Smart Rendering that Works with All AVCHD Camcorders: TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 4 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 01-21-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I had used an old version of Tmpgenc in the days before HD, and this new version was recommended by a pro friend. I had never encountered VideoRedo; seems like a viable alternative.
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post #32 of 51 Old 02-19-2013, 04:11 PM
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I have been using Power Director 11 Ultra for a number of months now and am very pleased with the results. I edit AVCHD2 60P and it is the only reasonable editing software (of 8 tested) that will smart render AND use a sd proxy during the editing process. It runs 64bitt.
However burning the edited 60P stream to a BR blank requires external software.

Eugene
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post #33 of 51 Old 02-23-2013, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I think that "smart rendering" is an incorrect name. It is basically "dumb copying" paired with "traditional rendering" for unclosed GOPs. It should be almost as fast as a disk drive allows. The only "smart" thing about it is figuring out when to render and when to copy as is.

I'll have to disagree, because if it's 'dumb copying' why almost no other software is capable of doing it? There is certainly no shortage of video editing tools out there. VideoRedo comes close but nothing compares to this when it comes to smart rendering and ease of use. The transitions are a great bonus.
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post #34 of 51 Old 02-23-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Laserdisc View Post

...... if it's 'dumb copying' why almost no other software is capable of doing it?.......

I've wondered the same thing.

I use three NLEs, Sony's PlayMemories Home, Panasonic's HDWriter and Adobe's Premier Elements. I've also used Sony's Movie Studio and Windows Movie Maker. The first two can do lossless editing. The rest can't.

I think there may be three reasons most NLEs don't include lossless (smart or dumb) rendering.

First, most people don't want it, except for very small group of "purests" that get their video watching pleasure in seeing perfect 1080p60 footage. When I use my two lossless NLEs, I have to make extra effort to watch it! It is fun, but I have to find a way to play it. I have to put it on some sort of specialty device to get it to the TV. Most people don't want to go through the special steps or own the devices.

Second, the common viewing methods of DVD players, Blu-Ray players, computer screens, tablets and smartphones have to have the 1080p60 footage translated somehow. Throw in YouTube and Vimeo as delivery circuits and it gets worse. Trying to reach even the smallest audience with lossless footage is impossible.

Third is the creative process. Editing is not lossless. It is additive. In the process of turning footage into a video, or movie, the person editing adds creativity in the form of titles, transitions, audio effects, video effects, color adjustments, etc. The combined additions improve the video. It is not just video editing. With all digital graphic arts, the post processing is as important as the capturing. In one fascinating forum elsewhere, a member posts an unretouched "lossless" photo. Other members go to work on it, and a day or so later, they post what they were able to accomplish and explain how. Last week I saw a pretty good portrait of a young girl turn into a dozen versions of a extraordinarily beautiful woman. Watch any hollywood movie twice. Enjoy the story the first time. The second time, watch it for post processing editing techniques.

I recently completed an arduous 70 minute family reunion and history documentary. The reality is that to share it with the family members in four states, it has to end up as a DVD and Blu-Ray. A lossless NLE was useless. To get the primary star remotely interesting required a lot of additive editing followed by rendering or transcoding to practical media.

Lossless editing, except for certain minor exceptions, is practically useless. Creative, or "additive" editing is difficult to learn. It is a bigger challenge than gluing clips together that play like a slide show with motion.

Bill
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post #35 of 51 Old 02-23-2013, 03:44 PM
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You are right about creative editing, but I don't think Smart Renderer is meant to be used professionally. Where I do find it extremely useful, is for cutting/joining my home videos, possibly with some transitions, and then passing over the untouched output to excellent free encoding tools, like MeGUI/x264. Their highly configurable output can easily outperform ultra-expensive, sluggish editing applications. Sure, for more advanced editing other software is required.
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post #36 of 51 Old 03-11-2013, 02:34 PM
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I am using Power Director 11 and it does smart render AVCHD and AVCHD2 as H.264. It also SMs MPEG-2, MPEG-1 and DV-AVI. AFASIK it is the only software that does.

Usually I record from a Panasonic HC-X900M at 60P 1080 and there is no problem smart rendering to a same format video file.

Transitions, titles are of course rendered. Made several hour long videos burning to 60P 1080 BR using Roxio. PD11 will not burn 60P, it makes files only.

Very stable program. Try the free trial download.

Did use Pinnacle for about 15 years. The new X900M has such great video that any re-encoding is visible so I went from Pinnacle 15 and 16 to PD11. Great decision.
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post #37 of 51 Old 03-13-2013, 08:47 PM
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Eugene157, can you please clarify, is it kind of Roxio Creator NXT Pro?
Are you using mts files from PD11 and authoring with Roxio and after burning to DVD-R type of media as AVCHD,
what is your authoring and burning process with Roxio?

