Can we talk inexpensive editing? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 11-04-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I know this is a camcorder forum, but I would very much like to know if anybody has any opinions about Magix editing programs. I asked on another forum, but have had no responses. That either means noone uses it, or that noone is reading that other forum.

Thanks.
Railfan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 11-04-2012, 06:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
You probably know that I am a fan of Premier Elements, now in version 11. The current price is about $90.

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #3 of 28 Old 11-05-2012, 09:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,841
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I tried one a while ago. I could just throw $15 directly into trash.

If you want to start a meaningful conversation, you should list features that you need. Looking at features, Vegas Platinum would totally work for me if they offered levels monitor and vectorscope. Sadly, these features are present in Pro only. The other time I tried Premiere I was dissatisfied by its rigid project settings: something is either supported or not, I could not fine-tune my project. I've heard that now Premiere allows custom project settings. Is this right, Bill?
Ungermann is online now  
post #4 of 28 Old 11-05-2012, 11:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

...... Vegas Platinum would totally work for me if they offered levels monitor and vectorscope. Sadly, these features are present in Pro only. The other time I tried Premiere I was dissatisfied by its rigid project settings: something is either supported or not, I could not fine-tune my project. I've heard that now Premiere allows custom project settings. Is this right, Bill?
I have no idea what a "levels monitor" or "vector scope" is!

I know nothing about Premier Pro. The new $90 version 11 of Premier Elements automatically sets the project presets when you slide the first clip on to the timeline and it is the first version to officially support 1080p60/50. So you pick a primary clip and start with it. Earlier versions were more manual and you could make a mistake. I think the project presets in Premier Elements have more to do with the real time editing preview monitor than the final output. For that, there are choices to match every delivery avenue I have heard of or seen.

Oddly, Premier Elements and Premier Pro are less related than most would assume. They have two different development teams and are located in different parts of the world. The credits screen that opens at the start of Elements lists names like Ankouj, Rumjum and Ram while Lightroom lists names like Paul and Peter. I assume Premier Pro has the more USA sounding names as well.

To your point about the OP listing features he needs, that is difficult for a beginner, assuming he is one. When you and others started training me two years ago on this forum, I had now idea what "render" even meant, let alone that I wanted software that did that. Only until I took a couple (fun) online courses did I know what features editing software COULD provide. Now, I am busy learning and trying the ones I actually NEED. Now I could make a list. It would not include a levels monitor or a vector scope because those weren't in my training!

Until I stopped screwing around reading and trying every NLE with a free or cheap trial, I got nowhere. I had to pick one, focus on it and learn it well enough to be useful. I picked Adobe because I found so much training material to go with it. Of course now I am Adobe brainwashed and a fanboy. The part of my brain that thinks in video has an Adobe workflow in it.

My advice to anyone, beginner or not, is to pick something with a known brand name and a significant share of the market. Then learn it and don't look back or get off the chosen track.

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #5 of 28 Old 11-05-2012, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thanks, Guys. I have been using Pinnacle for several years, producing numerous programs from family vacations to "documentaries" of railroads around the midwest (which I sell). I have recently switched to Power Director to see how it compared. I have been having problems with Power Director (doesn't like my ASUS driver), so I have been looking at other editors. Perhaps I should follow Bills' example and just settle on one program; if only I could find one that works for me.

These are the things I want in an NLE:
1) Be able to capture AVCHD and produce an AVCHD DVD.
2) Easy and intuitive trimming of video clips on the timeline, as well as manuvering video clips within the timeline with ease.
3) Some good post production tools for adjusting video color, saturation, adusting other video properties like white balance, etc.
4) I good cropping tool and some kind of stabiliazing of shaky video.
5) Be able to combine video clips from an AVCHD camcorder and an HDV camcorder and produce a nice clear program as an AVCHD DVD, or as a standard DVD.
6) A few decent, conservative transistions between clips, and some nice menus.
7) A nice, selection of music (more than just a few) (free if possible).
8) Be able to produce a AVCHD video program on DVD that has a very good picture and great sound. I have found a range of sound qualities in different NLEs that range from OK to wonderful. I shoot trains and when I want to watch them on my Plasma and Home Theater setup, I want my neighbors to feel the sound of those engines, even when I don't turn the sound up too much.

