to the people archiving HD to bluray: which BD-writer/media are you using?? - AVS Forum

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Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
08:59 PM Liked: 16
post #1 of 41
12-18-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
We have a canon VIXIA HF G10, and I want to archive all the footage shot on it onto compliant blu-ray discs that can be played universally on BD players.

While I was researching drives, there seems to be an issue with certain burners only working with certain types of media (LTH or HTL). I have NO CLUE how to decipher this, and I'm hoping people here who are doing what I want to do will please chime in and tell me what Blu-ray internal burner you bought and what media you're using with it.

Thank you!
Philip_L's Avatar Philip_L
01:47 AM Liked: 18
post #2 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 318
Joined: Dec 2010
Hi

Pioneer Blu-ray writers from 205 upwards support LTH, although these blanks I've yet to see, but essentially it's a way of making cheaper blank media.

You can use MultiAVCHD, a free application to create Blu-ray discs.

Regards

Phil
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
05:24 AM Liked: 16
post #3 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
I have Sony Vegas Pro which I'm using to edit, mix and author the discs (once the pioneer drive gets here).

do you buy only 'name brand' media, like verbatim, or have you taken a chance with off brand media?

This is for our personal home movies, so ideally, I'd like them to stand the test of time. But I have no clue if branding matters when it comes to optical media longevity
sabatical's Avatar sabatical
06:16 AM Liked: 10
post #4 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 234
Joined: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

This is for our personal home movies, so ideally, I'd like them to stand the test of time. But I have no clue if branding matters when it comes to optical media longevity

Of course it does. Ask the people who used Ritek or similarly low quality DVDs in the past... Make sure you always use quality discs. For DVD it's Taiyo Yuden for single layer and Verbatim for dual layer.

For Blu-Ray discs - I don't know but don't believe anybody who claims that a cheap disc is good. There's no such thing.
flintyplus's Avatar flintyplus
08:22 AM Liked: 23
post #5 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 1,296
Joined: Jan 2008
AVCHD discs burnt on standard recordable DVD are HD but not the same as BLU RAY,The best makes of recordable BD disc are VERBATIM followed by TDK and SONY IMO,i think its best to pay a bit more for -RW discs because if something goes wrong the disc can be written on again unlike -R discs.
Philip_L's Avatar Philip_L
02:05 PM Liked: 18
post #6 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 318
Joined: Dec 2010
Hi

Always go for good branded media from a reputable suppler so you don't get pirated brands.

A good investment is a BD-RE for testing as you can use this without fear of wasting a write once disc should it not work or be to your liking.

Regards

Phil
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
03:11 PM Liked: 16
post #7 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
Thank you all for your responses. I am not creating AVCHD discs, I'm converting AVCHD to mpeg-2 using the mainconcept encoder inside vegas pro, so it should be a compliant disc that'll play in all, if not most bd players?

Anyway, I ordered a Pioneer BDR-206BDK burner and a 10 pack of Verbatim 97238 Single Layer BD-R.
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
03:58 PM Liked: 29
post #8 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 3,957
Joined: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

Thank you all for your responses. I am not creating AVCHD discs, I'm converting AVCHD to mpeg-2 using the mainconcept encoder inside vegas pro, so it should be a compliant disc that'll play in all, if not most bd players?

You do not have to transcode into inferior format to produce a valid BD. BD supports AVC, MPEG-2 Part 2 and VC1. AVCHD supports AVC only. BD supports everything that AVCHD has except AVCHD Progressive, which officially is not yet supported by BD.

