post #70 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Interesting...thanks.


I don't know if the problem with my PS3 would show up in a 30 second clip, it might, might not. It seems to happen mostly when there is alot going on in the footage (moving objects)- cars going by, basketball players running, etc..which makes the bitrate spike to a 34 to 35 Mbps rate.

In markr041's 10 minute 900 clips, I might experience the problem 5 or so times. But once it starts it will not recover unless I pause it on the PS3.


So about how long a clip would it take to show up the problem?
I can try and take a vid that is really busy and see if that helps. My upload speeds are awful so to upload a 1GB file would probably take all night.
The vid with the basketball players didn't cause a crash/freeze for me. I'll have to try something once I get the camera on Friday.
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post #71 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 09:25 AM
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My TM900 was just delivered. I also have a Sony CX700 that should be delivered at some point this afternoon. I wasn't planning on opening the Sony, just RMAing it. But if anybody wants side by side comparisons of the two I can unbox the Sony and do a few things. Explicit directions would have to be given as I have no idea of what to do to get the most accurate results. I also have blue sky right now, but the way the weather has been here, that could change at any time.
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post #72 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 11:27 AM
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post #73 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 12:42 PM
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An FYI, I have the same low level beep in my recording that Ken does. So it is not isolated to 1 defective unit.
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post #74 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 01:32 PM
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Interesting, the TM900 is no longer on the Panasonic website at all (my mistake, you can search for it manually, but it doesn't show up if you select Camcorders).
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post #75 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 01:36 PM
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You can still get to it by searching, but not in the list when you just select camcorders. Definitely odd.
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post #76 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 02:57 PM
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I noticed this, so I called up Panasonic and spoke to one of their customer service reps. They said they are doing a web update and that it is available for purchase through the website.

I also asked about when the batteries will be available and they said they currently have no information about that.
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post #77 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

So about how long a clip would it take to show up the problem?
I can try and take a vid that is really busy and see if that helps. My upload speeds are awful so to upload a 1GB file would probably take all night.
The vid with the basketball players didn't cause a crash/freeze for me. I'll have to try something once I get the camera on Friday.

Steve, it's not really about my Slim PS3, but more about your Fat PS3. Any busy footage that makes the bitrate jump to a 33 to 36Mbps rate causes my slim to hiccup. It could be any length really, but it has to have alot of action in the footage to make the cam's bitrate go that high.

Let me explain exactly what I am seeing when the bitrate gets too high for my ps3 to handle. I do not see any stuttering, crashing , or freezing when it happens.

The video looks like it's slowed down (think slow-mo), and has less detail and sharpness. The slowing down is very subtle. I can see some people not being able to detect it. Also, the sound is fine while all this is going on. You can really tell by keeping the PS3's information screen up at all times, that way you can monitor the bitrate on the fly. When the problem occurs the bitrate will go to single digits..8 to 9 Mbps.

I appreciate you offering to upload a large file as I would like to see more native files from the 900 anyway, but it's really not necessary. I'd rather you concentrate on watching your footage carefully to see if your PS3 has the same problem as mine, and reporting a definitive yes or no.

I have tried every setting that I can think of to eliminate this problem, including turning all enhancements off. Thanks alot...

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post #78 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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That is what mine is doing but it also shakes like it's lagging like I wasn't holding the camera steady but played through camera it's perfect. it's a new ps3 that I played through a card reader. Tonight I'll see if it's the same if I save it to the ps3 hd. This was for both panny 700 and 900 clips

Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Steve, it's not really about my Slim PS3, but more about your Fat PS3. Any busy footage that makes the bitrate jump to a 33 to 36Mbps rate causes my slim to hiccup. It could be any length really, but it has to have alot of action in the footage to make the cam's bitrate go that high.

Let me explain exactly what I am seeing when the bitrate gets too high for my ps3 to handle. I do not see any stuttering, crashing , or freezing when it happens.

The video looks like it's slowed down (think slow-mo), and has less detail and sharpness. The slowing down is very subtle. I can see some people not being able to detect it. Also, the sound is fine while all this is going on. You can really tell by keeping the PS3's information screen up at all times, that way you can monitor the bitrate on the fly. When the problem occurs the bitrate will go to single digits..8 to 9 Mbps.

