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post #1 of 133 Old 04-07-2013, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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They were the talk of NAB last year with their first-ever camera, the $2995 Blackmagic Cinema Camera - which is now shipping and producing great results (after a few months of delay).

This year, they're announcing two new cameras:

- The "Blackmagic Production Camera" - a $3995 4K camera with a Super 35 sensor, a global shutter to eliminate CMOS skew/jello, and an EF mount - and

- The "Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera" - a $995 ProRes/CinemaDNG RAW camera with a Super 16 sensor, 13 stops of dynamic range and a micro 4/3 mount.

Here's a fuzzy picture of both cameras from the Twitterverse (official announcement is tomorrow): https://twitter.com/michaelkammes/status/321082752566964224/photo/1

This second camera really interests me - RAW video for less than $1000 - and I already have lenses for it. I'm guessing that it won't ship for awhile, so I'll have time to work on convincing my wife that I need one smile.gif

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
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post #2 of 133 Old 04-07-2013, 10:25 PM
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All I can say is Holy S***! on a 4K version for a 4K price tag (I just read that it might actually be $3,395) and global shutter. Yes, a Raw Super 16 sized chip camera for under 1K is also something to get excited about. That actually looks like a consumer still camera. Some people will love that but others would have preferred a consumer camcorder shape.

Now my question is, are they ready to make enough of these? Yes, that's a very good question if I do say so myself.
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post #3 of 133 Old 04-07-2013, 11:06 PM
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A friend of mine is an engineer at Blackmagic and he told me a few months ago they would have something revealed at NAB, wouldn't tell me what it is, but said I would really like it. I asked him if it would be a cheap 4K camera with lens PL mount.

Looking forward to learning more about this.
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post #4 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 05:21 AM
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I would prefer a 4K with m4/3rd mount than an EF mount since any lens would work with a m4/3rd mount. Or better yet a 4K Sony NEX-VG900 that has full frame and APS-C modes.
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post #5 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 01:38 PM
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http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k

I realize I am being very picky here. It's almost perfect. Just a few things that could have helped it achieve perfection..

XLR audio input
Real 4096x2160 (not 3840x2160)
36x24mm sensor (not 21x12)
96Khz audio (not 48).
Include 48, 50, and 60fps
PL mount option
Timecode & genlock

Yes, I was being very picky and I realize that it costs only $4,000 - and it's a complete game changer!
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post #6 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 01:57 PM
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[Stewie Griffin]Game over, man! Game over!!![/Stewie Griffin] I love BlackMagic Design for what they are doing to revolutionize and shake up the cinema camera world full of over priced Canon's or measly long gradual upgrades. T5i? Give me a damn break. I may have to cancel my MFT Preorder and consider one of these.
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post #7 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

I would prefer a 4K with m4/3rd mount than an EF mount since any lens would work with a m4/3rd mount. Or better yet a 4K Sony NEX-VG900 that has full frame and APS-C modes.
I don't think you'd want an MFT mount on a Super 35mm sensor. The lenses wouldn't cover the sensor area and you'd get the worse vignetting imaginable; Just a large pool of black around your circular image. You'd need a MFT sized sensor or smaller before an MFT mount would make any sense. Of course a 4K micro four thirds sensor means smaller pixels and low light quality would suffer. Now, maybe they'll do a MFT mount for those who plan to use the Speedbooster to turn it into a one stop faster and near full frame field of view, but the speedbooster MFT converts it back to take EF lenses.
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post #8 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 02:14 PM
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I said "I would prefer a 4K with m4/3rd mount than an EF mount since any lens would work with a m4/3rd mount." that also would have a m4/3rds sensor like on my GH2 so I could use my MFT lenses like the 25mm F0.95 Nokton. I would prefer a camcorder body like my VG900 instead of the BMCC so I could use it without a rig.
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post #9 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 03:03 PM
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So I guess your interested in 4K after-all?

Anyway, here's info on the 16 sized version:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera

4K version with Super 35 sized chip:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k/
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post #10 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 04:24 PM
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I am not interested in purchasing 4K gear at todays prices. Like I said before when 4K UHDTVs drop to todays 1080p HDTV prices I will get it.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/927715-REG/sharp_80_lc_80le650u_aquos_full.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/925919-REG/Sony_XBR_84X900_84_4K_LED.html

BTW the new BMC 4K is available for pre-order :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/964119-REG/blackmagic_design_blackmagic_production_camera_4k.html
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post #11 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 06:31 PM
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Personally I'd be extremely happy with the 55" set for $5,000 http://store.sony.com/p/Sony-4K-TV-Ultra-HD/en/p/XBR55X900A but I agree that it's almost a niche at this time but that will surely change.

As expected, companies will be introducing global shutter cameras mostly in 4K so it's not surprising for Black Magic to offer that only on their 4K camera.
https://vimeo.com/63604452

The video quality shouldn't be expected to match a Sony F55 but for under 4 grand, this new Black Magic camera is really insane but as mentioned, they will really need to make sure they make enough for the expected July date. If they can do that, other companies will be extremely worried. The baby version might also be extremely popular and you can already pre-order it at B&H.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/964117-REG/Blackmagic_Design_POCKET_CINEMA_CAMERA_BLACKMAGIC_POCKET_CINEMA_CAMERA.html/
I do wonder how the video quality is going to be on the portable version.
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post #12 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

I said "I would prefer a 4K with m4/3rd mount than an EF mount since any lens would work with a m4/3rd mount." that also would have a m4/3rds sensor like on my GH2 so I could use my MFT lenses like the 25mm F0.95 Nokton. I would prefer a camcorder body like my VG900 instead of the BMCC so I could use it without a rig.

