Panasonic HDC-TM90 owner needs advise on camcorder to DVD transfer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-08-2012, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all. Well after researching forums and the internet I decided to make this post because I cant seem to get the tailored info that I need. I just purchased the Panasonic TM90. I am planning on using the TM90 as my primary camcorder. I will be taking my Canon HR10(720p) out of commission. I bought the Canon HR10 so that I could EASILY remove the mini dvd out of my HR10 and pop it into my Playstation 3 and then be able to choose from a thumbnail menu as to what video I want to watch that was recorded on that mini DVD. So with that being said, I would like to be able to EASILY transfer the(video/thumbnail menu's) from my TM90 to a DVD or Blu Ray. Im running an Intel dual 1.8Gig cpu, 2 gig RAM and a decent HD video card. Probably will have to get a Blu Ray burner. Man, I am so behind on technology, I want it to be simple, thats why I went with the HR10 camcorder. I dont need to edit, just transfer the video and thumbnail menus to DVD or Blu Ray for now. Also...... The TM90's manual states "The scenes recorded in 1080/60p cannot be dubbed to a disc with 1080/60p picture quality. They are dubbed after being converted to AVCHD picture quality (As of Jan. 2011)" Yes this is stated on page 113 of the manual. Ok..Now does that mean the video will be converted to AVCHD 1920 X 1080 [1080/60p] picture quality?? Or, will it be converted to AVCHD 1920 X 1080 [HA] picture quality. And Im guessing the HD Writer AE 3.0 will do this conversion before allowing the scenes to be burned to a DVD(or Blu-ray)? Will the Sony VRD-MC6 record the scenes in 1080/60p, hmmm? If 1080/60p is so much better than the [HA] why in the hell can you not dub to a disc. I hope someone can shed some light on all my conundrums, Thanks for any advise..BTW I ran this same post in the Official Tm90 thread, moderate as needed.....Marc in OKC
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-09-2012, 12:34 AM
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Hdwriter will copy your 1080p60 files to your computer as is unchanged.You can do some editing also.
but,they wont play on most bluray player.there not part of bluray specs.
My sony player will play the files on a bluray disc if they are on the disc as data.or from a usb card.
You can watch them on your computer also.Just not to bluray or dvd disc.
Some people get them to play on playstation.do a search on the here,but you have to do a lot on your computer to get it to work.
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post #3 of 9 Old 03-09-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

.....If 1080/60p is so much better than the [HA] why in the hell can you not dub to a disc. I hope someone can shed some light on all my conundrums, Thanks for any advise..BTW I ran this same post in the Official Tm90 thread, moderate as needed.....Marc in OKC

Posting the same topic in two threads is considered rude everywhere there is a forum on the internet. Save the moderator some time and delete one of them yourself.

You might do some reading on Wikipedia. Look up "AVCHD". Basically it is a method to take advantage of high quality data compression put forth by Sony and Panasonic. Version 1.0 did not include 1080p60. Version 2.0 does and it is less than a year old. That is why, on my camcorders 1080p is selected as an alternative to AVCHD choices like "HA". Consequently, only the newest players handle 1080p60 well. It may take another year to see 1080p seamlessly implemented in camcorders, software and players.

Newer Panasonic BD players will accept the SD card from your camera into a slot in the front and it will play 1080p60 in all it's HD glory with a menu. That would be about like doing what you were doing with mini DVDs.

Getting 1080p60 to optical disk is a little trickier. I'm not sure, but I think HD Writer converts it to 1080i when writing to either a Blu-Ray disk (if you have a burner) or AVCHD DVD disk. If you want DVDs, they are always in standard definition.

(Note that you need to understand that an "AVCHD DVD" is a unique use of cheap DVDs to hold up to about 30 minutes of HD video. It is not a "DVD" and won't play in a non Blu-Ray DVD player.)

There are a few other ways to watch 1080p60 on a flat screen HD TV. Hook your camera to the TV with an HDMI cord. Another is to use your computer to directly copy the video file to a "data DVD" and play it in a newer BD player that accepts those files. (Some say a PS3 can do that but peak bit rates of 1080p can overwhelm the PS3.) Another, is to copy the video file to a thumb drive or portable HDD and plug into the USB on newer BD players like current Sony BD players have. Another is to do the same with a USB card reader and the SD card from your camera. Another is to buy a media player like the WD Live TV models. Some stream their files over wifi to their TVs or BD players. You can also plug current laptops to current TVs with HDMI cords.

The "standards wars" over codecs, containers and compression between manufactures have made this complicated. Good luck!

Bill
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post #4 of 9 Old 03-09-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

I would like to be able to EASILY transfer the(video/thumbnail menu's) from my TM90 to a DVD. I dont need to edit, just transfer the video and thumbnail menus to DVD for now.

I believe Canon records thumbnails in AVCHD/AVCHDTN/THUMB.TID and AVCHD/AVCHDTN/THUMB.TDT files. I think that Panasonic camcorders do not store thumbnail files, although I need to double-check. You might need to author thumbnails yourself.
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Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

By the way Im not ready to invest in Blu Ray recordability just yet. I saw this on Amazon, Its the Sony VRD-MC6 DVD AVCHD recorder, maybe thats what I need? See link: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-VRDMC6-DV.../dp/B002EVP85K

Forget about it. You already have a computer with a DVD burner, that is enough.
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Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

The TM90's manual states "The scenes recorded in 1080/60p cannot be dubbed to a disc with 1080/60p picture quality. They are dubbed after being converted to AVCHD picture quality (As of Jan. 2011)" Yes this is stated on page 113 of the manual. Ok..Now does that mean the video will be converted to AVCHD 1920 X 1080 [1080/60p] picture quality?? Or, will it be converted to AVCHD 1920 X 1080 [HA] picture quality. And Im guessing the HD Writer AE 3.0 will do this conversion before allowing the scenes to be burned to a DVD(or Blu-ray)?

