Best camcorder to shoot 1080P30, but NOT in AVCHD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking for a mid-level camcorder that will shoot in something other than AVCHD, but not at the expense of giving up quality or continuous recording time.

I absolutely HATE the AVCHD format. I'm sort of under the gun here to get a couple of cameras for an upcoming project. So I'm not super interested in debating how god-aweful the avchd video format is in this thread or what the merits of it are. What I'm looking for is a camera that will record in an alternative format, even if the main format the camera touts is AVCHD. It can be either a video camera or a photo camera that shoots video.

Here are the requirements:

1. First, it has to shoot in something other than AVCHD. Something where there is a single video file (.mov or .mp4...) that is already in a usable format. It can be an AVCHD camera that also shoots in a different mode. But when shooting to that other recording format all these other requirements must still be met. Often these are met when shooting in AVCHD but not when you flip it to .mp4 or iFrame or whatever they call it.

2. We need to be able to shoot continuous for hours. I know that there is usually a 4gig limit. That's fine as long as it can continue and keep recording to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.. file without dropping frames in between. This requirement knocks out a batch of cameras that just STOP after they hit that 4 gig limit. Like my Canon D60. Sucks!

3. 1080P30. NOT PF! Not progressive encoded in fields. Why? Because we don't want to have to convert the footage before using it. The frame size should be a real progressive 1920x1080 and shooting at 30fps.

4. 1920x1080. A lot of AVCHD cameras will shoot in an mp4 mode. But for some reason in that mode the frame size is something else. It's either 720p or it's 960xwhatever. Must still be 1920x1080 when in this other mode.

5. Bit Rate.. well.. I'd like a decent bit rate even in mp4 (or whatever). This is another area where cameras suddenly drop in quality when switching out of avchd.


That's the camera we're looking for. I know that the blackmagic camera shoots in proRes. Yeah that would be awesome... but that's not a mid-level camera. We're looking in the under $500 range. But not all the way down to shooting on an iPhone. Something with some glass would be nice.


Note.. I know I might be opening up to a bunch of flame and trolls with my avchd comments, but this is a legit question. Thanks!
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

I'm looking for a mid-level camcorder that will shoot in something other than AVCHD, but not at the expense of giving up quality or continuous recording time.

I absolutely HATE the AVCHD format. I'm sort of under the gun here to get a couple of cameras for an upcoming project. So I'm not super interested in debating how god-aweful the avchd video format is in this thread or what the merits of it are. What I'm looking for is a camera that will record in an alternative format, even if the main format the camera touts is AVCHD. It can be either a video camera or a photo camera that shoots video.

Here are the requirements:

1. First, it has to shoot in something other than AVCHD. Something where there is a single video file (.mov or .mp4...) that is already in a usable format. It can be an AVCHD camera that also shoots in a different mode. But when shooting to that other recording format all these other requirements must still be met. Often these are met when shooting in AVCHD but not when you flip it to .mp4 or iFrame or whatever they call it.

2. We need to be able to shoot continuous for hours. I know that there is usually a 4gig limit. That's fine as long as it can continue and keep recording to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.. file without dropping frames in between. This requirement knocks out a batch of cameras that just STOP after they hit that 4 gig limit. Like my Canon D60. Sucks!

3. 1080P30. NOT PF! Not progressive encoded in fields. Why? Because we don't want to have to convert the footage before using it. The frame size should be a real progressive 1920x1080 and shooting at 30fps.

4. 1920x1080. A lot of AVCHD cameras will shoot in an mp4 mode. But for some reason in that mode the frame size is something else. It's either 720p or it's 960xwhatever. Must still be 1920x1080 when in this other mode.

5. Bit Rate.. well.. I'd like a decent bit rate even in mp4 (or whatever). This is another area where cameras suddenly drop in quality when switching out of avchd.


That's the camera we're looking for. I know that the blackmagic camera shoots in proRes. Yeah that would be awesome... but that's not a mid-level camera. We're looking in the under $500 range. But not all the way down to shooting on an iPhone. Something with some glass would be nice.