Ahh. Gotcha. That's a nice lens! biggrin.gif Well, I went ahead and pre ordered the BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera. It's too revolutionary not too. Absolutely amazing even though I usually prefer my cinema cameras on the larger side. I think I will pair it with the Metabones Speedbooster to add a stop of low light sensitivity and increase field of view closer to Super 35mm. Would be great paired with some Samyang F1.4 Cinema lenses, which would then be F1.0 lenses. Then, of course, they have their 10mm F2.8 lens coming out which will be F2.0 with Speedbooster.

I may cancel my BMCC 2.5k MFT dumb mount camera pre order...though now my wait may be even longer than before. I'm considering the 4K Camera, but I don't want to lose a stop or more of Dynamic Range, but damn the 4K resolution, compressed RAW and Global shutter are appealling. I just hope they implemented an OLPF in these cameras or plan to do something.
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post #13 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 08:11 PM
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It would probably be great if the Nikon 1 lenses were able to hook up to the Black Magic pocket camera electronically. Those lenses are made for chips a little smaller than M43 but I'm not sure though if Nikon would protest that or not.
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Camera-Lenses/1-NIKKOR-Lenses/index.page
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post #14 of 133 Old 04-08-2013, 09:03 PM
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When I saw that post I thought: I've found my next camera!

The pocket camera looks GREAT, but super 16 sensor? Why so small? Only 24-30 fps? Having 13 stops of DR is great but is it gonna worth it? Do you guys have any idea of the low light performane of this sensor? How worse it is compared to four thirds and APS-C size sensors? We wont be able to get nice and easy shallow DOF and nice looking bokehs. It looks like it will be only great when shooting in great light and when you want deep depth of field.

So we will spend 1k for:
- 13 stops of DR - thats AWESOME for post. You will have more work though
- less compressed videos - thats also good, but we have yet to see the final video quality, otherwise you will just end up wasting more HD space
- bad low light performance
- you wont be able to work with shallow depth of field
- really bad bokeh
- no slow motions. You only have 24-30fps
- It looks like it wont take pictures as well (or at least decent pictures), since no one is talking about that, even in the oficial site

I really wanna like that camera, but it looks like an overpriced gimmick that will work well only in a few situations. Please, convince me that im wrong, because I really want to like it!
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post #15 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post


The pocket camera looks GREAT, but super 16 sensor? Why so small?
Was big enough to shoot the biggest film of all time...Avatar. $2.8 billion at the box office. Shot with a Sony CinAlta 2/3" sensor 1080p/24p cinema camera. If it's good enough for James Cameron....it's good enough for me. smile.gif If it were APS-C or Super 35mm the cost would be far higher than $995. Small to save you and I lots of money. Sensors don't come free. It's already a miracle this camera is remotely near this price tag given its revolutionary unheard of features anywhere near this price range until BlackMagic Designs.
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Only 24-30 fps?
The camera is made for filmmakers, who usually shoot narrative films at 24fps, but sometimes 30p as well. Of course most of us wanted 60p option for slow-motion, but it needs more horse power to do so at RAW, thus higher price tag. Possibly quite a bit higher. Everything they are doing is to bring as much as possible as low as possible. I'd bet they'll have it next year.
Quote:
Having 13 stops of DR is great but is it gonna worth it?
Having played with the RAW DNGs it's a resounding YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS! There are no words to describe how amazing and wonderful it is, and how much latitude there is to play around with. It's pretty much the holy grail. Anyone who has worked with RAW will tell you. 13-stops is HUGE with video...HUUUUUUUUUGE! I don't think I can stress this enough. Although, if you don't know how to grade RAW well then...maybe not as much. lol. I'm well past the learning curve though. Of course there is the ProRes option for those who don't want to mess with RAW and it's great as well.
Quote:
Do you guys have any idea of the low light performance of this sensor? How worse it is compared to four thirds and APS-C size sensors?

The low light is good, but not fantastic. It's not on the 5D Mark III level, but in RAW you can bring up exposure 2-3 stops in post. It's Native 800 ISO. The amount of shadow detail and highlight detail you can recover is amazing. It uses the same sensor as the original 2.5k BMCC that is $3,000. Low light is the same as it and the BMCC compared well against the Red Epic in low light video test. The guy doing the low light test actually said it was more acceptable at 1600 ISO than the Epic in the low light shooting he was doing with the BMCC, Epic and Alexa.
Quote:
We wont be able to get nice and easy shallow DOF and nice looking bokehs.
Invest in some SLR magic hyperprimes. 12mm T1.6. 25mm F0.95. You'll get your shallow DOF and bokeh. lol. Also, the Metabones Speedbooster coming out for MFT will increase low light by a whole stop and basically make it as if it has a 29% larger sensor by reducing the focal length of the lenses.
Quote:
It looks like it will be only great when shooting in great light and when you want deep depth of field.
I've seen good enough low light examples. The pixels are decently sized, close to that of the 5D mark III, I recall and I've seen shallow DOF, just not completely way overdone shallow dof like with the Fulll Frame crazy where someone's nose is out of focus. BLEH! tongue.gif

