Panasonic TM900 vs Sony CX560/700V vs Canon HF G10 Steel Cage Match Comparison Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well someone had to start a thread like this.

This is a thread specifically to compare Panasonic TM700/900, Sony CX560/700 and Canon HF G10/XA10 camcorders and even the JVC underdogs are welcome here.
This way we can compare all the various camcorders without going off topic in the other threads.
So if you are comparing any of these models or similar, it's on topic here.

Lowlight vs OIS vs color, vs beeps and bondi blue problems, wide angle mine is wider than yours, autofocus too slow, you name it.
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post #2 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

Well someone had to start a thread like this.

This is a thread specifically to compare Panasonic TM700/900, Sony CX560/700 and Canon HF G10/XA10 camcorders and even the JVC underdogs are welcome here.
This way we can compare all the various camcorders without going off topic in the other threads.
So if you are comparing any of these models or similar, it's on topic here.

Lowlight vs OIS vs color, vs beeps and bondi blue problems, wide angle mine is wider than yours, autofocus too slow, you name it.



You know, we have talked so much about the G10 and its low light performance, and assuming that the M400 series would be similar due to its sensor, then I noted:



HF M 400:

Superb Low-Light Performance (1.5 lux)**
Because each individual pixel is larger and more sensitive, each is capable of capturing more light, allowing high quality video to be achieved even in dimly lit conditions. The sensitivity of HD CMOS Pro is approximately 25% better than the Full HD CMOS sensor in the 2010 VIXIA HF S-series.


It specifically states that it is 25% better than the S-series, which was their flagship consumer model last year. Then they release the S30 series with the exact same sensor as the S20, 1/2.6in, and charge 1,099 dollars, 300 dollars more than than the M41!

In fact, the specifications for the M400 series specifically states:

0.1 lx (Low Light mode, 1/2 sec shutter speed), 1.5 lx (Auto Slow Shutter on, 1/30 sec shutter speed)

and the S30 series states:

Minimum Illumination 0.3 lx (Low Light mode)


What on earth is going on at Canon...this just seems ridiculous...
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post #3 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 09:33 PM
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How about we all wait till the Canon's are released? those examples of the AX10 and HF G10 are all (PRE PRODUCTION) Samples folks, I've already paid for mine through B&H and will be one of the first to own it when they arrive, probably in 2 months due to the shut down of all major businesses in Japan as they access there power and electricity problems for there country. I know! another blow! Fugi Corp. has stated they will continue to be off line until further assessment of the damage can be done. There is indefinate delays on (ALL) exports at this time leaving Tokyo Harbor, and other smaller ports with in Japan. So I'm thinking of buying up all the new stock of cx700's and 560's and sell them on ebay for $$$$$ (LOL) ha haa Anyways thats what I'm hearing.

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post #4 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by purplestinger View Post

How about we all wait till the Canon's are released? those examples of the AX10 and HF G10 are all (PRE PRODUCTION) Samples folks, I've already paid for mine through B&H and will be one of the first to own it when they arrive, probably in 2 months due to the shut down of all major businesses in Japan as they access there power and electricity problems for there country. I know! another blow! Fugi Corp. has stated they will continue to be off line until further assessment of the damage can be done. There is indefinate delays on (ALL) exports at this time leaving Tokyo Harbor, and other smaller ports with in Japan. So I'm thinking of buying up all the new stock of cx700's and 560's and sell them on ebay for $$$$$ (LOL) ha haa Anyways thats what I'm hearing.

purplestinger


How about we not worry about what's out and what's not. If it wasn't for speculation there would be no buzz or excitement over new models.

It's awful what happened to Japan, and it's going to hurt their economy which is important to help them get back on their feet.

If you do buy a lot of CX700's I hope you make out well on eBay. You might get stuck with them tho.

I am guessing that workinghard is saying that the M400 has better lowlight than the HF G10? not to be confused with the Canon G10 still camera.
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post #5 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 09:56 PM
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Time will tell.....................

