Need a better camcorder to keep focus - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been lately shooting model railroad layouts for my friends with my sony SR11. While it shoots a beautiful video with great quality in most situations, the one area in the video it has trouble is the focus. Depth of field is another area, but that is another matter.

The trains on the layout are moving and it is difficult to keep them in focus with this cam. I have tried both auto and manual focus. The auto focus has trouble staying focused on the main target, losing focus whenever anything comes between the cam and the subject. Also, when the subject is not directly in the center of the shot, I lose focus. With manual focus, that little turn knob is not very efficient, nor user friendly. It does not react quick enough when the train rounds a corner and starts coming towards me. A ring would have been much better than that little turn knob. So here is my question:

Is there a camcorder below $1400 that will be better for me, easier to use and more effective at keeping a moving subject in focus, while providing a quality video resolution like the SR11? I would prefer Sony, but will consider others.

As to depth of field, I know my problem and that is I cannot get far enough distance away from my subject to increase the depth of field.

Thanks.
Mike
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post #2 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 05:54 AM
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The Sony line of camcorders (and maybe other brands) offer focus tracking, which promises, once the subject is selected, to follow the subject in focus wherever it goes on the screen - and even if it leaves and comes back. It makes use of the touch-screen lcd - you place your finger on the subject you want to be tracked, a rectangle around the subject pops up, you start recording and watch the rectangle hover over the subject as it moves around.
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post #3 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. How well does it really work? Is there anyone out there that has actually used this, especially in close up work?
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post #4 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 08:19 AM
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It works quite well on my Sony HX9V for moving grandkids and dogs. I don't have any way to test it on model trains (although I used to!). You might try the current version HX20V from someone like B&H who will take anything back for 30 days. You would get to keep most of a $1000 out of your budget. To ease my own conscious, I would tell them I have a specific goal for the focus tracking and if it fails, it will be returned.

Another camera getting attention lately is the Sony HDR-GW77. Though odd looking for those used to traditional styles, it is sure to have focus tracking. There is an active thread going on it and by bet is that Mark would find a way to test the focus tracking feature for you.

I don't think you need to spend anywhere near $1400.

Good luck.

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post #5 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 10:55 AM
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The GW77 has focus tracking. Send me the trains and I am your man!

Seriously, if focus tracking works well for active dogs and kids - whose movements are unpredictable and discontinuous - it will certainly (in theory) work well for trains that run in one direction on straight lines or curves. Trains also have sharp edges, so it is easier to achieve focus (as opposed to objects that have no edges or lines).

One way to test focus tracking without moving subjects is to spot focus on an object and move the camera around as jerkily as possible - up and down and in and out - and see if that object remains in focus as it moves around - and even outside - the frame. Of course, do this up close so other parts in the frame other than the object are not in focus.Also zoom in and out - most DSLRs lose focus when the lens is zoomed.

If there is a BestBuy close by, just try one of the Sony models out in the store, using the above technique (or pick a BestBuy employee to track).
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post #6 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Yes there is a BB in town here, however their selection of camcorders on display is pathetic....all low end models.
Bill. I am not familiar with the HX20V. Who makes it? What about Sonys' other camcorders?

Mark, too bad I cannot send you the trains, as they are solidly in my basement. However if I could figure out a way to send you my video, I would. I am not all that tech savy, but I am not totally incompetant. But don't quote me on that.

Mike
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post #7 of 30 Old 08-01-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post

...Bill. I am not familiar with the HX20V. Who makes it?
It is a Sony and looks like a point-n-shoot. HX20V on Amazon. For reasons I don't understand, Sony put serious 1080p60 video capability into a pocket camera in a series that included the HX9V, and now the replacement HX20V. What is wrong with it is also what is right with it. Since it looks like a toy, you won't be taken seriously as a videographer. But, since you don't look like a videographer you get better video because the subjects don't have such a negative reaction to being videoed. Of course, trains would not have a reaction, but your friends might not think you have enough camera. Put HX9V into YouTube and Vimeo searches and look at the results. All the important things are there including image stabilization, auto focus, zoom, focus tracking, etc.