I am sure there may be a couple of other things, but I can't think of them right now. What I don't want are a lot of cutsy, frivilous, goofy stuff.....not into that nonsence. 3D? Not there yet. Being able to easily connect and download to Youtube, etc., not there yet, but may be soon.

Oh yes, the NLE should have some tools for working with the audio also.

Mike (Railfan)

PS. When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams.
Railfan is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 11-05-2012, 06:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Mike,

My copy of Premier Elements 10 did all that. My copy of version 11 does them better, especially the 1080p60 that your next camcorder will do so well.

About #1: You can capture by plugging in the camcorder. It is a lot easier to transfer the files from the SD card with any method you prefer.
About #2: Absolutely
About #3: Easy. They are called "effects". There are so many of them, it is hard to explain.
About #4: Both included.
About #5: I don't have an HDV camcorder, but the instructions say that will work. Don't know how to test it for you. But, AVCHD DVDs and standard DVDs are easy. So are Blu-Rays and uploads to YouTube or Vimeo.
About #6: There are some easy and gentle cross dissolves, fades to black and a whole bunch of other fancy stuff.
About #7: It includes a few free things and allows easy access to stuff you have to buy. But, anything you have, or can find for free, can be imported to one of the 99 audio tracks with full control. ( I've started a collection of free audio tracks I can use when I want.)
About #8: Adobe is in the sound business and a lot of that shows up in Premier Elements. There are a bunch of audio effects and filters that I don't understand yet. It gives you lots of control on the audio tracks.

One thing Adobe does with "consumer" software is include the OPTION of some "cutsy, frivilous, goofy stuff", but they are easily ignored. For example, it will produce an "instant movie" with a birthday party "theme". I ignore that.

Maybe the best part is the quality of the training. For about $30 and a few hours of watching video lessons, you can be a master!

Good luck!

Bill

PS: "When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams."

I think I just did that on my last project by mistake. I can check if you want me to try it.
bsprague is online now  
post #7 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Mike,
My copy of Premier Elements 10 did all that. My copy of version 11 does them better, especially the 1080p60 that your next camcorder will do so well.
About #1: You can capture by plugging in the camcorder. It is a lot easier to transfer the files from the SD card with any method you prefer.
About #2: Absolutely
About #3: Easy. They are called "effects". There are so many of them, it is hard to explain.
About #4: Both included.
About #5: I don't have an HDV camcorder, but the instructions say that will work. Don't know how to test it for you. But, AVCHD DVDs and standard DVDs are easy. So are Blu-Rays and uploads to YouTube or Vimeo.
About #6: There are some easy and gentle cross dissolves, fades to black and a whole bunch of other fancy stuff.
About #7: It includes a few free things and allows easy access to stuff you have to buy. But, anything you have, or can find for free, can be imported to one of the 99 audio tracks with full control. ( I've started a collection of free audio tracks I can use when I want.)
About #8: Adobe is in the sound business and a lot of that shows up in Premier Elements. There are a bunch of audio effects and filters that I don't understand yet. It gives you lots of control on the audio tracks.
One thing Adobe does with "consumer" software is include the OPTION of some "cutsy, frivilous, goofy stuff", but they are easily ignored. For example, it will produce an "instant movie" with a birthday party "theme". I ignore that.
Maybe the best part is the quality of the training. For about $30 and a few hours of watching video lessons, you can be a master!
Good luck!
Bill
PS: "When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams."
I think I just did that on my last project by mistake. I can check if you want me to try it.