But you are guessing about the m400, if anything it would be of slightly lesser quality because of the slower lens (43mm) on that model compared to the AX10/HF g10 the spec are on the Canon usa website, just read it and print all of them and them lay them out side by side and cross examine the spec's, you will see the differences (clearly) lol
In any event, its going to be months before we can continue on about what Canon has up there sleeves as far as the (Finished product) is concerned.


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post #6 of 270 Old 03-20-2011, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by purplestinger View Post

Time will tell.....................

But you are guessing about the m400, if anything it would be of slightly lesser quality because of the slower lens (43mm) on that model compared to the AX10/HF g10 the spec are on the Canon usa website, just read it and print all of them and them lay them out side by side and cross examine the spec's, you will see the differences (clearly) lol
In any event, its going to be months before we can continue on about what Canon has up there sleeves as far as the (Finished product) is concerned.


purplestinger


Time, when it comes to Canon, we've got a lot of it.
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post #7 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by workinghard View Post



In fact, the specifications for the M400 series specifically states:

0.1 lx (Low Light mode, 1/2 sec shutter speed), 1.5 lx (Auto Slow Shutter on, 1/30 sec shutter speed)

and the S30 series states:

Minimum Illumination 0.3 lx (Low Light mode)

What on earth is going on at Canon...this just seems ridiculous...

Keep in mind that the conditions used for both may have been different. For the S30 there is no shutter speed mentioned whereas with the M400 there is. So they probably aren't comparable unless we know that all settings were the same.

My benchmark is easy, it was CCI actually having a G10 to test and saying it was the best they've ever seen. Given they've already seen the Sony's excellent low light, that's a pretty good indication it will be excellent. I believe it will be closer to the 900's good light performance than the other cams we've been discussing and therefore should have the best balanced performance of anything out there.
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post #8 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 04:31 AM
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Keep in mind that the conditions used for both may have been different. For the S30 there is no shutter speed mentioned whereas with the M400 there is. So they probably aren't comparable unless we know that all settings were the same.

My benchmark is easy, it was CCI actually having a G10 to test and saying it was the best they've ever seen. Given they've already seen the Sony's excellent low light, that's a pretty good indication it will be excellent. I believe it will be closer to the 900's good light performance than the other cams we've been discussing and therefore should have the best balanced performance of anything out there.

Those specs came from the Canon website. Not CCI.

Canon claims that the HF M400 is 25% better in low light than the S20 series. Now this is distincly different than the claims Panasonic made, as they claimed to have revamped the noise reduction, not to have actually improved the low light. This is a huge claim for Canon to make on a model that was already so strong.

And Steve-I was not saying that it is better than the G10, they have the same sensor and the G10 has superior optics. I was saying that the S30 is out now, and should be in the line-up as well, however, according to what Canon says in comparison to the S20 the M400 should be better than the S30, despite the S30 costing much more.
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post #9 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Keep in mind that the conditions used for both may have been different. For the S30 there is no shutter speed mentioned whereas with the M400 there is. So they probably aren't comparable unless we know that all settings were the same.

My benchmark is easy, it was CCI actually having a G10 to test and saying it was the best they've ever seen. Given they've already seen the Sony's excellent low light, that's a pretty good indication it will be excellent. I believe it will be closer to the 900's good light performance than the other cams we've been discussing and therefore should have the best balanced performance of anything out there.


I think we hope the Canon will be the best because a few things are lacking on the other models. My concern is how good will 60i be versus 60p when it comes to PQ. Hopefully on par with the TM900.

Ken what Blu-Ray player are you using that plays the 60p files without a problem?
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post #10 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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And Steve-I was not saying that it is better than the G10, they have the same sensor and the G10 has superior optics. I was saying that the S30 is out now, and should be in the line-up as well, however, according to what Canon says in comparison to the S20 the M400 should be better than the S30, despite the S30 costing much more.


Kinda sounds like Sony saying their CX700 doesn't come with a remote.... They read their own website I guess. I really don't know, but it does seem the facts, such as they are, are subject to change (from reality) depending on which marketing dept is in charge of the website.
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Those specs came from the Canon website. Not CCI.