So we will spend 1k for:
Quote:
- 13 stops of DR - thats AWESOME for post. You will have more work though
Won't complain one bit. It's phenomenal. This feature alone is worth over $1,000 by itself in my opinion. You can't find ANY video camera not made by BlackMagic Designs with close to this dynamic range under around $5499...The Canon C100 is the next step for good 12-stop video dynamic range, but it highly compressed and only 8-bit color. They just dropped their price to about $5,500 from $6,500 after the new BlackMagic cameras were announced. Also, BMCC's 13+ stop dynamic range is at ISO 800. Most DSLRs top dynamic range is around ISO 100 or 200 and decreased significantly by 800 or 1600. By that point you may be comparing 13 stops to 7, 8 or 9.
Quote:
- less compressed videos - thats also good, but we have yet to see the final video quality, otherwise you will just end up wasting more HD space
Plenty of BMCC footage online. It's fantastic. The whole point of less compression is to give more freedom in post grading before the final compression. If you start off with crap compression it makes it far more difficult to get the look/grade you want in post without it breaking apart on you.
Quote:
- bad low light performance
Hardly. Good, decent, but nothing incredible like the Canon C100 or Sony FS100U.
Quote:
- you wont be able to work with shallow depth of field
Incorrect. It's possible.
Quote:
- really bad bokeh
Only if you're using slow lenses and have no fast lenses.
Quote:
- no slow motions. You only have 24-30fps
An actual legit downfall. Although you can still do slow-mo it just won't be as great. However Twixtor can be useful.
Quote:
- It looks like it wont take pictures as well (or at least decent pictures), since no one is talking about that, even in the oficial site
It's a cinema camera, not a stills camera. Designed for making movies and portable at the same time. However, to say it can't take decent pictures is just plain wrong. With that high dynamic range and amazing color science you can take great 2k images. No, it won't take 18mp images, but it can take a higher dynamic range still at 24 or 30 frames per second, rendering much better dark detail and highlight detail within a high contrast scene than say a Panasonic Gh2 or even a Canon 5D Mark III.
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I really wanna like that camera, but it looks like an overpriced gimmick that will work well only in a few situations. Please, convince me that im wrong, because I really want to like it!
Overpriced??? rolleyes.gif You're essentially getting a PROFESSIONAL portable cinema camera nearly identical to their $3,000 model that's been compared WELL and used along with the $60,000 Arri Alexa (also called The Baby Alexa) which was used to shoot The Avengers, Game of Thrones and even the series Dexter and somehow it's overpriced at only $995? $995 is absolutely REVOLUTIONARY and unheard of with these feature. There's no camera outside of BlackMagic under $10,000 doing what this camera does. The next step up is the $16,000 Red Scarlet.

You forgot about t 12-bit color. Nearly every video camera on the market uses 8-bit color, in combination with poor codecs. Even the $16,000 Canon C300 uses 8-bit color. 12-Bit color is a huge deal, especially when grading in post. With 8-bit you're very limited on how far you can push the image in post.


Here's some RAW DNG grades I graded from an online RAW DNGs given out, first shot using just a single candlelight with the BlackMagic Cinema Camera using the same sensor as the pocket cinema camera, followed by a two more low light grades and then others I graded:



ORIGINAL FLAT:

GRADE
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post #16 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MTyson View Post

Ahh. Gotcha. That's a nice lens! biggrin.gif Well, I went ahead and pre ordered the BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera. It's too revolutionary not too. Absolutely amazing even though I usually prefer my cinema cameras on the larger side. I think I will pair it with the Metabones Speedbooster to add a stop of low light sensitivity and increase field of view closer to Super 35mm. Would be great paired with some Samyang F1.4 Cinema lenses, which would then be F1.0 lenses. Then, of course, they have their 10mm F2.8 lens coming out which will be F2.0 with Speedbooster.

I may cancel my BMCC 2.5k MFT dumb mount camera pre order...though now my wait may be even longer than before. I'm considering the 4K Camera, but I don't want to lose a stop or more of Dynamic Range, but damn the 4K resolution, compressed RAW and Global shutter are appealling. I just hope they implemented an OLPF in these cameras or plan to do something.
I bet there would be many more cancelling the BMCC 2.5K MFT if they also had a 4K MFT mount version. I think Panasonic will have 4K in the next GH3 upgrade by late 2014 and I may go for that since all of my MFT, APS-C and full frame lenses would work with it in a 1.9x 4K crop mode.My Samyang 24mm F1.4, 35mm F1.4 , 85mm F1.4 and Pentax 50mm F1.4 with Speed Booster would be F1.0 on my VG900 in APS-C mode or GH2/GH3 MFT's.
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post #17 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 07:23 AM
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Here is a nice read from John Brawley who has been testing the pocket cinema camera.

http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/the-pocket-rocket-blackmagic-downsizes-the-bmcc-and-does-a-4k-upsize-of-the-orginal/

The Mod Squad: New vs. Classic TV Series Opening https://vimeo.com/63119329
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post #18 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 09:08 AM
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Looks interesting.






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post #19 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 11:08 AM
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Mtyson, you have some good arguments, but here are my thoughts
Quote:
Was big enough to shoot the biggest film of all time...Avatar. $2.8 billion at the box office. Shot with a Sony CinAlta 2/3" sensor 1080p/24p cinema camera. If it's good enough for James Cameron....it's good enough for me.