Thanks Bill. I will comment tomorrow; and ask questions. Today I work at my voter precinct all day and into the night.
Railfan is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 06:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
xfws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Download the trial version to any editing software you are interested in and try it before you buy.
xfws is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 08:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dan4081's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Mike,
My copy of Premier Elements 10 did all that. My copy of version 11 does them better, especially the 1080p60 that your next camcorder will do so well.
About #1: You can capture by plugging in the camcorder. It is a lot easier to transfer the files from the SD card with any method you prefer.
About #2: Absolutely
About #3: Easy. They are called "effects". There are so many of them, it is hard to explain.
About #4: Both included.
About #5: I don't have an HDV camcorder, but the instructions say that will work. Don't know how to test it for you. But, AVCHD DVDs and standard DVDs are easy. So are Blu-Rays and uploads to YouTube or Vimeo.
About #6: There are some easy and gentle cross dissolves, fades to black and a whole bunch of other fancy stuff.
About #7: It includes a few free things and allows easy access to stuff you have to buy. But, anything you have, or can find for free, can be imported to one of the 99 audio tracks with full control. ( I've started a collection of free audio tracks I can use when I want.)
About #8: Adobe is in the sound business and a lot of that shows up in Premier Elements. There are a bunch of audio effects and filters that I don't understand yet. It gives you lots of control on the audio tracks.
One thing Adobe does with "consumer" software is include the OPTION of some "cutsy, frivilous, goofy stuff", but they are easily ignored. For example, it will produce an "instant movie" with a birthday party "theme". I ignore that.
Maybe the best part is the quality of the training. For about $30 and a few hours of watching video lessons, you can be a master!
Good luck!
Bill
PS: "When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams."
I think I just did that on my last project by mistake. I can check if you want me to try it.

Where do you go to watch the video lessons?
Im interested!

Revo Ion...XBMC For Windows...Dharma RC2
dan4081 is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 09:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan4081 View Post

Where do you go to watch the video lessons?
Im interested!

There are several choices. I found them all through Adobe's learning center. Adobe encourages anyone to submit training in video format for all their products. I watched some randomly and figured out the good ones are teaser chapters from the full featured courses. Learning randomly is OK, but I learn better with something that has a beginning and natural flow to an ending.

There is also the choice of buying courses on DVD or watching online under a subscription plan.

The first source is http://www.lynda.com where you can find courses for nearly every software program in existance. I completed the Photoshop Elements 10 and Premier Elements 10 courses here. They have finished their Photoshop Elements 11 course and I'm still waiting for the new Premier Elements 11 course. Within each course there are always some free chapters so you can see what you might get. You "subscribe". For $25 per month you can watch everything listed. If I want to learn something new I start a subscription and cancel it the next day. It allows me to use it for a month and automatically shut off without further billing. Some courses are also available on disk at a higher price.

Another option is video2brain. I think they are in Germany but courses are available in English They don't have as many courses as lynda.com, but are the first to have a course on Premier Elements 11. Their monthly rate is about $15. I have not taken anything on line from them but completed their course on Lightroom 4 by buying the disk at Amazon. (video2brain at Amazon for Lightroom) Their new Premier Elements 11 course is available there as well. (video2brain at Amazon on PrE11)

A third choice is a quick and free 8 part introduction to PrE 11 at Steve Grisettie's MuviPix.com. Scroll down and look to the left here: Free PrE11 intro videos. Steve is a very active responder on the Adobe user forums and works hard to answer questions there. Buy doing so, he can plug his books and website.

What makes this effective for me is the ability to watch exactly what I want to learn on my screen with a voice describing the process. You can pause the course, open the software and try the technique in another window. You can't do that in a classroom! All of Adobe's products can be downloaded and used for a month for free too.

As I have posted elsewhere, one of the things I like about Adobe products is the widely available training resources. Graphics software is complex and sometimes hard to understand. It does not seem that anyone is better at facilitating independent people and companies to develop learning methods than Adobe.

Have fun learning!

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #11 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 09:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfws View Post

Download the trial version to any editing software you are interested in and try it before you buy.
That is a lot of fun, but with respect, I disagree.