Canon claims that the HF M400 is 25% better in low light than the S20 series. Now this is distincly different than the claims Panasonic made, as they claimed to have revamped the noise reduction, not to have actually improved the low light. This is a huge claim for Canon to make on a model that was already so strong.

No, I realized that it came from Canon. But often you see manufacturer's websites state 'specs' in slightly different ways for different cameras in their lineup. I don't know why they do this as all it serves to do is confuse the issue.

Judging from CCI's review though, it sounds as if Canon's claim may well be in line with actual performance. I agree with you that it's a big difference in talking about improvements in 'noise' as opposed to overall improvements in low light.
I've seen from the 900's low light that the 45% improvement in noise certainly doesn't equate to a true 45% improvement in low light performance.
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I think we hope the Canon will be the best because a few things are lacking on the other models. My concern is how good will 60i be versus 60p when it comes to PQ. Hopefully on par with the TM900.

Ken what Blu-Ray player are you using that plays the 60p files without a problem?

Steve, it's a Panasonic BDP350. The menu system is much nicer than the PS3 in that it displays picons of your video, dates the videos were taken and a 'preview' of the first clip of that date.

The PS3 is always guesswork for me in trying to find a given clip. But the nice thing about the PS3 is that it plays so many types of files...even if it's high bitrate playback isn't so good.
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Steve, it's a Panasonic BDP350. The menu system is much nicer than the PS3 in that it displays picons of your video, dates the videos were taken and a 'preview' of the first clip of that date.

The PS3 is always guesswork for me in trying to find a given clip. But the nice thing about the PS3 is that it plays so many types of files...even if it's high bitrate playback isn't so good.


Thanks Ken, does the BDP350 support NTFS or just FAT32 for an external HDD? You know I'll probably just call Panasonic and ask them. The website doesn't list it and it's been replaced with the BDP360. The 350 it says is an older model. Now if only they could come out with the Camcorders as fast as the blu-Ray players.
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Thanks Ken, does the BDP350 support NTFS or just FAT32 for an external HDD? You know I'll probably just call Panasonic and ask them. The website doesn't list it and it's been replaced with the BDP360. The 350 it says is an older model. Now if only they could come out with the Camcorders as fast as the blu-Ray players.

I had a model just below the 350 it was what I started with first. It played the sd cards great but would not play my external hd 1 tera bye drive. I think I'll pick another up or try a Sony br.
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Steve, it's a Panasonic BDP350. The menu system is much nicer than the PS3 in that it displays picons of your video, dates the videos were taken and a 'preview' of the first clip of that date.

The PS3 is always guesswork for me in trying to find a given clip. But the nice thing about the PS3 is that it plays so many types of files...even if it's high bitrate playback isn't so good.


Hi Ken, Panasonic said they don't make the BDP350. They also said none of their blu-ray players support external HDD's. Maybe you meant a Sony BDP350?
I'll call Sony although the nickname for their tech support is "useless".

This bitrate problem is really annoying and it seems like it's a hardware limitation.
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post #16 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 07:26 AM
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Sorry Steve, the model is DMP-BDT350 and it is a Panasonic, I just looked at it again. I've never connected a HD to it, so I don't know how it handles that. Mark mentioned that in relation to some BD players and I don't recall if he just referenced Sonys.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CD8Q8wIwAg#
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Sorry Steve, the model is DMP-BDT350 and it is a Panasonic, I just looked at it again. I've never connected a HD to it, so I don't know how it handles that. Mark mentioned that in relation to some BD players and I don't recall if he just referenced Sonys.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CD8Q8wIwAg#


Thanks Ken, it looks like there are very few choices out there. Too bad the PS3 can't handle the bitrate. I recall reading a few posts about blu-ray players and media players. I just can't recall where.
I think it's a drawback that the TM900 has such a high bit rate that the PS3 crashes.
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For similar reasons, many people feel 1080p is a drawback in that it presents additional challenges for editing & playback. Now combine that high bitrate with 1080p and you've got an even more challenging situation.
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For similar reasons, many people feel 1080p is a drawback in that it presents additional challenges for editing & playback. Now combine that high bitrate with 1080p and you've got an even more challenging situation.


