BlackMagic Cinema Camera - 2.5K res, 12-bit RAW video camera for $3K! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

What is hoped for is a camera that captures a depth of exposure and, in this case, I think they are bragging about 13 F stops worth of depth for every shade of color.

Which is not possible with 8-bit encoding like AVCHD or HDV, which gives 8 stops at best. If you want more, then get ready to see some banding. More bit depth is needed for wider latitude, which is exactly what encoders used by BM offer.
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post #32 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also of note, no sharpening in-camera or in post on any of those clips. Grading only.

And rumor is the claim of 13 stops of DR is conservative, and it's actually capable of 1-2 stops more.
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post #33 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by DeAnna2112 View Post

Nope links didn't impress me either...expect a whole lot more for that kind of money.

Well prepare for never-ending disappointment then. Nothing even comes close to this camera for the same price, or even for double the money.
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post #34 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Which is not possible with 8-bit encoding like AVCHD or HDV, which gives 8 stops at best. If you want more, then get ready to see some banding. More bit depth is needed for wider latitude, which is exactly what encoders used by BM offer.

There isn't a direct correlation between dynamic range between sensor cutoff and saturation and sampling resolution, but you raise a good point. With all this talk of camera dynamic range, what is the dynamic range of our displays? In the past, the cameras couldn't keep up with the displays. Is it the other way around now?
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post #35 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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post #36 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeAnna2112 View Post


Nope links didn't impress me either...expect a whole lot more for that kind of money.

Wow. Don't think it can get much better given the scene. Maybe, your vimeo is not playing the HD version. Whatever camera you have or could buy for anywhere near the same price would have not rendered the image nearly as well. This is more than what you get with a $16,000 Canon C300, minus the super high ISO ability and larger sensor.

Regardless....this camera created a nearly 200 page thread in two days, because it's pretty much the most revolutionary camera ever brought to a mass market. The grade I did was not intended to be "naturalistic", but more surrealistic. Not every movie you see goes for a naturalistic look, right? Some go for artistic looks. Plus, it's more than 50% down rez and the grade is still from a jpeg, not a true raw, and of course I don't know your monitor calibration...so the image may look vastly different than what I see.

If you want to see a 1080p image so you can see the crispness and detail scroll down below (although there is more to image quality than just that...like um, dynamic range). Not sure what else you can expect out of a camera. Fact is, people will be shooting feature films with this camera pretty soon (here are some of my grades/artistics looks in some cases depending on the mood of a scene. From the jpeg raw, not a true raw. A true raw gives you much more range to play with):















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post #37 of 62 Old 04-20-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lwright84 View Post

Well prepare for never-ending disappointment then. Nothing even comes close to this camera for the same price, or even for double the money.

+1,000!!! You simply cannot win with everyone no matter what you do in life. No matter what movie you make someone will not like it. No matter what you paint, someone will not like it. No matter how good a camera looks someone will not like it. You simply cannot please everyone no matter what.

Some people can't tell the difference between VHS & DVD or DVD & Blu-Ray. I think educating yourself on the flaws of typical video and learning about it helps you see and understand what makes these images superior to the norm and why these image have much more potential (Ie: RAW, 12-Bit Color, 13+ Stops).

I've had a Canon Optura, Canon HV20, Canon T2i and I've shot enough to know what their flaws and limitations are. Canon Optura was terrible in low light. Canon HV20 was a big step up in low light and overall quality. Canon T2i was a huge step up in quality, dynamic range, ability to have selective focus and crushed the HV20 in low light. However, the T2i has moire and aliasing at time and doesn't resolve 1080p. It's compression can be ugly at times too. It falls apart quick during grading. Highlights blow out quicker the less dynamic range you have.

I thinke DeAnna is not understanding the limitations of typical camcorders enough to get why this is such a step up. I think the same scene should have been shot on a typical camcorder to show the difference.