Are you planning to distribute these BDs? If not, I would not convert precious 1080p60 into crappy 1080i30, but instead would buy a player that is capable of playing this format.
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
04:32 PM Liked: 16
post #9 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
these are strictly for home use, just our family home movies in HD. I shoot the clips in 1080p60i in MXP on the canon (24mbps). The only real reason why I'm choosing to encode using mainconcept is because that is the only encoder in vegas pro that'll let me set the bitrate to 25mbps. If I leave it as AVC, it gets set to 16mbps and I cant change it back.

we have two blu-ray players, the downstairs panasonic supports avchd discs, and the upstairs denon does not. I also bought the 5.1 surround sound microphone, but that's the only player thats connected to a 5.1 surround speakers. So, in my situation I think I have to convert it to mpeg-2 so that I can watch this stuff on the denon?

I want to be able to make sure these discs play in pretty much any player, make it simplest for my parents.
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
05:23 PM Liked: 29
post #10 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 3,957
Joined: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

these are strictly for home use, just our family home movies in HD. I shoot the clips in 1080p60i in MXP on the canon (24mbps). The only real reason why I'm choosing to encode using mainconcept is because that is the only encoder in vegas pro that'll let me set the bitrate to 25mbps. If I leave it as AVC, it gets set to 16mbps and I cant change it back.

Is this an edited movie or you are archiving source clips? For an edited movie it does not make a lot of difference, you can always encode again. Still, I would prefer AVC @ 16 Mbit/s to MPEG-2 @ 25 Mbit/s. Also, such an AVC encode is legal to create an AVCHD disc. I wonder how long your movie is to justify using a 25 GB disc for it.

Also, early Vegas 10 versions limit AVC encode to 20 Mbit/s, later updates (either D or E) allow 26 Mbit/s for video, which gives total 28 Mbit/s for video+audio. I was able to encode 1080p60 at nominal 20 Mbit/s (actually, it spikes well above 30 Mbit/s at times, ask Steve Sebu), I burned it onto a DVD and was able to play such an AVCHD disc on different players with different level of success: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEP70GGjjA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

we have two blu-ray players, the downstairs panasonic supports avchd discs, and the upstairs denon does not. I also bought the 5.1 surround sound microphone, but that's the only player thats connected to a 5.1 surround speakers. So, in my situation I think I have to convert it to mpeg-2 so that I can watch this stuff on the denon?

I want to be able to make sure these discs play in pretty much any player, make it simplest for my parents.

As I said, BD spec supports AVC encode. Most movies nowadays are encoded with either AVC or VC1, not with MPEG-2.

I hear you, you don't want to throw out the Denon. I have an oldish Samsung player with HQV chip in it, I hate to throw it away or to sell it for peanuts, but if it does not do what I want it to do (AVCHD discs, 1080p60) then what do I do? All it does well is playing BD discs, and even of those it does not play every disc, it is quite picky. At some point you just have to say goodbye to old stuff. I have a newer Panasonic player now, and even this one is not good enough: it does not play YouTube in HD, cannot frame it properly, it does not play Netflix at all, it stutters when playing 1080p60 from DVD, it does not like AVCHD-on-BD-as-BD, but for some weird reason plays AVCHD-on-BD-as-AVCHD. So I am about to buy a third one. Prices? The first one I bought used for $300 (originally sold for $1000), the second for $170, the third one will be for less than $100. This is the price of buying ahead of everyone else
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
05:39 PM Liked: 16
post #11 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
So, this camcorder is to record footage of all my relatives abroad. It'll probably be around 10 hours of footage total (over a month). But each time I shoot a scene, the camcorder makes that a separate file, so I can fill up these discs in however fashion to maximize space usage. This is NOT an actual movie, I'm not doing fancy transitions or even editing (I just dont care enough to do it). I'm simply looking to:

transfer all the footage onto BD-R discs for archival with chapter points and 5.1 surround captured from the camcorder.

Since you guys are the experts and you're using AVC, I will go with it over mpeg-2.