Well, if you have the same crew as James Cameron and the same ammount of technical resources, then you are good to go!
However, if you are going to use it for amateur shooting, dont expect doing "Avatar" level stuff. When you shoot a blockbuster you dont have to deal with hard lighting situations. You have lights, reflectors, you can shoot during the day and transform it into night etc. Summarizing, you can create artificially the perfect lighting situations.
The real deal is when an amateur has to shoot during REAL low light situations. Thats the point of a pocket camera. If you have time to plan your shots, then you have time to use a full size gear.
Its easier for a blockbuster director to use a small chip compared to a normal person that is shooting not staged and spontaneous stuff.

But if you usually do blockbusters like Avatar, then forget everything I just said.
Quote:
Having played with the RAW DNGs it's a resounding YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS! There are no words to describe how amazing and wonderful it is, and how much latitude there is to play around with. It's pretty much the holy grail. Anyone who has worked with RAW will tell you. 13-stops is HUGE with video...HUUUUUUUUUGE! I don't think I can stress this enough. Although, if you don't know how to grade RAW well then...maybe not as much. lol. I'm well past the learning curve though. Of course there is the ProRes option for those who don't want to mess with RAW and it's great as well.

I've seen some comparisons with the GH3, GH2, 5DMKIII, FS100 etc and it really is something, but we cannot let the excitement outshine the other limitations. When you watch the footage side-by-side you can clearly see the difference. If you see the footage separately you can also cause a great impression with cameras with less DR. For enthusiats it will be something, but for the audience it wont separate worlds. Not to mention that when you post process you usually blow out some blacks, whites and other colors to create an atmosphere, unless you are doing a documentary. Im not saying its not a great feature, but I dont think its the holy grail either, specially if you are losing some basic stuff. Whats the point of buying a Ferrari with a great engine, but with no seats, wheels, doors etc? They are giving a great feature, but they are taking away basic features that we will probably need more than the 13 stops of DR.
Quote:
The low light is good, but not fantastic. It's not on the 5D Mark III level, but in RAW you can bring up exposure 2-3 stops in post. It's Native 800 ISO. The amount of shadow detail and highlight detail you can recover is amazing. It uses the same sensor as the original 2.5k BMCC that is $3,000. Low light is the same as it and the BMCC compared well against the Red Epic in low light video test. The guy doing the low light test actually said it was more acceptable at 1600 ISO than the Epic in the low light shooting he was doing with the BMCC, Epic and Alexa.

Same sensor? Its going to be produced by other company, isnt it? And its cropped, so the performance wont be the same.
Quote:
Invest in some SLR magic hyperprimes. 12mm T1.6. 25mm F0.95. You'll get your shallow DOF and bokeh. lol. Also, the Metabones Speedbooster coming out for MFT will increase low light by a whole stop and basically make it as if it has a 29% larger sensor by reducing the focal length of the lenses.

Yeah, right. So you will spend 1k in the camera body. Then you will have to buy a metabones SB + a fast wide angle + some fast primes and a macro? a telephoto?

So its 1k body + 3-5k in lenses. With that price you can buy the 4k camera with the bigger sensor and cheaper lenses.

Even spending that much, with such a small sensor, to be able to achieve a nice bokeh you will have to use old tricks like using zoom, getting close to the subject and far from the background etc. Thats acceptable if you have time. If its your pocket camera, you have to be able to do that fast, out of the pocket. And you wont be able to do that. If you are using it for small productions, with time and accessories, then yes, I agree with that solution. But if you are doing that, you should buy a full size camera, like the BMCC.

If you buy the 1k body + some normal lenses you will probably have average performance + the limitations of the camera. No pictures, no shallow DOF, no bokehs, bad at low light, low frame rate etc. You will be amazed when post processing the video, but your family wont see the difference.

If you want to go pro buying expensive lenses, there is no point on buying the pocket blackmagic will all of its limitations. You are better of with another camera body.
Quote:
I've seen good enough low light examples. The pixels are decently sized, close to that of the 5D mark III, I recall and I've seen shallow DOF, just not completely way overdone shallow dof like with the Fulll Frame crazy where someone's nose is out of focus. BLEH!

Can you link me to them? I've only seen bad examples. I wish I could see how it performs at 800-1600 ISO. How much detail and noise you have.

And you cant live without DOF nowadays. I dont like it overdone either, but having everything in focus all the time wont get you the wow factor in your video - unless you are doing videos only for yourself to watch. People will probably care more for the shallow DOF than for the wide dinamyc range.
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Overpriced??? rolleyes.gif You're essentially getting a PROFESSIONAL portable cinema camera nearly identical to their $3,000 model

Nearly identical to the BMCC? Where its nearly identical? For me they are pretty much different.
Quote:
it's overpriced at only $995? $995 is absolutely REVOLUTIONARY and unheard of with these feature. There's no camera outside of BlackMagic under $10,000 doing what this camera does. The next step up is the $16,000 Red Scarlet.

Its not a 1k camera. If you want to use it as your unique camera, you will have to spend 3 times that value. Event spending that much, you will probably need another camera for extreme situations.
Quote:
Here's some RAW DNG grades I graded from an online RAW DNGs given out, first shot using just a single candlelight with the BlackMagic Cinema Camera using the same sensor as the pocket cinema camera, followed by a two more low light grades and then others I graded:

The first 3 examples are far from good. I've seen the originals in some blog. Its really great the ammount of detail you can recover. In the park shot. In the originals, you couldnt see the tree in the left. In post you can make it appear, but that costs a lot. I would never use that image in a video. An APS-C or a full frame could do A LOT better in those situations.