This camera has higher resolution than the camera used to shoot Avatar (and series Dexter) and has the same Dynamic range, maybe higher. Isn't that about a $100,000+ movie camera? Maybe DeAnna works for RED. lol. :P

This is simply a good example of how a high quality DLSR would render the same scene vs The Black Magic Camera:

DSLR (LEFT): Black Magic Ungraded RAW (Middle): Black Magic Graded RAW (Right):

Notice the highlights and tonality. Ever notice on digital camcorders how skin and flaws such as blemishes can seem really brutal and harsh on camera compared to how the eyes see? Well, a big part of this is because they do not have enough dynamic range and have a baked in curve.
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post #38 of 62 Old 04-21-2012, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chevypower View Post

Have you considered the Sony PMW-100?

No, but only because Sony 1/3 or 1/2.9 inch haven't seemed very sharp to me in the past. That and SxS card are more than I would pay for any recording media.
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post #39 of 62 Old 04-21-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by person12 View Post

...SxS card are more than I would pay for any recording media.

You've hit part of the revolutionary nature of this camera right on the head - BlackMagic seems to have made a conscious effort to minimize the expense of the peripherals you have to buy.

No proprietary and expensive recording media (like SxS, P2 and REDMAG), no proprietary batteries (like just about every consumer cam), no proprietary lens mount (sorry, m4/3 users, you're going to have to switch back to EOS lenses), no proprietary codec, etc.

Hopefully, the Thunderbolt RAW output can be converted to HDMI with a $10 Thunderbolt to HDMI cable so you can use your existing EVFs and monitors - but, if not, it will only cost a couple of hundred bucks to convert SDI to HDMI for monitoring.

I'm a Panasonic GH2 guy, but the GH3 is going to have to have global shutter, 1080/60p and clean, uncompressed HDMI out (at the very least) to get me to cancel my MagicCam pre-order.

Cheers,

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post #40 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 08:31 AM
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I'm looking to preorder myself. I have older Nikon stuff So I need to get some new canon lens if I buy this camera. From as far as I can tell there is no onboard IS system for handheld stuff. I was wondering if the built in IS on some of the lens is all I'll need. Also they have a set of handles for this camera to help with stability. Time to make a shopping list.
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post #41 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

the GH3 is going to have to have global shutter

Link?
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post #42 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 09:01 AM
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I'm looking to preorder myself......

I gotta find some money!

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post #43 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 09:24 AM
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The tax returns paid bills this year. I got to dig deep for money this year myself.
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post #44 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

You've hit part of the revolutionary nature of this camera right on the head - BlackMagic seems to have made a conscious effort to minimize the expense of the peripherals you have to buy.

I have to give them nothing but high praise for this. This camera is very close to what the original Red Scarlet (3k for $3k) was supposed to be, bu has a bigger sensor and no lens, which of course evolved into a $16,000 (to even get it up and running) 4K Super 35mm camera, over about 3 years.

They are true PIONEERS with what they are doing here and it's going to change the video/cinema world in a way even the 5D Mark II never did. I feel like Panasonic kind of started this all with the DVX100 for $3,500 and then came the Canon HV20 followed by the 5D Mark II which set the world on fire, on down to the 7D, Canon T2i and then GH2. Unfortunate thing is.....they are NOT listening. They are MILKING their products with small upgrades and intentionally crippling their cameras....ESPECIALLY Canon. It's sad they refuse to capitalize on it.

I am surprised Nikon didn't really take advantage of this. It seems like they kind of tried, but came up short with the D4 and D800. They over clean HDMI and such, but they could have done a lot better. They have no highend video/cinema markets to protect as Canon, Sony & Panasonic do. They should have smashed them in the video department and would have a big advantage.

I'm glad SOMEONE out there (cough....Black Magic Design...cough) was listening for a change.

Quote:


No proprietary and expensive recording media (like SxS, P2 and REDMAG), no proprietary batteries (like just about every consumer cam), no proprietary lens mount (sorry, m4/3 users, you're going to have to switch back to EOS lenses), no proprietary codec, etc.