Best...
Bill
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post #8 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bill. Boy, I just don't know about the HX20V. I have read in these forums that if you want a videocam, get a videocam, not a still camera. Perhaps I should add more information about what I am looking for.
I need this camcorder to not only be able to shoot small subjects like model trains, but also expansive subjects like The Grand Tetons, with a good telephoto zoom, etc. Sorry I did not qualify my requests in the beginning.

So while I appreciate the suggestion of the HX20V, I don't think it would be enough camcorder for me.

Mike
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post #9 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 05:57 AM
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If you are happy with your Sony, the latest version (the CX760v or CX710v without the viewfinder) is similar in ergonomics and manual controls, but now has the focus tracking (by placing you finger on the screen), much better stabilization, and a wider angle lens (for your Grand Tetons). I think the quality of the video was improved as well.

You should be able to trade in your current camcorder at many places (Crutchfield, BH) so the additional cost will be less. But for this expenditure, I agree that it would be nice to try the focus tracking yourself to make sure it does what you need.
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post #10 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark. I have thought about the 760, but only know what has been written about it on the net. As for trading in the SR11, I was unaware of being able to do that at B&H. It is at the upper end of what I want to spend, but will have to keep my eyes open for more info on the net about the 760. The only thing I do not like about the Sony consumer cams is that little knob for adjusting focus, etc. A barrel ring would be so much nicer and easier to use. But with Spot Focus, I guess that would sorta take care of that problem.
Will also have to do a little research on the HDR-GW77.
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post #11 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 10:21 AM
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The CX760 is the only Sony with at least a knob for manual focus. I agree a lens ring is much better - but the touch focus does the job. The other Sony camcorders manually focus by moving a finger on the lcd, much less good than a dial, but again there is hardly any need for that given touch spot focus. The 760 also adds pro manual focus aids: focus peaking and expanded focus (blows up the view so you can see more clearly).

I looked up the SR11 - there is a BIG step up in video quality with the 760: the highest-quality HD video setting for the SR11 is 108060i (interlaced) at 16Mbps. For the 760 (like the rest of the Sony 2012 camcorder line), the best video setting is 108060p (progressive) at 28Mbps. Progressive is much better for moving subjects, and the higher bitrate means more detail (I'm simplifying).

Another really neat thing about spot focus by touch: you can, while shooting, change the subject to focus on. So, if you are tracking one train and another crosses you can have the camera track the other train just by putting your finger on that train. Again, while shooting. The camera shifts the focus to the new object gently and then locks and tracks. For the Grand Tetons: focus on the nearby bush and then shift the focus to the distant peak, without moving the camera or stopping the shot. The touch screen, while not as good as buttons or dials for settings, is just great for focus tricks.

If you don't care about having the knob and the extra manual controls of the 760 and the viewfinder, the medium-level Sony's (like the CX580v) will give you better-quality video (108060p at 28Mbps) than your current camera and the touch focus tracking feature and better stabilization at much lower cost.
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post #12 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Boy, it is hard to believe that the 760 would produce that much better video than the SR11. I don't doubt you, it is just that the SR11 produces some nice stuff. It too has the little focus knob (for other features too), but the spot focus sounds great. I know I can buy telephoto lenses to add to the 760 (10X zoom just isn't enought), but I would need at least 2.5 or more and I suspect that would be expensive; but that is another issue.
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post #13 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 01:02 PM
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Mark,

I am considering the Sony NX30 as my next camcorder, since I had several other "low-end" prosumer cameras before. Do you think the extra 500 bucks is worthy compared to the CX760 ? Besides the audio , is there anything else better on the NX30 ? What about the IS ? Is it the same on both camcorders ? I have been reading great stuff about the new image stabilizer on these cameras.

Thank you very much and sorry if this is a bit off topic.