I agree however it does produce some really nice video.

My wife thinks it's getting us in too deep, she's all for a decent camcorder, but really thinks spending another $200 just to play the videos is crazy (buong in her language).

I mean marginal low light and now the PS3 can't play it, add to that an extra battery is $170 when available and you need a $60 charger to recharge it in the wall socket.

Really going to reconsider the HF G10/XA10.

I don't mind the challenges as much as it's a nickel and dime game. Well maybe a nickel and dime from 1903 adjusted for inflation.
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I agree however it does produce some really nice video.

My wife thinks it's getting us in too deep, she's all for a decent camcorder, but really thinks spending another $200 just to play the videos is crazy (buong in her language).

I mean marginal low light and now the PS3 can't play it, add to that an extra battery is $170 when available and you need a $60 charger to recharge it in the wall socket.

Really going to reconsider the HF G10/XA10.

I don't mind the challenges as much as it's a nickel and dime game. Well maybe a nickel and dime from 1903 adjusted for inflation.

Yes, there's no denying it produces some very nice images in bright light, but judging from some of the clips we've seen from the G10, it will too. So this may be a case of having our cake and eating it too. We can hope. As I said, I'm more than willing to take a slight hit in bright light to get much more PQ in lower light.
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BAD NEWS FOLKS, all bets are off on (ANY NEW CANON RELEASES) period. I just called B&H and they said that they are returning (ALL PREPAID CANON ORDERS) due to the seriousness of the Japanese Crisis and said that all out of stock or back orders are being suspended until further notice by Canon. I suspect that would happen after seeing CNN's News yesterday, stating that Japan is not interested in there Corporations so much, but rather there PEOPLE, water supply's, food and housing. And securing there country's infrastructure will be last. They also said that clean up operations are ONLY being done (during normal business hours) they are concentrating on the peoples needs for the next several months. And they should! its horrible what has happened over there, and one of the worst natural disasters in the history of the world. So thats it in a nut shell gang. We will have to wait till mid or the end of summer at the earliest to see these products start arriving.

Maybe it is time to start buying up the Panny's and Sony's ?? before they are all sold out?
I got my refund back from B&H this morning.

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post #22 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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BAD NEWS FOLKS, all bets are off on (ANY NEW CANON RELEASES) period. I just called B&H and they said that they are returning (ALL PREPAID CANON ORDERS) due to the seriousness of the Japanese Crisis and said that all out of stock or back orders are being suspended until further notice by Canon. I suspect that would happen after seeing CNN's News yesterday, stating that Japan is not interested in there Corporations so much, but rather there PEOPLE, water supply's, food and housing. And securing there country's infrastructure will be last. They also said that clean up operations are ONLY being done (during normal business hours) they are concentrating on the peoples needs for the next several months. And they should! its horrible what has happened over there, and one of the worst natural disasters in the history of the world. So thats it in a nut shell gang. We will have to wait till mid or the end of summer at the earliest to see these products start arriving.

Maybe it is time to start buying up the Panny's and Sony's ?? before they are all sold out?
I got my refund back from B&H this morning.

purplestinger


Thanks for the news, even if it is bad news. I hope they get their country sorted out. They have a lot of major problems due to this disaster. Hopefully it will work out in the end.
They are right to start on taking care of their people first. I wonder if the same sort of thing happened here, would we do that?
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Originally Posted by purplestinger View Post

BAD NEWS FOLKS, all bets are off on (ANY NEW CANON RELEASES) period. I just called B&H and they said that they are returning (ALL PREPAID CANON ORDERS) due to the seriousness of the Japanese Crisis and said that all out of stock or back orders are being suspended until further notice by Canon. I suspect that would happen after seeing CNN's News yesterday, stating that Japan is not interested in there Corporations so much, but rather there PEOPLE, water supply's, food and housing. And securing there country's infrastructure will be last. They also said that clean up operations are ONLY being done (during normal business hours) they are concentrating on the peoples needs for the next several months. And they should! its horrible what has happened over there, and one of the worst natural disasters in the history of the world. So thats it in a nut shell gang. We will have to wait till mid or the end of summer at the earliest to see these products start arriving.