Something else that made me thrilled to see. Everything RED accessory is RED proprietary and costs and arm and a leg. Their SSD drives for even the minimal acceptable recording space is nearly $2,000 (almost as much as this BMCC camera including DaVinci Resolve 9.0 & UltrasScope for just TWO RED recording SSDs). Ridiculous.

Quote:


Hopefully, the Thunderbolt RAW output can be converted to HDMI with a $10 Thunderbolt to HDMI cable so you can use your existing EVFs and monitors - but, if not, it will only cost a couple of hundred bucks to convert SDI to HDMI for monitoring.

I'm hoping so too.

Quote:


I'm a Panasonic GH2 guy, but the GH3 is going to have to have global shutter, 1080/60p and clean, uncompressed HDMI out (at the very least) to get me to cancel my MagicCam pre-order.

I doubt they will have all of that. Plus, they still will have a baked in picture style. The problem with Global shutter though is it is said to noticeably reduce Dynamic Range. I'd hate to see a GH series camera lose any of its dynamic range. It's already not one of its strong suits.
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post #45 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Link?

You may want to reread his statement. You took it a bit out of context. lol. He was saying those were all of the features the GH3 would have to have when it is announced for him to cancel his Black Magic Cinema Camera preorder.

I doubt the GH3 will have all of those features. If it does have them I'd expect dynamic range to take a hit with the Global Shutter. Sad to say.
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post #46 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 03:50 PM
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The AF100 can be bought right now for $4K plus (actually, minus) $500 rebate. It has XLR inputs, a handle, viewfinder, a bunch of real buttons, it uses common and cheap batteries and has a larger sensor. Sure, AVCHD is a bit of downer, I wish it had Long-G at 50 Mbit/s, but one can use HDMI output for better image.
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post #47 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 07:02 PM
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Does this camera have no image stabilization? Is that all done in the software after the shooting?

Bill
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post #48 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Does this camera have no image stabilization? Is that all done in the software after the shooting?

Bill

No, I don't believe so, but I believe I heard they may be working on it. However, I wouldn't expect it. Most filmmaking user some sort of physical stabilizer such as a Glidecam, Flycam, etc. Or even Warp Stabilizer for After Effects. That software is fantastic.
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post #49 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

The AF100 can be bought right now for $4K plus (actually, minus) $500 rebate. It has XLR inputs, a handle, viewfinder, a bunch of real buttons, it uses common and cheap batteries and has a larger sensor. Sure, AVCHD is a bit of downer, I wish it had Long-G at 50 Mbit/s, but one can use HDMI output for better image.

$4k for the AF100 does not sound like a deal to me at all for a GH2 on steroids. Right now $2k wouldn't even impress me. Not in the same league as this camera....bigger sensor or not. Probably tops out at 8 stops of dynamic range. Most people prefer the hacked Gh2 over it for about $800. If it wasn't overpriced before....it's very overpriced now. After the announcement of this camera combined with $1,600 in free software teh value of the AF100 shot down to about $999 in my book.

Definitely not going to pay even half of $4,000 now that BMD is offering much more camera for quite a bit less (even if excluding the $1,600 in software). If I were going to spend that kind of money for something other than the Black Magic Cinema Camera I'd rather go for Sony FS100U any day of the week over the AF100. You get slow-mo 60p capability....vastly superior low light....not even the 5D Mark III can touch its low light. It has higher dynamic range, better picture profiles and is Super 35mm with a native 1080p sensor.....giant pixels = more light gathering.

Pair the FS100U with an F1.4 lens you can literally shoot surprisingly good footage with just the moonlight.
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post #50 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 07:48 PM
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I think that the AF100 is a much better camera for cinematic news (watch Al Jazeera much?), while the BM camera is strictly for something that can afford long setup time: no buttons means awkward handling. No viewfinder either. And are these mic inputs XLR or regular minijacks?
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post #51 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I think that the AF100 is a much better camera for cinematic news (watch Al Jazeera much?), while the BM camera is strictly for something that can afford long setup time: no buttons means awkward handling. No viewfinder either. And are these mic inputs XLR or regular minijacks?