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post #14 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 01:29 PM
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Everything is the same - including the new balanced IS - except the audio and you get a bigger battery (twice the capacity) and the adaptor for a direct connect of a hard drive (you can buy both separately for the 560) and professional time code. And you get the built-in projector - the real comparison is with the PJ760v, which has the projector also. The difference in price between the NX30u and the PJ760 is $400.
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post #15 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 01:34 PM
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"I know I can buy telephoto lenses to add to the 760 (10X zoom just isn't enought),."

Now there is "extended zoom" (not to be mistaken for "digital" zoom, which degrades quality) on the 2012 models - on the 760 up to 17X without the added lens. This uses the extra pixels beyond what is needed for HD so there is no loss in resolution and no reduction in dof from 10x through 17x. It really works well - the extra pixels are also used for the "active" part of the stabilization. The stabilization is really much improved, along with video quality. The 17x is not 2.5, but then it is "free."

I know the SR11 video is good, but when you compare you will be amazed (on a 1080 screen).
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post #16 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, what I have learned is that Spot Focus is available on the Sony and it really works. Also, the advancement of the video quality from my SR11 to the 760 is substantial. And as a bonus, Extended Zoom is available and does not degrade the video quality.
Now what doesn't the GW77 have that the 760 has? There must be several things missing with the 77 due to the difference in price from the 760.

Thanks again Mark.

Mike

Oh and one more question. Will a seperate additional telephoto lens still work with the "extended zoom" engaged on the 760?
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post #17 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 03:11 PM
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What the GW77 lacks relative to the 760:

1. Any ability to add an extender lens (but it does have the 17X extended zoom).

2. No focus dial (but it does have manual focus).

3. The stabilization is not as good as the 760, but better than the SR11 and excellent.

4. No manual control of shutter (but it does have manual exposure, wb, and focus).

5. No external mic input.

6. No 5.1 surround audio (stereo only).

7. No viewfinder.

8. 16GB internal memory versus 96Gb for the 760.

9. No ability to screw on filters (but there is a filter solution).

10. No direct copy from the camcorder to a hard disc.

11. 26mm versus 29 mm for the GW77 at wide angle.

12. No video light (but there is flash).

Of course, the GW77 weighs almost one pound less, with battery, and is pocketable and shockproof, waterproof and dustproof.



And, yes, the extended zoom feature also works with any optical lens extender and so multiplies it.


The Sony CX580v costs $100 more than the GW77, but it has 5.1 audio, the ability to add filters and lens extender, external mic input, direct copy, 12X optical, 20X extended, 32GB internal memory, and video light.
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post #18 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 04:28 PM
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Example video: Focus Tracking and Focus Shift



Select 1080p


The script:

First clip: Focus on close object, then move the camera right and left. Then shift focus to object in back, move the camera right and left. Object that is supposed to be in focus stays in focus despite moving across the screen or having a subject nearby in front or in back.

Second clip: Flower in back left is in focus, then shift to flower in front right then back to flower in back left.

1080p video at twilight.

Focus is where you tell the camera to focus, not where it is easiest to focus: bricks or bushes with sharp edges in background.
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post #19 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool. It seems to work really well. I am impressed. Did not see anything about 1080p at twilight. Anyway, the 760 seems to be my top hope at this moment, but I will reserve judgement/purchase until I do more research. From your lists of lacking items with the 77, I think I might just eliminate that from consideration. Your example was great, though.

Don't know anything about the 580, but will look into it. Is there a camcorder just below the 760 that has most of the features but is slightly less money, but will perform similarly? Isn't there a 710 or something? Am very interested in the spot focus, the I.S., and the great lens. This may well be my last major camcorder purchase, so I want to get the best that I can easily afford.

Mike
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post #20 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 05:43 PM
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Any explanation why the 580 has a better zoom than the 760 ?