Note.. I know I might be opening up to a bunch of flame and trolls with my avchd comments, but this is a legit question. Thanks!

All the things you want are going to be impossibe IMO,i will be interested if there is such a cam or camera,i hope its not an early aprils fools joke.
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a camera that does 4 out of the 5..? Or 3?

Or are we stuck with a lengthy import process and the crappy disconnect between data and metadata in avchd?
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 06:19 AM
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GH2 with MJPEG hack ?
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 07:37 AM
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I read this at dPreview this morning: "Panasonic has posted the promised firmware updates for its movie-focused Lumix DMC-GH3 mirrorless camera.........The GH3 update adds the ability to shoot 1080p60 footage in MP4 format......" Maybe 30p too?

Bill
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 07:59 AM
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Hi Michael - I agree with you about AVCHD. I hate editing it. But I don't think you're going to be able to get what you want for under $500. I need unlimited video clip length too and was also looking to get away from AVCHD, but the least expensive option I could find was the $1298 Panasonic GH3 (plus lenses).

The GH3 shoots 1080/30p .MOV at 50mbps IPB or 72mbps All Intra and can record uninterrupted for hours. See specs here.

Would it be possible to sell the 60D for the extra money? The GH3 is a pretty darned good still camera too.

The other (relatively inexpensive) cameras with the ability to shoot .MOV for hours at 1080/30p are the JVC GY-HM100 and HM150 camcorders. HM150 specs are here.

A new HM150 is $1995 at Amazon. The HM100 is discontinued, but you can get one used on eBay for $1599.

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your project!

Bill
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post #7 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

I absolutely HATE the AVCHD format.

1. First, it has to shoot in something other than AVCHD. Something where there is a single video file (.mov or .mp4...) that is already in a usable format.

Could you at least say what happens when you use AVCHD/mts files?
What are your specifications on your computer; OS/RAM/processor? What editing software are you using, if any. It's just a file and should play as any other media file.

For me; I shoot video, put card in card reader, copy and paste the mts files from the card's Stream folder to PC. That's it.

If I double-click on an mts file it plays in Windows Media Player (Windows 7) without issue. No difference when clicking another compatible video format. If I play them in Sony Vegas (editor), similarly no issues and edit smoothly. Even 100mbps files from a GH2 play just the same/no stuttering or crashes.

If I record an event and the files "span"/record and broken up into 4gb chunks - I stitch together in Sony Vegas from the card reader (can also be done in Freeware tsmuxer).

I'm using a low spec computer; AMD quad core 2.2ghz/3 GB RAM/Windows 7.
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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@brunerww - Bill, I think I want the GH3 for my own use. I will sell the D60 soon to buy either a GH3 or some other similar camera. Unfortunately for this project that's out of our price range. We could go a little more than 500 each.

@xfws - I don't really want to go in to it. The short version is that I hate the idea of it. The mts files, the bluray format. This isn't a good acquisition / archival file format. My wife is smart, but she can't just copy the contents off into a folder without the worry that a file will be missing and the footage unusable. It's a crappy format and I refuse to use it for things I shoot. The promise of digital was that we didn't have to capture the footage and could use it right away, but if there is a lengthy importing/converting process it's moot. Might as well use tape. No.. shooting video and pulling it to a computer should be just like pulling .JPG files off a memory stick. But to answer your other question, we're on mac. We use FCPX or FCP7.

Like I said.. we could maybe push it to 600 each. What about if the bit rate was lower but the frame size was still 1920. I don't need 50mps. 15mps would be ok. I don't want a 'bloggie' camera though.