I appreciate you offering to upload a large file as I would like to see more native files from the 900 anyway, but it's really not necessary. I'd rather you concentrate on watching your footage carefully to see if your PS3 has the same problem as mine, and reporting a definitive yes or no.

I have tried every setting that I can think of to eliminate this problem, including turning all enhancements off. Thanks alot...

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post #79 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 05:40 PM
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I have seen no shakiness in the raw videos that I have viewed. I can't think of any reason why you would see this.

You can down convert your footage to a lower bitrate in-camera using the cams menu system. I have heard that it looks almost the same. Why don't you give that a try and see what you think gso.

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post #80 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Steve, it's not really about my Slim PS3, but more about your Fat PS3. Any busy footage that makes the bitrate jump to a 33 to 36Mbps rate causes my slim to hiccup. It could be any length really, but it has to have alot of action in the footage to make the cam's bitrate go that high.

Let me explain exactly what I am seeing when the bitrate gets too high for my ps3 to handle. I do not see any stuttering, crashing , or freezing when it happens.

The video looks like it's slowed down (think slow-mo), and has less detail and sharpness. The slowing down is very subtle. I can see some people not being able to detect it. Also, the sound is fine while all this is going on. You can really tell by keeping the PS3's information screen up at all times, that way you can monitor the bitrate on the fly. When the problem occurs the bitrate will go to single digits..8 to 9 Mbps.

I appreciate you offering to upload a large file as I would like to see more native files from the 900 anyway, but it's really not necessary. I'd rather you concentrate on watching your footage carefully to see if your PS3 has the same problem as mine, and reporting a definitive yes or no.

I have tried every setting that I can think of to eliminate this problem, including turning all enhancements off. Thanks alot...


I will try and get a busy shot from somewhere. Where I live it's not exactly busy. But maybe I can find something that has a lot of movement in it.
If I see the problem i will try and correct it and post what my results are. UPS usually drops off around 5-6pm so it will be late before i find out anything.
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post #81 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 06:21 PM
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Thanks Steve..there is no rush here, the PS3 playability issue can wait until you get a chance. Enjoy your cam. Any road intersection in your travels with lots of cars going by should suffice. Zooming in and out a little would most likely help also.

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post #82 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post


In markr041's 10 minute 900 clips, I might experience the problem 5 or so times. But once it starts it will not recover unless I pause it on the PS3.

Keep in mind that Mark's 900 clips behave much better on my PS3 than clips I played directly from my own 900 on the same PS3. I'm still scratching my head on that one. My clips begin stuttering almost immediately and Mark's not for about 15 seconds.

Go figure.
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post #83 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Thanks Steve..there is no rush here, the PS3 playability issue can wait until you get a chance. Enjoy your cam. Any road intersection in your travels with lots of cars going by should suffice. Zooming in and out a little would most likely help also.


I can do that at rush hour. I will try and get it done soon.
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post #84 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichGS View Post

An FYI, I have the same low level beep in my recording that Ken does. So it is not isolated to 1 defective unit.

Bingo, why am I not surprised? I'll tell you right now, this will be a major issue with the 900 since IMO it is unquestionably worse than the fan noise. I'll see if my replacement does it too. If it does, that may be the end of the 900 for me. That beeping is not a tolerable situation IMO. I was never bothered by the fan noise since it was only slightly audible in the quietest of environments, but not so with that beep. Very discouraging.
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post #85 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Steve, it's not really about my Slim PS3, but more about your Fat PS3. Any busy footage that makes the bitrate jump to a 33 to 36Mbps rate causes my slim to hiccup. It could be any length really, but it has to have alot of action in the footage to make the cam's bitrate go that high.

Let me explain exactly what I am seeing when the bitrate gets too high for my ps3 to handle. I do not see any stuttering, crashing , or freezing when it happens.