I wasted a year trying things out. I found that it wasn't effective to try out all the unique ways each editor worked to be able make a good evaluation. There are 20 or 30 different NLEs on the market!

Compared to buying equipment, there is not a lot of money involved with consumer software. I made much faster progress once I committed to one, spent the $90 or so, got it installed and paid $25 for some online training.

I would still be fumbling with new software and not doing any real editing if continued to try the free trials.

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #12 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dan4081's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

There are several choices. I found them all through Adobe's learning center. Adobe encourages anyone to submit training in video format for all their products. I watched some randomly and figured out the good ones are teaser chapters from the full featured courses. Learning randomly is OK, but I learn better with something that has a beginning and natural flow to an ending.
There is also the choice of buying courses on DVD or watching online under a subscription plan.
The first source is http://www.lynda.com where you can find courses for nearly every software program in existance. I completed the Photoshop Elements 10 and Premier Elements 10 courses here. They have finished their Photoshop Elements 11 course and I'm still waiting for the new Premier Elements 11 course. Within each course there are always some free chapters so you can see what you might get. You "subscribe". For $25 per month you can watch everything listed. If I want to learn something new I start a subscription and cancel it the next day. It allows me to use it for a month and automatically shut off without further billing. Some courses are also available on disk at a higher price.
Another option is video2brain. I think they are in Germany but courses are available in English They don't have as many courses as lynda.com, but are the first to have a course on Premier Elements 11. Their monthly rate is about $15. I have not taken anything on line from them but completed their course on Lightroom 4 by buying the disk at Amazon. (video2brain at Amazon for Lightroom) Their new Premier Elements 11 course is available there as well. (video2brain at Amazon on PrE11)
A third choice is a quick and free 8 part introduction to PrE 11 at Steve Grisettie's MuviPix.com. Scroll down and look to the left here: Free PrE11 intro videos. Steve is a very active responder on the Adobe user forums and works hard to answer questions there. Buy doing so, he can plug his books and website.
What makes this effective for me is the ability to watch exactly what I want to learn on my screen with a voice describing the process. You can pause the course, open the software and try the technique in another window. You can't do that in a classroom! All of Adobe's products can be downloaded and used for a month for free too.
As I have posted elsewhere, one of the things I like about Adobe products is the widely available training resources. Graphics software is complex and sometimes hard to understand. It does not seem that anyone is better at facilitating independent people and companies to develop learning methods than Adobe.
Have fun learning!
Bill

Thanks for the great post!
Im going to be all over this....the Lynda.com sounds perfect to me.

Revo Ion...XBMC For Windows...Dharma RC2
dan4081 is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 12:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xfws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

That is a lot of fun, but with respect, I disagree.
I wasted a year trying things out. I found that it wasn't effective to try out all the unique ways each editor worked to be able make a good evaluation. There are 20 or 30 different NLEs on the market!
Compared to buying equipment, there is not a lot of money involved with consumer software. I made much faster progress once I committed to one, spent the $90 or so, got it installed and paid $25 for some online training.
I would still be fumbling with new software and not doing any real editing if continued to try the free trials.
Bill

If you buy software and open it - it can't be returned. Evaluating a trial is at no cost.
xfws is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 11-06-2012, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfws View Post

If you buy software and open it - it can't be returned. Evaluating a trial is at no cost.
You are absolutely right and I did it that way. I tried enough software that I got nothing done. When I committed to one, including spending the money, I was motivated and made much more progress at learn a new skill. If cost were the major factor, I would commit to Windows Movie Maker and master it. My point is that trying to much stuff out got in my way of making real progress.
bsprague is online now  
post #15 of 28 Old 11-07-2012, 03:33 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I appreciate all the responses and dialog for this thread. To Bills credit, he is right in that settling on one product and concentrating your focus on that product does help you to ultimately get things down well. That is what I did with Pinnacle so many years ago and I had great knowledge and success with that program until I felt I had outgrown a coupdle of areas in it.
But I also agree with the free trials in that there have been times when I learned from the free tials that a particular product was not for me due to a lack in a particular area that was important to me or that there were glitches that came to light that had yet been addressed by the company. Case in point was one company whose product had a bug that adversely affected the video in an AVCHD DVD. I have also learned from the free trials which NLEs produced the best video and sound; some could produce a fuller sound, or more robust picture than others in AVCHD, while in one particular case, a program did not produce anything in AVCHD, you could only produce a higher level product in BlueRay.
So there is something to be said for both methods.