And again, it is NOT the same sensor of the BMCC.

I've seen the video of the girl playing pool. Its a great video, but you can do similar stuff with "normal" cameras with big sensors. You will lose some details in the outside parts of the windows (highlights) etc, but if you are not doing a side-by-side, people wont notice the difference. I wonder how it will perform against a DSLR using the HDR video hack.

Anyway, its a great feature, but having it and not having all the rest will make it a good camera? I dont think so. If you are doing it just for technical pleasure, maybe. But if you are doing videos for people to see, then you are probably just wasting money.

This camera looks like just a gimmick for you to use now and then, and then lay it on your office.

A normal person would need a new hard drive and a new workstation to deal with the video files. It would spend hours post processing and the final result, for the audience, would be just a "nice" looking video. If it had a 120fps 1080p option or a great hability to do sDOF it would be another history, but being able to retain more details in the windows of the background is not worth all the features you lose.

I just dont get the point of this camera. If you want to go pro and spend a lot of money in a camera and lenses, you are better of with the 4k camera. If you want something pocketable and for amateur stuff, having 13 stops of dynamic range and 12-bit, but bad low light performance, no sDOF, no bokehs, low frame rates, big file sizes etc - makes no sense.

Its not a good camera for pro's, and its not a good camera for amateurs!

Thats the best way to describe that camera.

Its a great first step though. Now it wont take long until Sony and Panasonic start making smaller cameras with better compressions and wider DR's. In my opinion the Blackmagic will be a black sheep
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post #20 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Whats the point of buying a Ferrari with a great engine, but with no seats, wheels, doors etc? They are giving a great feature, but they are taking away basic features that we will probably need more than the 13 stops of DR.
Disagree, sorry. I'll take the 13 stops over whatever else they are leaving out. If I need something else I'll use something else whether I rent or buy. 13 stops, 12-bit color.....top of the list.
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Same sensor? Its going to be produced by other company, isnt it? And its cropped, so the performance wont be the same.
DP John Brawley, who works very closely with BlackMagic Designs has verified himself the Pocket Cinema is the same sensor as the BMCC, and also has said it performs the same.
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Yeah, right. So you will spend 1k in the camera body. Then you will have to buy a metabones SB + a fast wide angle + some fast primes and a macro? a telephoto?
I won't HAVE to buy the metabones. From what I've seen the BMCC performs BRILLIANTLY without it since no one has been able to use one yet, considering the MFT models haven't shipped yet. However, I most likely will buy it. Yes, $1,000 for the camera body with these feature is CHEAP. SUPER SUPER CHEAP. Maybe not to the average Joe, but to those looking for these kind of features that until last year were a pipe dream under $10,000 for only the brain of the Red Scarlet. are now at $999 with no super over priced proprietary accessories to get it up and running as with Red.
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So its 1k body + 3-5k in lenses. With that price you can buy the 4k camera with the bigger sensor and cheaper lenses.
Hyperbole. Sorry. I can get by with far less for lenses. If you know what to look for it's not difficult. Plus, with Speedbooster your lenses then have dual focal lengths if you need it.
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Even spending that much, with such a small sensor, to be able to achieve a nice bokeh you will have to use old tricks like using zoom, getting close to the subject and far from the background etc. Thats acceptable if you have time. If its your pocket camera, you have to be able to do that fast, out of the pocket. And you wont be able to do that. If you are using it for small productions, with time and accessories, then yes, I agree with that solution. But if you are doing that, you should buy a full size camera, like the BMCC.
My F0.95 lenses will have me not worrying one bit about depth of field. biggrin.gif I already have the BMCC on pre order, but may cancel it in favor of the pocket. Leaves more to spend on lenses, accessories.
Quote:
If you buy the 1k body + some normal lenses you will probably have average performance + the limitations of the camera. No pictures, no shallow DOF, no bokehs, bad at low light, low frame rate etc. You will be amazed when post processing the video, but your family wont see the difference.
I plane to to buy good, but not extremely expensive lenses as you mentioned above. There's a great selection on Ebay. It's quite possible some of those old 2/3" super fast zoom lenses can be used with this pocket camera with a mount adapter.
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If you want to go pro buying expensive lenses, there is no point on buying the pocket blackmagic will all of its limitations. You are better of with another camera body.
Can you link me to them? I've only seen bad examples. I wish I could see how it performs at 800-1600 ISO. How much detail and noise you have.
If you have a problem with noise you can't fix you should just get a Sony FS100U. It's a low light beast.....at the cost of highlights of course....like with every other camera with limited dynamic range. Unlike all these other cameras the BMCC/BMPCC image is not pre processed with noise reduction. Any issues I have with noise there is an absolute magic tool many love and use that works miracles with even some of the worst video noise imaginable, called NeatVideo. 800 is the BASE ISO of the camera. That's the ISO it performs best at, well with ProRes. With RAW, ISO is meaningless, because exposure can be adjusted in post. You do need to make sure you expose for the zebras properly....using aperture/NDs if needed.
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And you cant live without DOF nowadays. I dont like it overdone either, but having everything in focus all the time wont get you the wow factor in your video - unless you are doing videos only for yourself to watch. People will probably care more for the shallow DOF than for the wide dinamyc range.
People have no problem with the BMCC's depth of field. They won't be that different. And the BMCC footage on the net stomps most of the DSLR footage.
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Nearly identical to the BMCC? Where its nearly identical? For me they are pretty much different.
Yes, they look physically differently. Image wise. Virtually identical.
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Its not a 1k camera. If you want to use it as your unique camera, you will have to spend 3 times that value.
Even if true.....Fantastic value! WOOO! biggrin.gif
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Event spending that much, you will probably need another camera for extreme situations.
Rentals are great! smile.gif However, I may have a second camera IF needed. We shall see. Might pick up a Sony FS100U or Canon C100 for other uses such as extreme low light.
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The first 3 examples are far from good. I've seen the originals in some blog. Its really great the ammount of detail you can recover. In the park shot. In the originals, you couldnt see the tree in the left. In post you can make it appear, but that costs a lot. I would never use that image in a video. An APS-C or a full frame could do A LOT better in those situations.
Well, I've gotten great comments from professionals regarding them, so I'll take their word. smile.gif Their good, but your opinion is your opinion. An APS-C or full frame would have destroyed the highlights so badly the image would look like puke. I worked with the RAW, so that little vending area you saw.......would have been blown out white inside. It would have looked NASTY. The one with the woman and the oil lamp was compared directly against a low light king....the Sony FS100U. Properly exposed of course. The Sony was already destroying the highlights....any higher and the oil lamp would have become a bright blob of light. That's a $4,500 pro video camera using the same chip as the Sony F3....though I'd much rather have the Sony F3 with S-Log than the FS100U.