-michael
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

.... The short version is that I hate the idea of it. The mts files, the bluray format. This isn't a good acquisition / archival file format. My wife is smart, but she can't just copy the contents off into a folder without the worry that a file will be missing and the footage unusable. It's a crappy format and I refuse to use it for things I shoot. The promise of digital was that we didn't have to capture the footage and could use it right away, but if there is a lengthy importing/converting process it's moot. Might as well use tape. No.. shooting video and pulling it to a computer should be just like pulling .JPG files off a memory stick. But to answer your other question, we're on mac. We use FCPX or FCP7.

-michael

Someone has given you incomplete information, old experiences or bad advice.

The "promise of digital" is fine with AVCHD. The only files that count are the ones that end in .m2ts or .mts. Cameras may have special feature that use some extra files that are created, but once out of the camera they are needed for nothing. I can shoot a few clips, pull the card, copy the files, make backups to an external drive and be editing in a couple minutes. I could be making a AVCHD based video for YouTube in the time it takes me to type this response!

.m2ts files are just as digital as .mp4 files. They archive the same.

Simple file copy programs that come with the cameras move the .m2ts files to the computer from either the camera or the SD card. On a PC, Windows Explorer does it just as well. I forget what the copy program is called on a Mac. Once on the computer HDD the .m2ts or .mts files are available for anything from simple playback to complicated editing. Granted, the folder structure on the SD card is related to Blu-Ray, but the copy process puts the video clips into any folder you want.

If your wife is knows to look for .mp4, she can find .m2ts. It really is just like moving .jpgs off a memory stick, except in my case is is the more universal and cheap SD card. I do it all the time.

Even Apple says Final Cut Pro now is OK with AVCHD: http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0.6/#ver2833f855

Adobe in both consumer and pro versions of Premier are OK with AVCHD. Same with Sony. Even Windows Movie Maker! I was in an Apple store shopping before I bought a PC. The wizard sales guy took my .m2ts clips and made a movie with a hollywood style theme on a Mac Book Pro I chose not to afford. If you have older software of any brand or source, it may true there is an issue. But any current version of editing software will take the .mt2s clips from most any common camera.

If you have any specific issues with AVCHD, there may be people here that can help.

Good luck with your project.

Bill
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Right.. my experience was that if the mts files were separated from the rest of the meta data they were unusable. Yes it was a few years ago, but I've had footage come back from a shoot, had the field guys pull files off the camera and have lost shoot days because nothing recognized the footage. And yes, it's also their fault. But I was always the technical editor who had to just make it work. It shouldn't be that easy to lose the use of footage. From an archival standpoint it really sucks too. Even now the folder that all the data is in is called "PRIVATE" - so that's not very user friendly from an aspect of just grabbing the files and erasing the stick to use for the next day's shoot. Maybe it's better now on some cameras with regard to losing footage. But then there's also the 30PF to deal with instead of just straight 30P. FCP can deal with AVCHD of course, but I don't want to need FCP to view and import clips. I'm just not a fan. I'm the guy who notices every field issue on tv. I guess I'm just old school. These 1080P clips from both the Canon camera we just got and the JVC needed to be processed in FCP to decode the progressive frames out of the fields. It was recording at 60i with the 30P split out in to fields. And we don't want to have to do that each night for 8 or more hours of footage times two cameras. Or worse, wait and have to do it later. It's all great when you're shooting tiny clips, but when you've got a lot of footage to process - 2 hour clips each - it sucks. If it's the only option we'll just have to deal with it. But I believe that it sucks as a format and I'd rather not use it. If it's so great why would panasonic even need to promise that they'll fix it and why would there be a hack to get around it? Because it s-u-c-k-s. eek.gif

But I didn't want to debate that in this thread. Rather was looking for what options are out there for me now. Thanks for the info about the gh3. I'm going to look for other still cameras that shoot video. For this I'm not looking for the best overall quality on this project. The GH3 is a nice camera. I've been wanting one for a while,, but it won't work for this. But maybe a small fix lens still camera that shoots video might work good. I was also thinking about the Nikon 1.