For Bill, in my use of free tials, I have found that Adobe Premier 10 and 11 did not produce quite as rich a sound on AVCHD DVDs as some of the other NLEs, Could that be just the trial version?

Thanks again to all.

Mike (Railfan)
Railfan is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 11-07-2012, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post

For Bill, in my use of free tials, I have found that Adobe Premier 10 and 11 did not produce quite as rich a sound on AVCHD DVDs as some of the other NLEs, Could that be just the trial version?
Thanks again to all.
Mike (Railfan)
The Adobe trials are supposed to be exactly the same as the paid for version.

Many years ago I got some lessons in sound when we had to catch submarines by listening for them. At the time I was also spending my paycheck on stereos and speakers. When blind testing speakers I could fool my ears with volume. Adjusting the volume a tiny bit will change the richness. What I mean by tiny, is you don't do it enough the hear a volume change. In other words, just a fraction of a decibel.

That said, digital audio is bits and bytes and Adobe makes some amazing audio products. They include some of their stuff in their NLEs. In Premier Elements 10, I counted 23 separate audio effects that can be applied to 99 sound tracks. Effects range from high and low pass filters to separate bass, treble and volume. There is even a "de-noiser". Most of the effects have sliders for control. There is an audio mixer and audio meters.

If you scroll down and past the video effects the audio effects are listed here: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/WS4B8135DA-083C-42eb-B09E-65070ECBC889.html#WSF8CBE888-6702-4f8b-A85E-71B4B1531883

And a video from video2brain that covers the basics, but does not include the two dozen optional effects: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-elements-11/audio-mixing/

PrE version 11 is on my other computer so I haven't checked if there is any new audio controls.

I'll bet a beer, or at least a coke, on richness differences being more of an issue with settings than product flexibility.

Which NLE did you find had sound that you liked the best.
bsprague is online now  
post #17 of 28 Old 11-07-2012, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,841
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I'll try to answer regarding Vegas, because this is what I use.

1) Be able to capture AVCHD and produce an AVCHD DVD.

Without going into different ways of "capturing" AVCHD files ("capturing" usually means acquiring video being played at realtime speed) I can say that Vegas has no problems with whatever AVCHD flavors I threw into it. Project settings are easily customizable for whichever frame size, field order and frame rate you may have. Vegas can write out a simple menu-less AVCHD disc, but I prefer using MultiAVCHD for authoring BDs and AVCHD discs.

2) Easy and intuitive trimming of video clips on the timeline, as well as manuvering video clips within the timeline with ease.

It is all simple and easy. The feature that I miss is setting a mark on a clip, not on timeline. Vegas can set marks on timeline only, so if you moved a clip, it would move out of mark. Sometimes when I am trying to arrange several clips this just drives me nuts.

3) Some good post production tools for adjusting video color, saturation, adusting other video properties like white balance, etc.

Vegas Pro has very important vectorscope and level display, which cheaper versions lack. All versions have basic color corrector, but I believe only the Pro version has secondary color corrector. There are levels and curves. You can do a lot with Vegas, but these are rather basic tools, so you need to know what you are doing, and it may take some time. If you want easy to use automatic effects, then I guess Vegas is not the best tool. I've heard a lot about After Effects, I have not used it, it cannot be used with Vegas but can be used with FCP and I think with Premiere.

4) I good cropping tool and some kind of stabiliazing of shaky video.

It has that. For example, you can create panning in post by cropping and moving the subframe within the original frame. Stabilizer does work, it has correction for CMOS artefacts, but I think it actually does not stabilize CMOS images well enough, they may looks worse than without stabilization. Stabilized CCD images look great.