BTW, I plan to do some tests against DSLRs for YouTube and Vimeo. smile.gif
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And again, it is NOT the same sensor of the BMCC.
And again.....wrong. According to John Brawley, DP, you are wrong when it comes to the pocket cinema camera anyway. I will take his word sense he's the one working closely with BMD. However, the 4k Camera DOES indeed use a different sensor. That may be where you got he information mixed up. No biggie. smile.gif
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I've seen the video of the girl playing pool. Its a great video, but you can do similar stuff with "normal" cameras with big sensors. You will lose some details in the outside parts of the windows (highlights) etc, but if you are not doing a side-by-side, people wont notice the difference. I wonder how it will perform against a DSLR using the HDR video hack.
The HDR video hack sucks for the most part. I have it on my T2i. It's only useful for very slow almost static shots and it's a pain in the butt to process. I can make HDR shots tonemapping three RAW exposures from one RAW file and get awesome tonemapped footage without the flaws.
Quote:
Anyway, its a great feature, but having it and not having all the rest will make it a good camera? I dont think so. If you are doing it just for technical pleasure, maybe. But if you are doing videos for people to see, then you are probably just wasting money.
Well, I'm personally doing to shoot a feature film and paid video work.
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This camera looks like just a gimmick for you to use now and then, and then lay it on your office.
Yeah, for people who buy things just to buy them. You're right.
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A normal person would need a new hard drive and a new workstation to deal with the video files. It would spend hours post processing and the final result, for the audience, would be just a "nice" looking video. If it had a 120fps 1080p option or a great hability to do sDOF it would be another history, but being able to retain more details in the windows of the background is not worth all the features you lose.
Yep, if you shoot RAW you'll have to upgrade your HD space. Or shoot ProRes HQ. It's still far better than DLSR compression.
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I just dont get the point of this camera. If you want to go pro and spend a lot of money in a camera and lenses, you are better of with the 4k camera. If you want something pocketable and for amateur stuff, having 13 stops of dynamic range and 12-bit, but bad low light performance, no sDOF, no bokehs, low frame rates, big file sizes etc - makes no sense.
It's funny how a professional DP says the camera has good but not great low light performance and you keep calling it bad. Sorry, but I will side with a professional cinematographer on this one. The footage matches up with an Alexa better than the $16,000 Canon C300 was capable of doing on shoots for a tv series. BTW, the 4k Model is not all advantages. The Pocket and the BMCC have at least a 1 stop advantage in latitude and a bit better low light performance.

Its not a good camera for pro's, and its not a good camera for amateurs![/quote] lol. Well, many pros highly disagree with you and are already planning to use them in film and paid video projects. smile.gif
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Thats the best way to describe that camera.

Its a great first step though. Now it wont take long until Sony and Panasonic start making smaller cameras with better compressions and wider DR's. In my opinion the Blackmagic will be a black sheep
Don't hold your breath waiting on Sony, Canon or Panasonic . They're too busy protecting their overpriced highend 8-bit camera line and crippling their cameras.
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post #21 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 04:30 PM
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DP John Brawley, who works very closely with BlackMagic Designs has verified himself the Pocket Cinema is the same sensor as the BMCC, and also has said it performs the same.

Once two sensors are made by two different companies and have different sizes - correct me if im wrong - they ARE different.

https://vimeo.com/63597094

at 1:05 its really clear: "THE SENSOR IS NOT THE SAME. ITS A BRAND NEW SENSOR."

And I wouldnt trust on a review from John Brawley, since he is being "sponsored" by BM. You would be very naive to believe in everything he says. He tries to convince people to keep their order for the 2k BM. Thats ridiculous for a reviewer.

Even Philip Bloom is being wiser. He is saying that we should be careful and wait to see the performance, and not to get too excited only for the specs. (What professionals say is not THAT important for me. I can take my own conclusions, but since you let them decide for you, here it is)
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I won't HAVE to buy the metabones. From what I've seen the BMCC performs BRILLIANTLY without it since no one has been able to use one yet, considering the MFT models haven't shipped y +et. However, I most likely will buy it. Yes, $1,000 for the camera body with these feature is CHEAP. SUPER SUPER CHEAP. Maybe not to the average Joe, but to those looking for these kind of features that until last year were a pipe dream under $10,000 for only the brain of the Red Scarlet. are now at $999 with no super over priced proprietary accessories to get it up and running as with Red.