The video looks like it's slowed down (think slow-mo), and has less detail and sharpness. The slowing down is very subtle. I can see some people not being able to detect it. Also, the sound is fine while all this is going on. You can really tell by keeping the PS3's information screen up at all times, that way you can monitor the bitrate on the fly. When the problem occurs the bitrate will go to single digits..8 to 9 Mbps.

I appreciate you offering to upload a large file as I would like to see more native files from the 900 anyway, but it's really not necessary. I'd rather you concentrate on watching your footage carefully to see if your PS3 has the same problem as mine, and reporting a definitive yes or no.

I have tried every setting that I can think of to eliminate this problem, including turning all enhancements off. Thanks alot...

My bitrates climbed to the mid to high 30s by a slow simple pan. Not much action in that. It seems to me the bitrates are higher on the 900 than I recall on my 700.

My stuttering begins almost immediately, but when it does, I've never seen the bitrate drop like you've seen. But I've pretty much given up on using the PS3 for playback with Panny's 1080p footage and am using the Panny BD player instead. It's a far better performer with zero issues and a much nicer menu.

Interestingly, the Sony's 1080p footage exhibited zero issues on the PS3 regardless of length. And then there's Mark's 900 footage that played significantly better than my 900, but not perfect. We do pay a price for 1080p.
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post #86 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

I have seen no shakiness in the raw videos that I have viewed. I can't think of any reason why you would see this.

You can down convert your footage to a lower bitrate in-camera using the cams menu system. I have heard that it looks almost the same. Why don't you give that a try and see what you think gso.

You see once we begin to do this, it really makes me hope we get a great performing 1080i cam. To me the whole idea of these cams IS their high bitrate and 1080p. Once we begin to compromise and this aspect or that aspect and go through additional steps so that we can obtain compatibility with existing equipment, why even bother? This should be fun, not a chore.

I for one would much rather buy a cheap BD player with an SD slot or USB input and not go through an extra in-camera step that compromises PQ in whatever way (small or otherwise). You'll get perfect playback and a much better menu system to boot.
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post #87 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:33 PM
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So will one of the new Sony blu ray players like the bdp-s780 play the raw 1080p files from the 900? Can any of the Sony BDP , besides the ps3 which seems like it doesn't handle the files that well, decode the panny's codec? I would love to be able to connect my external hard drive to the player and not have to degrade the quality of the video.
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post #88 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:37 PM
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All of the Sony standalone x70 (270, 370, 470, 570, 770) series blu-ray players play the TM900 files perfectly using the usb slot.
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post #89 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Put my clips on my ps3 and they still lag a bit but play my 900 via USB through the ps3 and perfect. I wish I keep the Panasonic br player thinking im going back to best buy and get it again was hoping the ps3 would do it but it's failing. I havnt watched a br movie or played a game yet in the ps3, to justify it now.

I took some video while driving around at work and it took some amazing sharp video over a frozen lake at full zoom and another full zoom of the american flag blowing in the wind. I was very happy with it in the bright sun light the LCD worked great.
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post #90 of 1366 Old 03-17-2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

My stuttering begins almost immediately, but when it does, I've never seen the bitrate drop like you've seen. But I've pretty much given up on using the PS3 for playback with Panny's 1080p footage and am using the Panny BD player instead. It's a far better performer with zero issues and a much nicer menu.

Interestingly, the Sony's 1080p footage exhibited zero issues on the PS3 regardless of length. And then there's Mark's 900 footage that played significantly better than my 900, but not perfect. We do pay a price for 1080p.

So you are seeing actual stuttering then? Maybe your cam is shooting at a higher bitrate than Marks was. All kidding aside, I'll most likely give up using the PS3 for viewing these high bitrate files. As you say, there are other relatively inexpensive options these days for viewing them. It would be nice if there was some setting I may have missed that would correct it, but I'm not keeping my hopes up. I would just like to be able to use the PS3 for all my multi-media viewing somehow.

The down converting of the files in-cam is just another option for people that have older BD players or media machines that play these files, (but can't play the high bitrate ones) and do not wish to spend money on a new player. They can decide for themselves if the process works for them or not.

Go Phillies! Go Eagles! Go Sixers! Go Flyers!
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