5) Be able to combine video clips from an AVCHD camcorder and an HDV camcorder and produce a nice clear program as an AVCHD DVD, or as a standard DVD.

Absolutely no problem. Throw different formats onto timeline, Vegas can natively process DV, HDV, AVCHD, DVCPROHD, XDCAM EX, whole bunch of other formats. It will convert frame rate and frame size for you, but you have control on how this is done. I think Vegas is great for editing multiformat stuff.

6) A few decent, conservative transistions between clips, and some nice menus.

I usuall use a simple fader or a flash. There are some other ones, but I don't care much for transitions. Vegas is not an authoring program, so I don't think it can create menus. It can put text on top of the video though. For authoring Sony offers DVD Architect.

7) A nice, selection of music (more than just a few) (free if possible).

I don't recall Vegas coming with a music pack.

8) Be able to produce a AVCHD video program on DVD that has a very good picture and great sound. I have found a range of sound qualities in different NLEs that range from OK to wonderful. I shoot trains and when I want to watch them on my Plasma and Home Theater setup, I want my neighbors to feel the sound of those engines, even when I don't turn the sound up too much.

This, obviously, depends on rendering codecs. Mainconcept MPEG-2 codec is not very good, but Mainconcept AVC and Sony AVC produce nice picture. I don't know whether you need a Pro version to get higher than 128 Kbit/s for AC3 audio. Until recently Vegas had issues ingesting 5.1 sound, I don't know how things are in this department now. I use old-fasioned stereo.

9) Oh yes, the NLE should have some tools for working with the audio also.

Sure there are basic tools like changing levels, five-band equalizer, some effects. Sound is linked to video by default, but you can unlink them and move audio and video around separately.

10) When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams.

No problem, set the project to 60p and deinterlacing to "interpolate".

Download a trial version from sonystyle and try for yourself. The app look very businesslike, not some other consumer-oriented apps. They screwed up some dialogs in version 11, these dialogs are harder to use now, but the old functionality is still there.
Ungermann is online now  
post #18 of 28 Old 11-07-2012, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
"I don't recall Vegas coming with a music pack."

The cheap, home version does. I tried the home version of Vegas about a year ago and it got tangled up in my computer and would not run. It was a legal, purchased copy but tangled up somehow in the Windows registry with permissions. I could get it fixed, so gave up on it.

I did keep and do use the music files that came with it.