So far I was be able (thanks to markr041 for pointing to this) author and burn mts files with TMPGEnc Smart Renderer 4 as BDAV.
This is the only one methode available to burn 1080 60p to DVD media.
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post #38 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:08 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #39 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:09 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #40 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:09 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #41 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:10 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #42 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:10 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #43 of 51 Old 04-08-2013, 04:10 PM
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If people want to smart render all the way to Blu-ray, you can use free authoring program called multiavchd. It will author bluray disk without rendering. If your smart rendered file is bigger than 4gig then you have to append several 4 gig files into one using 'file append and split tool'.

I use Panasonic tm900 and hdwriter 4.0. New 4.0 is much better than old 3.0.
Previously I used tsmuxer to create bluray disk but multiavchd can able have several separate videos that you can select from the bluray menu page.

I use it to create my Airshow Blu-rays that is around 2hrs long. You can find samples here;
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsXXK56bg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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post #44 of 51 Old 03-20-2014, 01:46 PM
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I bought this program today and created and burned some great looking BDAV BD-R discs in 1080/50p from my AVCHD 1080/50p 28 Mbps files. The problem is that there seems to be a limit of 200 clips in one project so I could only fill 4Gb (23 minutes) on a 25Gb disc. Surely there must be a way to fill the disc with more clips? I hope someone knows how...
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post #45 of 51 Old 03-20-2014, 04:49 PM
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I see it's a limit imposed by the program itself, not a bug. Contact them directly through their support site, asking them to remove or increase the limit. Your only way around this is to output your first 200 clips, then re-import that output as a single clip in your project.
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post #46 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 07:38 AM
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Thanks. I have not tried that yet. TMPGEnc is faster and easier than Power Director 11 to join clips from a folder. I see no difference in quality. PD outputs the file as AVCHD m2ts. TMPGEnc outputs as MPEG 2 ts when I choose the AVCHD progressive option. The bitrate seems to be the same though. Is any of those better in theory?
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post #47 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixbe View Post

Thanks. I have not tried that yet. TMPGEnc is faster and easier than Power Director 11 to join clips from a folder. I see no difference in quality. PD outputs the file as AVCHD m2ts. TMPGEnc outputs as MPEG 2 ts when I choose the AVCHD progressive option. The bitrate seems to be the same though. Is any of those better in theory?

AVCHD and MPEG-2 are different formats so converting from one to another will definitively re-encode the whole thing. SR4 does not do this, unless you add different format clips. Maybe one of the two programs (the Cyberlink one probably...) labels the files wrongly.
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post #48 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 08:25 AM
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SR4 says it outputs in MPEG4 but my pc and my Dune mediaplayer name the resulting files as MPEG2 ts. The clips that I put in the SR4 are all AVCHD progressive from my Canon Data Import Utility......Odd, eh..
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post #49 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 11:58 AM
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Hi

Smart rendering is problematic especially with H264 unless very simple edits are being made, even then the edits may be noticeable.

Example, two clips with a dissolve of 1 second. Smart rendering means you have 1 second of newly encoded video inserted with a dissolve that is pretty demanding to encode with no run up or run off for the encoder to gain any benefit from redundancy of picture information or being able to use the video buffer to allow an extra burst of data rate, this means you get a clip of 1 second encoded at pretty constrained bit-rates and it is second generation and not a very well encoded second generation. I found these sorts of edits were very noticeable, dip in quality on the way in, then back to normal after the transition. At the time VideoStudio that I was using with SmartRendering introduced glitches of repeated frames when it felt like it, which I'm not sure they ever fixed, another trial saw an issue with the colour space conversation during the re-encode so there was a shift in the colours during the re-encoded segments. It all looked horribly amateurish.

It was never a pleasant experience smart rendering.

So now my workflow is to output as lossless via the Lagarith codec, so everything goes through a decode, but no loss in the output as it is uncompressed, then compress that using X264 and high quality settings with 2 pass VBR at a nice high Blu-ray bit-rate. Result is visually lossless output from the original files, and perfect transitions and edits, and I might as well colour correct everything at the same time.

Regards

Phil
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post #50 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 03:37 PM
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Videostudio is not a well developed program. The encoder part of it has seen basically no development at all since Corel acquired the program from Ulead many years ago. I don't think you can compare the smart rendering in that program with something such as the TMPGenc software, which presumably is still actively being developed. You certainly cannot make conclusions based on that.

My understanding is that the TMPGenc uses modern updated versions of H.264 encoders.
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post #51 of 51 Old 03-22-2014, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

Videostudio is not a well developed program. The encoder part of it has seen basically no development at all since Corel acquired the program from Ulead many years ago. I don't think you can compare the smart rendering in that program with something such as the TMPGenc software, which presumably is still actively being developed. You certainly cannot make conclusions based on that.

My understanding is that the TMPGenc uses modern updated versions of H.264 encoders.

This is correct. AFAIK, TMPGenc is the only software to do smart rendering of h264 correctly. I use it for all of my videos, except those based on RAW (BMPCC).
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