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post #21 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 05:56 PM
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1. The pj710v is the same as the cx760 but without the viewfinder, 32GB of memory but it has the projector. It is on sale everywhere for $1199, $300 less than the CX760 (whch does not have the built-in projector).

2. The lens on the 580 and the 760 is not the same. The sensor is smaller on the 580 compared to the 760 (1/2.88" versus 1/3.91"), so it may easier to make a slightly longer zoom with the same aperture without increasing size. On the cheapest Sony camcorders, the optical zoom is 25X, and the sensor is 1/5.8".
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post #22 of 30 Old 08-02-2012, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

1. 2. The lens on the 580 and the 760 is not the same. The sensor is smaller on the 580 compared to the 760 (1/2.88" versus 1/3.91"), so it may easier to make a slightly longer zoom with the same aperture without increasing size. On the cheapest Sony camcorders, the optical zoom is 25X, and the sensor is 1/5.8".

Thank you Mark. I learn a lot with your posts and appreciate what you do here.

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post #23 of 30 Old 08-03-2012, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Well then the 710 is out; need a viewfinder. Also, don't want the smaller sensor. Thanks Mark.
Too bad the choices with Sony seems to be choosing between better zoom or better sensor.....without being able to have both. Guess to do that one would have to move up to the more expensive, better camcorders.

Thanks for your patience and help Mark.

Mike

PS. Hopefully the 760 will begin to be offered at a lower price soon. Been at its current price for several months now.
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post #24 of 30 Old 08-03-2012, 05:59 AM
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Mike,

Why don't you see how much your current camcorder is worth at B&H or Adorama or Crutchfield? The longer you wait, the lower the value. You can do this online at Crutchfield; no obligation as they say.
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post #25 of 30 Old 08-03-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Mike,
Why don't you see how much your current camcorder is worth at B&H or Adorama or Crutchfield? The longer you wait, the lower the value. You can do this online at Crutchfield; no obligation as they say.

They have a page on their website to find out the value before trading in.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/trade-in.jsp
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post #26 of 30 Old 08-03-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. Will give it a whirl.

Mike
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post #27 of 30 Old 08-09-2012, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Checked out trading in my SR11 at BH. As expected, I probably will be able to sell it to someone and get more for it. Will have to see.
Fortunately, I am in no big rush to get my next Camcorder, so i can wait to see when Sony will drop the price on the CX760. I hope that the replacement for the 760 won't be that much of an improvement where I will have to agonize over which to get. I am not all that likely to switch to another company, since there are occasions where I use two cams on a shoot, and my other cam is a Sony FX7 (yes, I know, old, old technology). Not sure about mixing the videos of two cams from two different companies....so I have only been thinking about Sony.

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post #28 of 30 Old 08-09-2012, 08:10 AM
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Why not trade in the FX7? The CX760 seems to be superior in every way - including the LCD (much higher resolution), the stabilization, the lens, and by far the quality of the video - 1920x1080 vs 1140x1080, for example. Plus no more tapes. The CX760 will likely better match the SR11. I see the FX7 has a longer reach, though, than the CX760 (20x optical versus 17X optical+extended).
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post #29 of 30 Old 08-09-2012, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I like the FX7, even though I know it is really dated. Plus, I would keep it and use it to play the tapes that I currently have as archive tapes. The only times I would use the FX7 in the field is when I need that reach provided by the 20x zoom. Otherwise, the SR11 and (hopefully) the CX760 will work well together. Of course, if I can sell the SR11, then it will have to work with the FX7, which on SD DVDs, shouldn't show that much of a difference in video quality (I hope). However, I realize that on a BR DVD, or with an AVCHD DVD, there very well could be a significant difference, wouldn't there?

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post #30 of 30 Old 08-10-2012, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like to take this opportunity to thank all who had the patience to answer my questions and put up with my speculations. It is a learning process for me, and being a slow learner, it takes a bit of effort to accomodate.
there is a good chance that I will be getting a CX760 in the future, and when I do, I will post my impressions.

Mike
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