1k for the camera body + 2-3k in lenses + new workstation for most people (i've tried some BM files in my core i7 3rd gen overclocked + 2x 680 in SLI + 16gb of RAM + fast SSD HD and it can handle it with some effort)

I imagine that it would take A LOT of time to handle the RAWs and then to process the final video. I woundnt mind to do that though if the quality is similar to the original BM. This will be a camera for extreme enthusiats only. If you are going to make semi-pro or pro work, there is no reason to buy it. You are better of with the full size sister, specially because we are going out of the fullHD era.
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My F0.95 lenses will have me not worrying one bit about depth of field. biggrin.gif I already have the BMCC on pre order, but may cancel it in favor of the pocket. Leaves more to spend on lenses, accessories.

Even with fast glasses you will have a hard time trying to get sDOF. If its not important for you (and I know that its not important for many people), then its ok.
Quote:
If you have a problem with noise you can't fix you should just get a Sony FS100U. It's a low light beast.....at the cost of highlights of course....like with every other camera with limited dynamic range. Unlike all these other cameras the BMCC/BMPCC image is not pre processed with noise reduction. Any issues I have with noise there is an absolute magic tool many love and use that works miracles with even some of the worst video noise imaginable, called NeatVideo. 800 is the BASE ISO of the camera. That's the ISO it performs best at, well with ProRes. With RAW, ISO is meaningless, because exposure can be adjusted in post. You do need to make sure you expose for the zebras properly....using aperture/NDs if needed.

I have the NeatVideo plugin, and its not a miracle tool. It makes the image soft, even if you use the sharpening tool. If the BM is able to mantain details though, it should work. But the best way is to avoid noise.
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Yes, they look physically differently. Image wise. Virtually identical.

If the pocket version is able to match the big brother performance, it WILL be remakable. But I have to wait to see.
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Well, I've gotten great comments from professionals regarding them, so I'll take their word. smile.gif Their good, but your opinion is your opinion. An APS-C or full frame would have destroyed the highlights so badly the image would look like puke. I worked with the RAW, so that little vending area you saw.......would have been blown out white inside. It would have looked NASTY. The one with the woman and the oil lamp was compared directly against a low light king....the Sony FS100U. Properly exposed of course. The Sony was already destroying the highlights....any higher and the oil lamp would have become a bright blob of light. That's a $4,500 pro video camera using the same chip as the Sony F3....though I'd much rather have the Sony F3 with S-Log than the FS100U.

Im sorry, but the circus image is not usable. And I have the comparison with the FS100U. The BM is great when you have a lot of light, but that little screencap is not a good object of discussion. Yes, the sony blows up the lamp, BUT you have less noise and more detail. And the guy went only to 800 ISO. The sony can go higher than that and still create nice looking images, even if you wont be able to see the center of the lamp. But anyway, the performance of the BM is decent. I wonder if the pocket version will be able to match it!
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Well, I'm personally doing to shoot a feature film and paid video work.

That way I can see that camera being usefull for you. But pocket cameras are usually not made for that.
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Yep, if you shoot RAW you'll have to upgrade your HD space. Or shoot ProRes HQ. It's still far better than DLSR compression.

yup. Its 10-bit, isnt it? but if I had that camera I woudnt resist and I would shoot everything in RAW lol
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The footage matches up with an Alexa better than the $16,000 Canon C300 was capable of doing on shoots for a tv series.

Where did you see that the performace of the BM is better than the C300? I would like to see that. Could change my opinion a little bit.
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Well, many pros highly disagree with you and are already planning to use them in film and paid video projects.

Real pros? Or "pros"? Or pros "sponsored" or that are getting "free samples" from BM? I cant imagine a real pro using a pocket camera for serious work. Maybe as a backup camera to attach to some car in an action scene or stuff like that - but NEVER as a main gear.
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Don't hold your breath waiting on Sony, Canon or Panasonic . They're too busy protecting their overpriced highend 8-bit camera line and crippling their cameras.

Yeah.. sadly, thats possible.

Anyway, if you are going to buy one, be sure to share some comparisons and samples with us. IF this little thing is able to match the original BMCC quality, I'll be the next to buy one!
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post #22 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 05:05 PM
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I pre-ordered the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera from B&H to use with my MFT , APS-C and full frame lenses .
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with some full frame lenses you will have the range of the hubble telescope lol

jogiba, start praying! I would be afraid to pre-order cameras from blakmagic!

And please, post samples as soon as possible! As I said, if its as good as the big sister, I'll also buy one. I dont want to adventure 1k though. I need to see some footage. We dont even know the final specs of the camera. Its basically a prototype yet.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T4nLL-osUo&feature=youtu.be

another guy saying its a completely new sensor

and it looks like it will only come with prores videos out of the box. compressed RAW will come in future firmware upgrades
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post #25 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 05:37 PM
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what lenses would you guys use for a crop factor of 3? it will be hard to have wide angles


ps.: in this video ----> https://vimeo.com/63597094 <---- at 7:10 the guy says this camera wont be able to handle compressed RAW files. is he wrong? he says its a prores camera. he could be wrong though, lol. if he is, he will get fired
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T4nLL-osUo&feature=youtu.be

another guy saying its a completely new sensor

This is what John had to say, and given he was right about last years mistakes made by the rep I trust his word. He is a really cool guy and know his stuff very well:

" Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
It's the same sensor as the BMCC. Just a different size. The 4K is a new sensor.