I have Vegas Pro 11.0 Build 511. If I select the 'render as' option from the file menu, under "Sony AVC/MVC" I can select a maximum bitrate 21,999,616

I can get 60mbps or 80mbps for Mpeg-2, but I cant figure out how to set it to 26mbps for AVC/MVC. I thought I had it updated to the latest version (64 bit) There are no further updates available from Sony, how were you all able to get 26mbps on your program? am I choosing the wrong option?
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
05:51 PM Liked: 29
post #12 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 3,957
Joined: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

So, this camcorder is to record footage of all my relatives abroad. It'll probably be around 10 hours of footage total (over a month). But each time I shoot a scene, the camcorder makes that a separate file, so I can fill up these discs in however fashion to maximize space usage. This is NOT an actual movie, I'm not doing fancy transitions or even editing (I just dont care enough to do it). I'm simply looking to:

transfer all the footage onto BD-R discs for archival with chapter points and 5.1 surround captured from the camcorder.

Archiving usually means preserving as is, in the source format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

I have Vegas Pro 11.0 Build 511. If I select the 'render as' option from the file menu, under "Sony AVC/MVC" I can select a maximum bitrate 21,999,616

This is weird. I can select several bytes shy of 26 Mbit/s on Vegas 10.d when I use ".AVC" mode (I have to render audio separately). Also, why do you want to re-render if this is an archive of the original footage?
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
06:01 PM Liked: 16
post #13 of 41
12-19-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Also, why do you want to re-render if this is an archive of the original footage?

Because I have no idea what I'm doing and I was following the example in a youtube tutorial.

I'm shooting at 1080p60i, can i just leave it as that? if so, how do I go about authoring a disc?

really all i want is to join all the clips together to fill up a bd-r and have like a chapter marked off every 5 minutes or so.
flintyplus's Avatar flintyplus
12:48 AM Liked: 23
post #14 of 41
12-20-2011 | Posts: 1,296
Joined: Jan 2008
Pity you bought -R discs not -RE which are RW by the way, but any software worth its salt will make Blu Rays of the sorce material quality,i have made 68 on far from elaborate software.If you want a simple edit get all the clips on your time line then in make movie choose BLU RAY option for render,remember not to have more material than best quality Blu Ray will allow.
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
12:41 PM Liked: 16
post #15 of 41
12-20-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
The only way I know how to do this is to import all of my avchd clips from the camcorder onto the vegas pro timeline, then click 'render as' and render it to Sony AVC/MVC and the audio stream as dolby digital 5.1

Then I load the clips into DVD architect and click 'make blu-ray disc'. I'm waiting on the BD-R drive to get here, but there is another quirk to this process as DVD architect always gives me a warning saying that my audio stream needs to be recompressed as it is not complaint (even though it is already in DD 5.1).
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
01:57 PM Liked: 29
post #16 of 41
12-20-2011 | Posts: 3,957
Joined: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

The only way I know how to do this is to import all of my avchd clips from the camcorder onto the vegas pro timeline, then click 'render as' and render it to Sony AVC/MVC and the audio stream as dolby digital 5.1.

Then I load the clips into DVD architect and click 'make blu-ray disc'.

Why would not you drag the original clips to DVDA? Only because you want a single file? Why? For non-destructive cut/join you can use HD Writer or tsMuxer. The latter has an issue with audio sync, but this is solvable with additional tools.
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
02:17 PM Liked: 16
post #17 of 41
12-20-2011 | Posts: 2,522
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I tried to import them directly into DVDA, but at the conclusion of each clip, it returns to the menu screen, instead of proceeding to the next clip. Can you help me with figuring out how to get it to move onto the next clip instead of returning to the main menu each time?

in the meantime, i tried your 'free tools' option, following this guide:




The clips were joined properly into 1 mt2s file and I was able to add chapter markers, import it into DVDA, add a scene selection menu, but I get the following error when I try to 'create blu-ray disc':




these are the file properties of the eac3to/tsmuxer joined original file:



Why wont DVDA recognize that the audio file is already at the correct bitrate and settings already?
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
11:04 PM Liked: 29
post #18 of 41
12-20-2011 | Posts: 3,957
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No idea, really. I had the same problem with DVDA and turned to MultiAVCHD, which works. The problem with MultiAVCHD is that it does not allow more than 255 files and is quite slow when building the title.
flintyplus's Avatar flintyplus
12:22 AM Liked: 23
post #19 of 41
12-21-2011 | Posts: 1,296
Joined: Jan 2008
Get Pinnacle ,click on the first of the captured clips press CTRL A wait for them to load then drag useing the first clip to your timeline they will all then load onto the time line,you can use as much of captured clips on your BD up to 1hr 57m on pinnacle at best quality other software may vary.
qwerty888's Avatar qwerty888
04:51 AM Liked: 10
post #20 of 41
12-21-2011 | Posts: 27
Joined: Aug 2011
Avoid Sony BD burner at all cost
seggers's Avatar seggers
06:20 AM Liked: 24
post #21 of 41
12-21-2011 | Posts: 2,098
Joined: Jan 2008
I have an older LG burner and whatever BD disks I can find. However, I don't generally use it for archiving off my AVCHD camcorder content. I will burn off raw files, but not for the express purpose of archive. The disks go off site and get stored elsewhere as a final backup.

Otherwise I have a RAID1 box with 8.5TB of room (for that and other stuff). With the cost of HDDs crashing, why would you put them soley on media that has not been around long enough to know if it will survive long term storage?

Seggers
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
07:57 AM Liked: 16
post #22 of 41
12-21-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
The simplest thing for my parents is to simply load a disc and watch, that's why this is the easiest option for us. To me, a hard drive can fail just as easily as a disc can become unreadable, except its a lot easier to load a disc than it is to access media off a hard disk (for non techies)
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
01:16 PM Liked: 16
post #23 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
I finally installed the Pioneer blu-ray drive installed. Burned a BD-R disc with my 1 hour test footage like a charm, worked on both players immediately. However:

1. the audio is lagged from the video, less than half a second but still noticable.

2. The audio is only 2 channel AC-3.

I joined the clips together using eac3to/tsmuxer. When I play this back on my computer, the audio/video is synched perfectly, but not when I playback on my bd players.

I created an image file using DVD Architect version 5.2 and it demanded that the clip I was going to author needed to be recompressed. I burned the image file with imageburn, and the result was the above: 2 channel audio and audio lag.

So what can I do? Is there a guide for me to use for MultiAVCHD, or can someone tell me how to do it on that program?
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
01:20 PM Liked: 29
post #24 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 3,957
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MultiAVCHD uses tsMuxer behind the scenes, which may not be desirable for everyone, for example I noticed that most clips from my HDC-SD600 have -33ms or -34ms audio delay, but tsMuxer changes it to -3ms. Not a big deal for most cases, still I would prefer to burn unchanged files. I guess I will be returning to my old approach of taking full card backup, add/remove directories for BD compatibility, and burning it onto DVD or BD. It is much faster that going through pains of DVDA or MultiAVCHD.
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
03:31 PM Liked: 16
post #25 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I guess I will be returning to my old approach of taking full card backup, add/remove directories for BD compatibility, and burning it onto DVD or BD. It is much faster that going through pains of DVDA or MultiAVCHD.

uh sorry if this is a dumb question, but can you please elaborate on what exactly you will be doing, so I can do the same thing?

what directories do I need to add/remove for bd compatibility, and can I just leave all the clips in the Streams folder as is? Can I add more clips to that folder to make it around 25 gigs?
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
06:23 PM Liked: 29
post #26 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 3,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

uh sorry if this is a dumb question, but can you please elaborate on what exactly you will be doing, so I can do the same thing?

what directories do I need to add/remove for bd compatibility, and can I just leave all the clips in the Streams folder as is? Can I add more clips to that folder to make it around 25 gigs?