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #19 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I'll try to answer regarding Vegas, because this is what I use.
1) Be able to capture AVCHD and produce an AVCHD DVD.
Without going into different ways of "capturing" AVCHD files ("capturing" usually means acquiring video being played at realtime speed) I can say that Vegas has no problems with whatever AVCHD flavors I threw into it. Project settings are easily customizable for whichever frame size, field order and frame rate you may have. Vegas can write out a simple menu-less AVCHD disc, but I prefer using MultiAVCHD for authoring BDs and AVCHD discs.
2) Easy and intuitive trimming of video clips on the timeline, as well as manuvering video clips within the timeline with ease.
It is all simple and easy. The feature that I miss is setting a mark on a clip, not on timeline. Vegas can set marks on timeline only, so if you moved a clip, it would move out of mark. Sometimes when I am trying to arrange several clips this just drives me nuts.
3) Some good post production tools for adjusting video color, saturation, adusting other video properties like white balance, etc.
Vegas Pro has very important vectorscope and level display, which cheaper versions lack. All versions have basic color corrector, but I believe only the Pro version has secondary color corrector. There are levels and curves. You can do a lot with Vegas, but these are rather basic tools, so you need to know what you are doing, and it may take some time. If you want easy to use automatic effects, then I guess Vegas is not the best tool. I've heard a lot about After Effects, I have not used it, it cannot be used with Vegas but can be used with FCP and I think with Premiere.
4) I good cropping tool and some kind of stabiliazing of shaky video.
It has that. For example, you can create panning in post by cropping and moving the subframe within the original frame. Stabilizer does work, it has correction for CMOS artefacts, but I think it actually does not stabilize CMOS images well enough, they may looks worse than without stabilization. Stabilized CCD images look great.
5) Be able to combine video clips from an AVCHD camcorder and an HDV camcorder and produce a nice clear program as an AVCHD DVD, or as a standard DVD.
Absolutely no problem. Throw different formats onto timeline, Vegas can natively process DV, HDV, AVCHD, DVCPROHD, XDCAM EX, whole bunch of other formats. It will convert frame rate and frame size for you, but you have control on how this is done. I think Vegas is great for editing multiformat stuff.
6) A few decent, conservative transistions between clips, and some nice menus.
I usuall use a simple fader or a flash. There are some other ones, but I don't care much for transitions. Vegas is not an authoring program, so I don't think it can create menus. It can put text on top of the video though. For authoring Sony offers DVD Architect.
7) A nice, selection of music (more than just a few) (free if possible).
I don't recall Vegas coming with a music pack.
8) Be able to produce a AVCHD video program on DVD that has a very good picture and great sound. I have found a range of sound qualities in different NLEs that range from OK to wonderful. I shoot trains and when I want to watch them on my Plasma and Home Theater setup, I want my neighbors to feel the sound of those engines, even when I don't turn the sound up too much.
This, obviously, depends on rendering codecs. Mainconcept MPEG-2 codec is not very good, but Mainconcept AVC and Sony AVC produce nice picture. I don't know whether you need a Pro version to get higher than 128 Kbit/s for AC3 audio. Until recently Vegas had issues ingesting 5.1 sound, I don't know how things are in this department now. I use old-fasioned stereo.
9) Oh yes, the NLE should have some tools for working with the audio also.
Sure there are basic tools like changing levels, five-band equalizer, some effects. Sound is linked to video by default, but you can unlink them and move audio and video around separately.
10) When I get my next camcorder, the GW77 (I hope), the NLE should be able to blend 60p of the new cam, with the 60i from my current cams.
No problem, set the project to 60p and deinterlacing to "interpolate".
Download a trial version from sonystyle and try for yourself. The app look very businesslike, not some other consumer-oriented apps. They screwed up some dialogs in version 11, these dialogs are harder to use now, but the old functionality is still there.

I am assuming that this is for the "expensive" program, not the Sony Movie Studio version.
Railfan is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

The Adobe trials are supposed to be exactly the same as the paid for version.
Many years ago I got some lessons in sound when we had to catch submarines by listening for them. At the time I was also spending my paycheck on stereos and speakers. When blind testing speakers I could fool my ears with volume. Adjusting the volume a tiny bit will change the richness. What I mean by tiny, is you don't do it enough the hear a volume change. In other words, just a fraction of a decibel.
That said, digital audio is bits and bytes and Adobe makes some amazing audio products. They include some of their stuff in their NLEs. In Premier Elements 10, I counted 23 separate audio effects that can be applied to 99 sound tracks. Effects range from high and low pass filters to separate bass, treble and volume. There is even a "de-noiser". Most of the effects have sliders for control. There is an audio mixer and audio meters.
If you scroll down and past the video effects the audio effects are listed here: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/WS4B8135DA-083C-42eb-B09E-65070ECBC889.html#WSF8CBE888-6702-4f8b-A85E-71B4B1531883
And a video from video2brain that covers the basics, but does not include the two dozen optional effects: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-elements-11/audio-mixing/
PrE version 11 is on my other computer so I haven't checked if there is any new audio controls.
I'll bet a beer, or at least a coke, on richness differences being more of an issue with settings than product flexibility.
Which NLE did you find had sound that you liked the best.

Hi Bill.