JB.
Thanks for making it clear again, that was what I thought at first but at 1:06 in the video the rep says that it's not. Maybe he got that one mixed up. "
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what lenses would you guys use for a crop factor of 3? it will be hard to have wide angles


ps.: in this video ----> https://vimeo.com/63597094 <---- at 7:10 the guy says this camera wont be able to handle compressed RAW files. is he wrong? he says its a prores camera. he could be wrong though, lol. if he is, he will get fired

They must be wrong, because it clearly advertises it on their product page in full vivid color. lol. http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/

"Record to SD Cards
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera features a built in SD card recorder that captures stunning ProRes 422 (HQ) and lossless compressed CinemaDNG files to fast SDXC cards."

Those rep guys showing off the cameras always seem to make several mistakes about the details.
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post #28 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 06:55 PM
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I pre-ordered the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera from B&H to use with my MFT , APS-C and full frame lenses .

biggrin.gif I'm considering pre ordering a second one. I'm really excited about this little marvel. I've never been interested in a tiny cam like this, but then again no tiny cam has ever had video specs like this before. I'm ready to do some tests. I have a T2i at the moment with magic lantern to compare against. Hope to test against some other cameras in the future and post on YouTube.

What's really crazy when you think about what BlackMagic Design has done turning the indie cinema camera world upside down is that you can own a Super 35mm 4K Compressed RAW Cinema camera with Global Shutter, 12-stops of dynamic range, 12-bit color, ProRes HQ 4k high bit rate recording, 5" touch screen monitor & SSD recorder, a 2.5k RAW cinema camera with most of the same with 13-stops of dynamic range comparing against the Alexa's quality and a 16mm Pocket cinema camera with nearly the same specs as the original BMCC except with an ACTIVE MFT mount....+ 2 copies of DaVinci Resolve and Super Scope for under $8,000.

It wasn't that long ago when you couldn't buy ONE camera with these features for even $15,000, let alone 3 of them for $8,000. BlackMagic Design is what Red was trying to be before it killed many dreams with their Scarlet 3k for $3k. BMD picked up where that dream left off and one upped them. Pocket Cinema for $1k and 4k for $4k. Amazing. Can't wait to see if they make an upgraded model next year. I have a feeling they will bring forth a Super 35mm model next year with 60p capability at least and more dynamic range. Maybe even an HDR-x kind of mode.
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Originally Posted by MTyson View Post

biggrin.gif I'm considering pre ordering a second one. I'm really excited about this little marvel. I've never been interested in a tiny cam like this, but then again no tiny cam has ever had video specs like this before. I'm ready to do some tests. I have a T2i at the moment with magic lantern to compare against. Hope to test against some other cameras in the future and post on YouTube.

What's really crazy when you think about what BlackMagic Design has done turning the indie cinema camera world upside down is that you can own a Super 35mm 4K Compressed RAW Cinema camera with Global Shutter, 12-stops of dynamic range, 12-bit color, ProRes HQ 4k high bit rate recording, 5" touch screen monitor & SSD recorder, a 2.5k RAW cinema camera with most of the same with 13-stops of dynamic range comparing against the Alexa's quality and a 16mm Pocket cinema camera with nearly the same specs as the original BMCC except with an ACTIVE MFT mount....+ 2 copies of DaVinci Resolve and Super Scope for under $8,000.

It wasn't that long ago when you couldn't buy ONE camera with these features for even $15,000, let alone 3 of them for $8,000. BlackMagic Design is what Red was trying to be before it killed many dreams with their Scarlet 3k for $3k. BMD picked up where that dream left off and one upped them. Pocket Cinema for $1k and 4k for $4k. Amazing. Can't wait to see if they make an upgraded model next year. I have a feeling they will bring forth a Super 35mm model next year with 60p capability at least and more dynamic range. Maybe even an HDR-x kind of mode.
Couldn't have said it better myself. The BM Pocket Cinema Camera is a no-brainer, with 13 stops of dynamic range, prores 422, Super 16 sized sensor, and active MFT mount. Yes, the sensor is smaller than MFT, but it is still 6 times larger than the sensor in Canon G30, which is considered to have a large sensor for a video camera. With fast glass (either native MFT glass, or native C-mount glass, or speedboosted-FX glass) it will be easy to get shallow depth of field when you want it, and deep depth of field when you want that. You can even use MFT lenses with optical image stabilization for decent handheld footage. The only downside is that with only 1920x1080 active pixels, the frames will de-Bayer to only 756 vertical lines of measured resolution. Some cameras offer more measured resolution, but many do not, including all the single-sensor Canon video cameras and all of the large sensor Panasonic video cameras. The BMPCC really is a price-performance revolution.
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post #30 of 133 Old 04-09-2013, 07:21 PM
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I think short FL C-mount lenses would work on the Pocket Cinema Camera for wide angle use. I have a 12.5mm F1.3 that I purchased for my Pentax Q and have a MFT-C mount adapter for it. I also have a 6.5mm Opteka (Samyang) APS-C lens that I use on my GH2 with adapter.


12.5mm F1.3 C-mount lens and my Pentax Q with 85mm F1.4
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