Maybe it is time to start buying up the Panny's and Sony's ?? before they are all sold out?
I got my refund back from B&H this morning.

purplestinger

That's pretty consistent with what I reported last week. Last week B&H told me that the Canon Rep said that Canon was withdrawing all commit dates for products and would not know when anything would be coming in at this point.

Of course the one thing I do wonder about is the fact that these cams were 'supposed' to be on a container ship awhile back headed for the U.S. This would have been after the quake.

Either way it doesn't look good.
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Thanks for the news, even if it is bad news. I hope they get their country sorted out. They have a lot of major problems due to this disaster. Hopefully it will work out in the end.
They are right to start on taking care of their people first. I wonder if the same sort of thing happened here, would we do that?

No, idiots would loot and pillage first. Banks would take over people's homes for not paying mortgages while trying to rebuild their homes, and the oil companies would jack up gas prices due to their trucks' inability to deliver gas.
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That's pretty consistent with what I reported last week. Last week B&H told me that the Canon Rep said that Canon was withdrawing all commit dates for products and would not know when anything would be coming in at this point.

Of course the one thing I do wonder about is the fact that these cams were 'supposed' to be on a container ship awhile back headed for the U.S. This would have been after the quake.

Either way it doesn't look good.

Well maybe?? my post from a few days ago will pan out to be true, in the fact that Canon wanted to see and test there competitors Products against what they would be bringing to market. Thats not that far fetched at all, considering millions of $$$'s in world wide sales are at stake. A few extra weeks too wait, knowing that all the new releases from Pana and Sony were so close together. Strategy my friends.

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Purplestinger, I think it's way too late in the game for Canon to re-engineer or even significantly 'tweak' these cams and I doubt they'll need to. It's a long time from drawing board to engineering to production. A few weeks would never do it.

They knew very well which way they were going with the new sensor. I agree 100% with CCI that this was a smart thing to do, avoid the megasensor rat race and just do some smart engineering.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Purplestinger, I think it's way too late in the game for Canon to re-engineer or even significantly 'tweak' these cams and I doubt they'll need to. It's a long time from drawing board to engineering to production. A few weeks would never do it.

They knew very well which way they were going with the new sensor. I agree 100% with CCI that this was a smart thing to do, avoid the megasensor rat race and just do some smart engineering.

Ken, yes and NO, as far as hardware is concerned yes, however if you saw the early example with the shots taken from CES 2011 the AX10 and hfg10, they had a magenta chromic aberrations on its sample shots. It is very likely that they needed to fix these issues and possibly others (fine tweaking) with a software/FW adjustment up date, so I do not at all think that is far fetched my friend, also Canon never did announce a exact delivery date at all, and if there were not any problems then why hasn't the first ship arrived with product for a mid march delivery? I know how international commerce works, I Travelled all over the world working for American President Lines as a Merchant Seaman, Mostly to China and Japan, and the crossing from Japan is 2 weeks anyways.... it was B&H who jumped the gun and said march Not Canon. Canon could have known about other issues that weren't up to par so regardless of if the Japan Quake happened or not, we wer'nt going to see these model arrive anyways.


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post #28 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 01:10 PM
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Well the latest news is that a few units may be in very shortly.
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post #29 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 01:17 PM
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I'm curious to who your source is on that one, because if that is true then Canon has been telling some whoppers in the last 24 hr's. Which I dout. I have already spoken with several Canon USA regional rep's and my previous posts stand as fact.

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post #30 of 270 Old 03-21-2011, 02:24 PM
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Chris, I don't think it's deliberate, but given the confusion of what's going on in Japan, perfectly understandable. My source is one of the dealers who had the Canon Rep in the store.

Look at it this way, we'll know soon enough.
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