The NLEs that I found with great sounding audio right out of the box, were Power Director, Avid Studio, Sony Vegas Movie Studio, and Corel Video Studio. From what you have said, I am hoping that I would be able to at least match the quality and fullness of the other NLEs, but it seems like Adobe would be putting themselves at a disadvantage by not making their audio sound better at the default settings.
Railfan is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 11:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,841
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post

I am assuming that this is for the "expensive" program, not the Sony Movie Studio version.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudiopp/compare -- the only major thing that the non-pro versions lacking is video scopes: WFM/Vector/Parade/Histogram. I suggest downloading a trial version and trying for yourself.
Ungermann is online now  
post #22 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 131
I also use Sony Vegas Pro, and moved up from the Home Studio version for some obscure 3D features in Pro. I found that the "Home" version really is full-featured, and, if you ever want to go "Pro", it works basically the same so you are an instant expert (and Pro will digest the Home project files). The same group that is in charge of Sony Vegas also has an excellent audio editor used by many pro's, Sound Forge, and so the audio editing capabilities and quality in the video editor are quite good.

The trial version is full-featured, has no annoying reminders, and you can do a lot of editing in 30 days. Try the Home version to see if you run into any limitations (and then try the Pro version to get 60 days in total!).
markr041 is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I also use Sony Vegas Pro, and moved up from the Home Studio version for some obscure 3D features in Pro. I found that the "Home" version really is full-featured, and, if you ever want to go "Pro", it works basically the same so you are an instant expert (and Pro will digest the Home project files). The same group that is in charge of Sony Vegas also has an excellent audio editor used by many pro's, Sound Forge, and so the audio editing capabilities and quality in the video editor are quite good.
The trial version is full-featured, has no annoying reminders, and you can do a lot of editing in 30 days. Try the Home version to see if you run into any limitations (and then try the Pro version to get 60 days in total!).

Thank you for chiming in, Mark and Ungermann. I did the Sony Movie Studio Plat. 11 free trial last year, and it had no provisions for burning an AVCHD DVD. Is the version 12 different?

Mike
Railfan is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 02:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Actually it is very easy to make an avchd DVD in Vegas (11): you create an iso (image) file on your hard disk as if you were making an avchd bluray (it will do that). Then you just burn the iso file onto a regular dvd with any DVD burning program (assuming the file is not too big to fit). You must also restrict the bitrate to 17Mbps and the file must be 108060i, of course.
markr041 is offline  
post #25 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Actually it is very easy to make an avchd DVD in Vegas (11): you create an iso (image) file on your hard disk as if you were making an avchd bluray (it will do that). Then you just burn the iso file onto a regular dvd with any DVD burning program (assuming the file is not too big to fit). You must also restrict the bitrate to 17Mbps and the file must be 108060i, of course.

Thanks Mark. Since I had just tried version 12 just a couple of months ago, I would imagine that I will have to wait a bit before I can try the free trial again. Then I will take a try at it.

Mike (railfan)
Railfan is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Bill. How do you crop a video image with Adobe Premier Elements 11?
Railfan is offline  
post #27 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 05:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post

Bill. How do you crop a video image with Adobe Premier Elements 11?
You do what Adobe calls "apply an effect". This one is called "Crop". It allows you to adjust it a couple different ways and behaves differently when you click a "Zoom" button on and off. I've tried it, but not used it on a real project.

FWIW, the burning of AVCHD disks on DVD is built in.

Also FWIW, I am not trying to make a contest over who has the best editor. I bought Vegas Movie Studio last year on a great sale price at Fry's. I worked with it for several weeks and liked it a lot. One day it quit. It would not even open. I spent several days trying things, reading forums, re-installing and trying to contact Sony. Sony finally responded in about 30 days. They told me to uninstall, create a new user name and reinstall. It was too late. I had given it to a friend who got it to work fine and I had started down the Adobe path.

The other thing I like about Adobe is personal. I have a friend about half my age that works there. The first time I met him he was in diapers. He is the son of some close, long time friends. On our last camping trip he had to get on the phone to help solve some network's audio problem.

Bill
bsprague is online now  
post #28 of 28 Old 11-08-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: northern lower peninsula Michigan
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thanks Bill. I will give it a try and if I still have trouble I will contact you.

Mike
Railfan is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off