Thanks for all the advice so far. Sorry if I'm grumpy about AVCHD. smile.gif
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post #11 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 07:32 PM
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Mr. Smith, you should listen to Bill. It is obvious you have little experience with AVCHD and especially with 108060p (easy to get real 30p from that too), and have formed strong and uninformed opinions. You should try these new technologies, and the latest edition of software and you should try to learn something, as we all have done here. You should not be shooting 108060i if you want progressive (that seems, well, silly), and you do not have to with most camcorders or even fixed-lens cameras now except Canon ones.

If you are interested in a small fixed lens camera for video, the *informed* consensus here is to look at the Sony RX100 and the Panasonic LX7. Read the threads on those, view the videos, ask questions about them, and put aside your prejudices based on out-of-date experience. If you do that you will learn a lot from all of us.
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-30-2013, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

The frame size should be a real progressive 1920x1080 and shooting at 30fps.
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post #13 of 26 Old 03-31-2013, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

Right.. my experience was that if the mts files were separated from the rest of the meta data they were unusable...... have lost shoot days because nothing recognized the footage. ..... From an archival standpoint it really sucks too. Even now the folder that all the data is in is called "PRIVATE" - so that's not very user friendly...... If it's the only option we'll just have to deal with it. But I believe that it sucks as a format and I'd rather not use it......

But I didn't want to debate that in this thread. Rather was looking for what options are out there for me now. ..... Sorry if I'm grumpy about AVCHD. smile.gif

Thanks for posting an explanation. I got so mad at my cable TV company in about 1980 that I made sure they never got another penny from me. Now I'm having an issue with DirecTV and they are about to get their last penny too.

Part of what makes AVCHD so easy for me is the PC only software that came with my Sony and Panasonic cameras. They read the SD card and place the files in an orderly catalog organized by date on my computer. I almost bought a Mac Book Pro for video editing, but decided the mainstream for me was not in the Apple world.

It is unfortunate, but it seems to me that since Sony won the high definition video player war, the entire arena of video equipment available was effected. While the majority of both the suppliers and customers are focused on Blu-Ray, 1080p60, AVCHD, etc, you are in need of increasingly rare products.

Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. You should be able to find what you want. You shouldn't have to be forced to use patents held by Sony and Panasonic.

If you are still following the topic Michael, would you mind telling us what your project is?

Good luck....
Bill
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post #14 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bill. In research I was reading some other threads on other forums and when people would ask questions about continuous recording time the general response was "why do you need to do that?" I want to crawl through the monitor and punch them in the throat. WHY? Doesn't matter why.. it's a valid question without the explanation. You know? I can think of lots of valid examples of why someone would want that. I can think of more why someone wouldn't want the camera to just STOP with no warning after 10 or 15 minutes. My freaking D60.. I was shooting a training video all by myself.. of me talking to the camera... kept shutting off after 10 minutes. Sucks! Lose my momentum, have a set place I have to edit in something.. sucks.

I also love the assumption that I'm inexperienced - because I'm asking for something that isn't easy to find. I won't get in to my credentials but I'm far from inexperienced. True that a few bad experiences made me initially hate the format, but those aren't the only reasons I hate it. AVCHD doesn't recognize 1080P as a standard format. In general AVCHD only records in 60i. And some manufacturers have tricked it to do the progressive recording as 60i... either with a 2-3 pulldown or using a FP or PS mode. But usually even when you think you're recording in progressive you're really storing it on the stick in 60i. And that's a PITA for editing. If you disagree that's cool.. go do what you want and we'll just agree to disagree. And I'll choose to record in a better format. But you don't see higher end cameras using AVCHD and screwing around with tricks to store the footage. Not Red. Not Blackmagic. Those cameras exist because there was a need for them in the industry. We've bought several different cameras this week trying to find a good match. Set the recording mode to AVCHD 30P..importing the clips in to FCPX and the timeline is 60i.. because the clips really are 60i. yes there is MAYBE a theoretical way to decode the video to what I want.. but we are shooting 2 hour clips on 2 cameras at a time. So it's not something we want to do. Rendering a 2 hr timeline in FCPX isn't something we want to do. And yes there is a 2.0 spec update for AVCHD-Progressive but most cameras don't utilize it yet. So this is why I asked help to find exactly what I'm looking for.