This is what I used to do couple of years ago. Then I stopped doing that, I decided that I would accumulate 25GB worth of clips and burn them to BDs instead to minimize number of discs and to increase reliability (BDs, at least the non-LTH ones, use inorganic layer and have scratch protection). Turned out that MultiAVCHD cannot create more than 255 clips in one title, DVDA wants to re-encode sound, and other tools want the full directory structure, which I did not preserve. So I am back to square one :-)

I think of backing up 16GB cards onto 25GB BDs, I have no 32GB cards, but if I did I would try to use only about 24GB or so and back them up onto 25GB BDs. As for my 4GB and 8GB cards, they go onto single-layer and double-layer DVDs.

My older player did not play AVCHD, but could be tricked into playing sort of BD content on a DVD disc. For modern players fewer changes probably should be made.
Pepster returns's Avatar Pepster returns
07:16 PM Liked: 17
post #27 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 734
Joined: Jan 2009
Archiving critical data is banned @ my work (VERY LARGE COPORATION) due to unreliablity of optical media.

I do not trust burnt discs at all due to personal experience - worked perfectly just after burn, but just 24hrs later the disc was unreadable. A mate in IT ran a recorvery program for 48hrs, and reocvered about 60% of the data.

Anyhow, spinning dics are just about redundant. Nearly all my mates, family and people in my office, rip CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays etc direct to their media player drives - BEFORE they even use this material for the first time (my self included).

Yesterday I hired 6x 3D Blu-rays - the sales guy said 'you do know that these are overnight hire...? - I just smiled, all discks ripped to HDDs in a couple of hours, and returned the next day.

The point is, that after burning over 2000 optical discs of all types, I haven't burnt a single on for 2 years now - there is just NO NEED to.

I also use 2 identical HDDs for the photos and videos I produce - Seagate USB3 drives are currently the most reliable and fastest USB3.

Workflow
- move your SD files to the PC HDD asap
- delete all the obvious dodgy stuff or quickly rough cut out the junk (eg using the excellent, and FREE video cutter STREAMCLIP).
- move the rough cut files to a portable USB3 drive labelled MASTER
- copy the changes in your master drive to another identical SLAVE drive.
I use the excellent, and FREE, program SYNCBACK.

The MASTER drive stays in your bag, the SLAVE drive stays @ home connected to the media player, so my missus can watch the video and photos anytime on the TV.

If either drive is slolen, lost, or becomes faulty - so what !

I also carry a tiny media player in my bag if I am visiting a some one who may not yet have a media player.

Optical discs are no needed, or desired.

BTW - there is no need to recompress your original footage (ie reduce quality) as HDDs are dirt cheap.
Ou8thisSN's Avatar Ou8thisSN
07:45 PM Liked: 16
post #28 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 2,522
Joined: Jan 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

This is what I used to do couple of years ago. Then I stopped doing that, I decided that I would accumulate 25GB worth of clips and burn them to BDs instead to minimize number of discs and to increase reliability (BDs, at least the non-LTH ones, use inorganic layer and have scratch protection). Turned out that MultiAVCHD cannot create more than 255 clips in one title, DVDA wants to re-encode sound, and other tools want the full directory structure, which I did not preserve. So I am back to square one :-)

I always have/will have less than 255 clips for MultiAVCHD. Do you have a guide or a tutorial I can use to see how I can use that program to create a BD-R?

Or can I simply join all my clips together by Eac3to/Tsmuxer and then import that one file into MultiAVCHD and get it to author a disc (while preserving the 5.1 channel audio)?
Ungermann's Avatar Ungermann
08:19 PM Liked: 29
post #29 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 3,957
Joined: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepster returns View Post

Optical discs are no needed, or desired.

I prefer one copy on an external HDD, another on an optical disc. I have 15-yr old CDs that are still perfectly readable.
bob ross's Avatar bob ross
09:27 PM Liked: 10
post #30 of 41
12-28-2011 | Posts: 203
Joined: Aug 2006
Being someone who's worked in the authoring/duplication industry for 6 years I can say this; media Verbatim. Second only to (some) Taiyo Yuden. Burners, Pioneer - no question.

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