Well, the Black Magic Cinema Camera is aimed specifically at filmmakers who want dynamic range similar to film, RAW images/workflow and 12-bit color. Obviously the AF100 may be a better option for a frantic run & gun style of shooting, but this camera is not aimed at Run & Gun shooters and most people interested in the camera realize this. Most of us wanting this camera are filmmakers who plan to take time setting up their scene. However, it seems fairly easy to use to just pick up and start shooting from what I've seen. It's not overly complicated by any means and the extra dynamic range helps in recording scenes other cameras cannot render well.

I believe it takes a regular 3.5mm jack, but could be wrong. Most likely I'll record the important audio to a Zoom H4N.

Like I said though. For $4k I'd look into finding a used FS100U, but different strokes for different folks, I say.
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post #52 of 62 Old 04-22-2012, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Link?

I said it was 'going to have to have' - not is 'going to have'...

That said, there has been recent speculation on the rumor sites that this is likely: http://www.43rumors.com/the-next-bat...panasonic-gh3/

Cheers,

Bill
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post #53 of 62 Old 04-23-2012, 05:45 PM
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The af100 rebate expired unfortunately
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post #54 of 62 Old 04-23-2012, 10:30 PM
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The af100 rebate expired unfortunately

Is it June 30 already?
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post #55 of 62 Old 04-23-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Is it June 30 already?

Afaik it ended march 31

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...AF100-Purchase

http://www.newmediamajors.com/2012/0...0-and.html?m=0

http://www.rebateplace.com/detail_ex...0&CFTOKEN=1355


It WAS until march 31st. People all over dvxuser were talking about it ending right before nab. If it got extended its brand new
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post #56 of 62 Old 04-23-2012, 11:48 PM
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It WAS until march 31st. People all over dvxuser were talking about it ending right before nab. If it got extended its brand new

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWor...c_AG-AF100.pdf
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post #57 of 62 Old 04-23-2012, 11:50 PM
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Ok then it was extended
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post #58 of 62 Old 04-30-2012, 04:35 AM
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post #59 of 62 Old 04-30-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson View Post

...I believe it takes a regular 3.5mm jack, but could be wrong. Most likely I'll record the important audio to a Zoom H4N...

M - it takes two pro 1/4" balanced mic or line jacks and records 24 bit 48kHz audio. It's easy enough to go from XLR to 1/4", and the bit rate is good enough for pro audio work, but the lack of phantom power is a problem.

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post #60 of 62 Old 04-30-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

M - it takes two pro 1/4" balanced mic or line jacks and records 24 bit 48kHz audio. It's easy enough to go from XLR to 1/4", and the bit rate is good enough for pro audio work, but the lack of phantom power is a problem.

Bill
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Is there no phantom power adapter or anything that can be used in conjunction with the camera?

What about one of these? Still a problem?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FG795I/...hvptwo=&hvqmt=

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Sterling...&cagpspn=pla&=

BTW, are you still getting the FS700 (read your blog. hehe) or are you getting both this and the FS700. I'd love to have the FS700 as well. Super Slow-Mo would be great, but I think the 4K Upgrade later on will cost at least $4,000 and who knows how much the 4K recorder will be. Dynamic range is a big ? mark as well. I also think the low light will take a bit of a hit from the F100U due to the smaller pixels, but we shall see.

I sure wouldn't mind having just the previous FS100U in addition to the BMC for wider or low light shots. It's crazy when you think about it like this, you can get both the BMC and the FS100U for about $8,000 or less (still possiblly $2,000 less than the FS700), shoot 13 stops, 12-bit 2.5k RAW when needed or shoot good 60p slow-mo (maybe even twixtor it for that high frame rate super slo-mo), shoot great low light when needed & go wide when required for possibly a couple grand less than the FS700 (not to mention color grade with $1,000 DaVinci Resolve 9.0 for free). I was pumped about the FS700 at first, but thinking of it like this I don't think a bit more super slow mo with potential to record 4K for who knows how much more money is worth that much more. By then Black Magic may release their $4k camera for $5,000 without needing a pricey firmware upgrade. lol.
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