And guess what... WE FOUND IT!

Canon VIXA HF R40, R42. It will shoot in AVCHD or MP4 mode, and the MP4 mode will span across multiple files for continuous recording, in full 1920x1080P 30fps, at high bit rates (35 or 24mps). We've read the manual from to back and it looks like it will do it all. It specifically mentions that the mp4 clips will be in multiple files if you exceed 4 gigs or 30 minutes. And that there will be a slight gap if you record more than 12 hours in a single clip.

We're picking up the cameras tomorrow and we'll verify it. If you don't hear back from we we're golden.
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post #15 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 03:21 AM
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Glad to hear that you seem to have found what you're looking for, Michael. I agree with you that it is sometimes a challenge to get past the noise on the fora. This can be especially frustrating when dealing with the continuous clip length issue. It shouldn't be that difficult to explain one's need for a camera that shoots more than 12 minutes at a time, but, for some reason, it is.

But there are good people out there too, who are willing to help without giving you too much static smile.gif

Hopefully, you have found a few of those here.

Best,

Bill B. (the other Bill)
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post #16 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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This is the noise: "I also love the assumption that I'm inexperienced - because I'm asking for something that isn't easy to find. I won't get in to my credentials but I'm far from inexperienced. True that a few bad experiences made me initially hate the format, but those aren't the only reasons I hate it. AVCHD doesn't recognize 1080P as a standard format. In general AVCHD only records in 60i.

There is AVCHD 2.0. It "recognizes" 108060p as a standard format as do many Blu ray players and editors. And most camcorders, including pro ones, shoot 108060p, and many cameras (Canon is the major exception). It is your demonstrated (by your own statements) inexperience with AVCHD that is the issue, as well as inexperience with many editors used on Windows machines. I am happy to that you are happy.
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post #17 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelsmith View Post

Thanks Bill. In research I was reading some other threads on other forums and when people would ask questions about continuous recording time the general response was "why do you need to do that?" I want to crawl through the monitor and punch them in the throat. WHY? Doesn't matter why.. it's a valid question without the explanation. You know? I can think of lots of valid examples of why someone would want that. I can think of more why someone wouldn't want the camera to just STOP with no warning after 10 or 15 minutes. My freaking D60.. I was shooting a training video all by myself.. of me talking to the camera... kept shutting off after 10 minutes. Sucks! Lose my momentum, have a set place I have to edit in something.. sucks.

I also love the assumption that I'm inexperienced - because I'm asking for something that isn't easy to find. I won't get in to my credentials but I'm far from inexperienced. True that a few bad experiences made me initially hate the format, but those aren't the only reasons I hate it. AVCHD doesn't recognize 1080P as a standard format. In general AVCHD only records in 60i. And some manufacturers have tricked it to do the progressive recording as 60i... either with a 2-3 pulldown or using a FP or PS mode. But usually even when you think you're recording in progressive you're really storing it on the stick in 60i. And that's a PITA for editing. If you disagree that's cool.. go do what you want and we'll just agree to disagree. And I'll choose to record in a better format. But you don't see higher end cameras using AVCHD and screwing around with tricks to store the footage. Not Red. Not Blackmagic. Those cameras exist because there was a need for them in the industry. We've bought several different cameras this week trying to find a good match. Set the recording mode to AVCHD 30P..importing the clips in to FCPX and the timeline is 60i.. because the clips really are 60i. yes there is MAYBE a theoretical way to decode the video to what I want.. but we are shooting 2 hour clips on 2 cameras at a time. So it's not something we want to do. Rendering a 2 hr timeline in FCPX isn't something we want to do. And yes there is a 2.0 spec update for AVCHD-Progressive but most cameras don't utilize it yet. So this is why I asked help to find exactly what I'm looking for.