By AVCHD they mean AVCHD 1.0, which did not have "AVCHD Progressive" mode. This is limitation of AVCHD 1.0 and of HD Writer. But you can use other tools from simple file copy to third-party authoring programs to preserve 1080p60 on a DVD.

AVCHD 1.0 or 2.0, you will not be able to watch this on a DVD-player. As for PS3, I've heard that it struggles with 1080p60, but if you turn all filters and extra processing off, it can play it more or less fluidly. Search for Steve Sebu's info about 1080p60 playback on PS3.

Read this and come back with more questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD
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post #5 of 9 Old 03-09-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Jam, Ungerman and Bsprague for your answers,all of your answers have very good points, this give me a good starting point...
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post #6 of 9 Old 03-09-2012, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

But you can use other tools from simple file copy to third-party authoring programs to preserve 1080p60 on a DVD.

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Ok I had a few hours of good reading, lots of good stuff here. After taking in what you guys have suggested and I appreciate all you guys have put out there for me to contemplate, this is what I think will be best for me. After getting a better understanding of AVCHD 1.0 and 2.0. The AVCHD 2.0 will support 1080p/60. Now my software that came with the TM90, which is the HD Writer AE 3.0, is supposed to edit the 1080p/60 however, this content cannot be burned to a disc only stored on the PC, I am guessing because of the limitations of the HD Writer 3.0 software??. I want to get my 1080p/60 to a Blu Ray disc, not raw data files to Blu Ray Disc unless thats my only choice. So that being said, Ungerman you say there are "other tools from simple file copy to third-party authoring programs to preserve the 1080p60 to DVD", if I use one of these third party authoring programs, will I be able to record the 1080p60 video to Blu Ray discs on a PC Blu Ray burner and will it play on the 1080p60 compatable Blu Ray players? Some members here say the Sony BDP-S470 supports 1080p/60. So if Im on the right track here then I understand my PS3 may struggle to play the 1080p60 Blu Ray disc due to the bit rates. If so then what third party authoring programs do you suggest that have an EASY learning curve, not clunky,works with Windows 7 Professional and nothing fancy cause I dont need to break the bank. Since burning to a DVD will not allow much recording time per DVD disc, I probably will need to invest in a Blu ray burner for my PC. Any suggestions on a Blu Ray burner that is compatable with the third party authoring programs you will suggest. Thanks
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post #7 of 9 Old 03-10-2012, 07:22 AM
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Step 1: Shoot a test clip in 1080p60 that is about a minute long.

Step 2: Transfer it to your computer with HD Writer and pay attention to where it goes and write down the file name that is most likely a long number.

Step 3: Use Windows Explorer to copy that file (the number.mts), and nothing more, to a DVD data disk. Your goal here is to use your DVD burner and a DVD as a data storage system like you would with important business files.

Step 4: Put the new DVD in the S470 and see if it plays. I bet a couple of blank DVDs that it will. If it doesn't you will need to buy a newer BD player.

While you are at it, look at the size of your 1 minute test movie. What is wrong with 1080p60 is that the files are huge. What is right with the AVCHD system is that the compression works well and the files are smaller.

After you get done with this, shoot another test video in the lowest AVCHD setting and play it the same way. The "engine" in the BD player and TV may make these shots have plenty of eye appeal. The exception will be if there is lots of fast action, like sports or horse racing.

If your videos are so long that they won't fit on a cheap DVD, then get a Blu-Ray burner so you can use expensive Blu-Ray disks. Of course, none of this matters if you are having fun spending money on your hobby because there is lots of cool stuff to buy!

Bill
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post #8 of 9 Old 03-10-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

.....HD Writer AE 3.0, is supposed to edit the 1080p/60 however, this content cannot be burned to a disc only stored on the PC, I am guessing because of the limitations of the HD Writer 3.0 software??.

It think it can be burned to a very high quality and watchable disk in HD Writer. When your camera was designed, manufactured and sold, there were so few 1080p players, it was not included. You have AVCHD 1.0 stuff. You might be far less frustrated if you focus on getting the most out of the very high quality system you have.
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post #9 of 9 Old 03-10-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by unvmy69rs View Post

..... I want to get my 1080p/60 to a Blu Ray disc, not raw data files to Blu Ray Disc.....

You ARE trying to get "raw" data to a disk. You keep writing that you want your original quality 1080p60 files on a playable optical disk. Within HD Writer (AVCHD 1.0) it "cooks" your data into 1080i instead of p, even if you have a BD burner.

Most call it "original quality" video, not "raw" data. And, a better word than "cook" would be "render", since that is the word traditionally used in video.

The hard core of 1080p users like to "combine" or "join" their files to preserve the "raw" or "original" quality. I don't know anything about it, but a program called "multiAVCD" is often used. HD Writer also will "join" original 1080p files and make a new 1080p with the "joined" footage.

Even the hard core of 1080p users accept that few will watch their source files because of the proliferation of viewing choices. When they share their creations with others it will get "cooked" by YouTube, the iPad, the PC, the Android phone, the iPhone and, yes, even the TV itself.

The hard core likes to shoot and store the highest technical quality video they can afford. Then, typically, it gets rendered to the highest picture quality the viewer can watch with the viewers choice of equipment, now or in the future.

Bill
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