And guess what... WE FOUND IT!

Canon VIXA HF R40, R42. It will shoot in AVCHD or MP4 mode, and the MP4 mode will span across multiple files for continuous recording, in full 1920x1080P 30fps, at high bit rates (35 or 24mps). We've read the manual from to back and it looks like it will do it all. It specifically mentions that the mp4 clips will be in multiple files if you exceed 4 gigs or 30 minutes. And that there will be a slight gap if you record more than 12 hours in a single clip.

We're picking up the cameras tomorrow and we'll verify it. If you don't hear back from we we're golden.
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post #18 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 06:53 PM
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Mark, I am with you. 4GB AVCHD segments are not good enough, but 4GB MP4 segments are. Whatever. Not that I am defending AVCHD format. I hope that with SDXC becoming the norm they will amend AVCHD to allow longer segments.

"My wife is smart, but she can't just copy the contents off into a folder without the worry that a file will be missing and the footage unusable." -- If A --> B, and B is false, what it says about A?
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post #19 of 26 Old 04-01-2013, 08:32 PM
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-- If A --> B, and B is false, what it says about A?
That may not be nice! My DW (d*** wife) has put up with me for 45 years. She get lots of technical crap wrong. Her pictures are usually better than mine. If she took up video, I would really look bad.
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post #20 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 05:36 AM
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Amazingly enough, Canon has finally gone to the dark side: its newest compact camera, the SX280 HS, shoots at 108060P (but not AVCHD)! The new processor, however, is still not capable of shooting 120 fps at 720p (like the Panasonics). I guess we have to wait for next year's Canon camcorders to catch up.

here is what their web site blurb says about 108060p :"1080p/60p Full HD video is extraordinarily smooth and rich in playback, ensuring that your important memories and creative film clips look their absolute best."
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post #21 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 08:57 AM
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Amazingly enough, Canon has finally gone to the dark side: its newest compact camera, the SX280 HS, shoots at 108060P (but not AVCHD)!
Canon's digicams never used AVCHD, I guess too much bother with file structure for a pocket "dumb" digicam. Funny, that none of video formats that Canon offers on the SX280 is Blu-ray-legal. But since it is not AVCHD, one will have to edit and re-package anyway. Too bad Canon removed 24p option present on the SX 260. For 24p lovers, it is a good time now to buy the SX 260.
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post #22 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 10:04 AM
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If I get it right, Sony and Panasonic teamed up to create AVCHD, own it and have it trademarked. Like all, or at least most, of the formats, codecs, wrappers, etc every time one is used someone owes someone else a little money. I think even Microsoft get a bit because the patented FAT long name file system is used. So if Canon put a AVCHD label on a camera or it's box, they would have to send a check to Sony and Panasonic.

If your were Canon would you like sending royalty checks to Sony and Panasonic?

I'm sure it keeps some lawyers busy. It also might mean why others like Apple have been a little slow with full support in their NLE's. Does it make sense that Sony Vegas might include AVCHD support a little faster than Adobe did?

I met an Adobe employee at a social event awhile back and asked about the inclusion of 1080p60 in Premier Elements. He said that the maize of codecs and formats creates employment for quite a few people that have to figure out who owes who and when.
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post #23 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 11:33 AM
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If your were Canon would you like sending royalty checks to Sony and Panasonic?
Which is why Canon came up with XF Codec name for MPEG-2 Part 2 video in MXF Op1a container instead of licensing XDCAM HD422 name from Sony. What in a name? When you say "XDCAM HD" people have an idea. When you say "XF Codec" people are "what?" - then you have to explain that it is the same as XDCAM HD, only with a different name.
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I met an Adobe employee at a social event awhile back and asked about the inclusion of 1080p60 in Premier Elements. He said that the maize of codecs and formats creates employment for quite a few people that have to figure out who owes who and when.
There are better tools and worse tools. Vegas has always been flexible with various parameters of different formats. If, say, it supports MPEG-2 Program Stream and MPEG-2 Part2 video encoding, then you can set pretty much any frame size, frame rate, scanning type, GOP size, bitrate and tons of other settings and it will work. Because developers did their job in a general way, they solved the general problem by going through the spec and implementing all the tiny bits and pieces, and now supporting specifics is easy. (First you design a table with any number of legs, then deriving tables with specific number of legs is just substituting "x" with a number in an equation.)

Adobe devs, on the other hand, are lazy. They solve each format on a case by case basic. Want MPEG-2 24p? Wait for a preset. Want AVC 60p? Wait for a preset. They are making problems for themselves and for users, and for that I despise them and their crusty unflexible product. Their attitude is normal in the world of professional video, where people are used to pay for everything without even thinking that they should be getting it for free. Then these pros charge exorbitant money for their movies to recoup their spendings, then you pay $12 for a movie ticket, but who cares.
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post #24 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 03:12 PM
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Which is why Canon came up with XF Codec name for MPEG-2 Part 2 video in MXF Op1a container instead of licensing XDCAM HD422 name from Sony. What in a name? When you say "XDCAM HD" people have an idea. When you say "XF Codec" people are "what?" - then you have to explain that it is the same as XDCAM HD, only with a different name.
There are better tools and worse tools. Vegas has always been flexible with various parameters of different formats. If, say, it supports MPEG-2 Program Stream and MPEG-2 Part2 video encoding, then you can set pretty much any frame size, frame rate, scanning type, GOP size, bitrate and tons of other settings and it will work. Because developers did their job in a general way, they solved the general problem by going through the spec and implementing all the tiny bits and pieces, and now supporting specifics is easy. (First you design a table with any number of legs, then deriving tables with specific number of legs is just substituting "x" with a number in an equation.)

Adobe devs, on the other hand, are lazy. They solve each format on a case by case basic. Want MPEG-2 24p? Wait for a preset. Want AVC 60p? Wait for a preset. They are making problems for themselves and for users, and for that I despise them and their crusty unflexible product. Their attitude is normal in the world of professional video, where people are used to pay for everything without even thinking that they should be getting it for free. Then these pros charge exorbitant money for their movies to recoup their spendings, then you pay $12 for a movie ticket, but who cares.

"Which is why Canon came up with XF Codec name for MPEG-2 Part 2 video in MXF Op1a container instead of licensing XDCAM HD422 name from Sony"

It is embarrassing when I think I know and understand, when it turns out I am such a rank beginner. I don't understand anything in that sentence!

"They solve each format on a case by case basic. Want MPEG-2 24p? Wait for a preset. Want AVC 60p? Wait for a preset. "

I probably don't get that either. But for each output preset there is an "Advanced" button where I can select lots of parameters, including frame rates. Then, as an option, it lets me add to the preset list for a new one with the parameter adjustments. No, I do not understand many of the choices. I measure results based on what it looks like on the TV.

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post #25 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 06:31 PM
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"They solve each format on a case by case basic. Want MPEG-2 24p? Wait for a preset. Want AVC 60p? Wait for a preset. "

I probably don't get that either. But for each output preset there is an "Advanced" button where I can select lots of parameters, including frame rates. Then, as an option, it lets me add to the preset list for a new one with the parameter adjustments. No, I do not understand many of the choices. I measure results based on what it looks like on the TV.
I meant project settings, and it was just an example. Sure, they constantly add formats, but there are too many combinations, why they don't allow setting project the way Vegas does is beyond me. Thanks for output settings screenshot, though! I will tinker with PE a bit more, maybe I am indeed missing something.
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post #26 of 26 Old 04-02-2013, 06:50 PM
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I will tinker with PE a bit more, maybe I am indeed missing something.
Probably not. The only brilliance of PrE is that it is aimed at people like me that don't understand it all. The Adobe PrE customers have new cameras and want to make "home movies". It is good for that.

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