Canon Powershot Cameras - High Speed Video Only - Any with >320X240@ 240 fps resolution & > 30 sec recording time? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 05-09-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I am generally interested in the cheapest (say, <$200 used) available high speed video cameras that might produce useful HS videos for the analyses of athletic motions such as golf swings or tennis strokes. I am only interested in high speed video performance, usually around the 240 fps frame rate.

There are many models of Canon Powershot cameras and there are some used models for under $150 that can do 240 fps.

Spatial Resolution at 240 fps. The few that I've checked seem to have a resolution of 320 X 240 at 240 fps.

Do you know of any Canon Powershot models that have higher resolution than 320X240 in high speed video mode around 240 fps ?

Recording Time Limit in High Speed Video Mode. One Powershot model that I checked had a limit on the recording time of about 30 seconds. That would be a very negative feature in many sports applications, for example, of golf swings or tennis strokes unless there were another person to video the action.

Do you know of any Canon Powershots that have recording times longer than 30 seconds at 240 fps in high speed video mode?

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post #2 of 16 Old 05-09-2013, 09:21 AM
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I don't know whether the above post is a question or answer, but here's a fact:

The $299 Panasonic LX7 does 240 fps at 640 x 480 resolution, no time limit. It does 120 fps at 1280 x 720, no time limit.
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post #3 of 16 Old 05-11-2013, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I don't know whether the above post is a question or answer, but here's a fact:

The $299 Panasonic LX7 does 240 fps at 640 x 480 resolution, no time limit. It does 120 fps at 1280 x 720, no time limit.

I am on a tennis forum where players submit videos everyday of their strokes, in particular, of their serves. The videos are somewhat useful for the slower object velocities (leg thrust) but cannot possibly show the fastest motion in the serve - internal shoulder rotation that occurs over 0.03 second and other motions that last less than 1/10 second. In addition to the low 30 or 60 fps frame rates, motion blur, due to slow shutter speeds, usually blurs out any useful information whenever object velocities are high. High speed video at, say, 240 fps with fast shutter speeds (1/2000 sec?) is required.

Few people are interested in high speed video especially if they have to pay a few hundred dollars to get a camera. I would like to recommend a useful high speed video camera, especially a used one for under $100. What I'm after is the cheapest camera that is workable for tennis, golf or other athletic motions. People might already own Canon Powershot models that have high speed video modes with fast enough shutter speeds to be useful. On the down side, the Powershot resolution is poor but useful and some (all?) only record for 30 seconds.

See Reply #755 for an example video using a Canon Powershot ELPH HS 100 -
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/250245-casio-camera-thread/page__st__750

There are other high speed cameras discussed including other Powershots in that long "Casio Camera Thread".

This Powershot model produces smaller motion blur because in bright sunlight its automatic exposure control selects a faster shutter, perhaps 1/2000 sec. (?) For tennis the racket would probably be easier to see than a chrome (reflecting grass, low contrast) golf club shaft. In my opinion, that camera could produce useful high speed video for athletic analysis.

To test a Powershot, I ordered a used Canon Powershot 100 HS for $80 from a new supplier on mAazon. That supplier did absolutely nothing and did not communicate. The order was cancelled after 5 or 6 weeks.

Motion Blur of Panasonic FZ200 & LX7 for High Speed Video? - I have been looking for information on the Panasonic cameras with high speed video such as the FZ200 and LX7 - especially the shutter speed in high speed video mode. A dpreview inquiry did not yield any information on the shutter speed in bright sunlight. I have not been able to find videos of objects with known velocities such as golf club swings viewed from the side from which to estimate the motion blur/shutter speed. The standard Youtube I look for is a golf swing from the side (as in the above Casio Camera Thread) - to see the amount of motion blur on the club shaft and head. (Hummingbird wings are not very useful for quantitative estimates of motion blur since the wings are very blurred and their velocities are unknown.) Also, for a first try at high speed video, cameras that cost $300 will discourage many people whereas for $100 many more might go for it.
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post #4 of 16 Old 05-11-2013, 10:35 AM
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You've been on this quest for a long time! Where is the tennis forum? What cameras are people using to submit their videos?
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post #5 of 16 Old 05-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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Chas has a vimeo channel with 35 clips here: https://vimeo.com/user6237669
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post #6 of 16 Old 05-11-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Chas has a vimeo channel with 35 clips here: https://vimeo.com/user6237669

My clips were taken with a Casio EX FH100 camera that is perfect for the application as it has full manual exposure control in high speed video mode. This model is no longer manufactured and the price has rises to just under $1000. In 2011, when I believe production ended, I once saw the FH100 for $179........................ The good old days are gone for high speed video.

In this thread, I'm looking for a $100 compromise high speed video camera................
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post #7 of 16 Old 05-12-2013, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

You've been on this quest for a long time! Where is the tennis forum? What cameras are people using to submit their videos?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

People use smartphone cameras that usually do have fast shutter speeds in bright sunlight. Other unspecified cameras. 30 or 60 fps. Probably less than 5% of the submitted videos are high speed videos of any sort.
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post #8 of 16 Old 05-12-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

People use smartphone cameras that usually do have fast shutter speeds in bright sunlight. Other unspecified cameras. 30 or 60 fps. Probably less than 5% of the submitted videos are high speed videos of any sort.
Interesting site. More interesting is the wide variety of what people do with video now that basic video shooting and sharing is so easy and common. Somehow learning to be a better tennis player by sharing on a website is not one I would have thought of. But, it makes sense. I once paid someone to try to teach me to play golf. It would have been better with high speed video.

Bill
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post #9 of 16 Old 05-12-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Interesting site. More interesting is the wide variety of what people do with video now that basic video shooting and sharing is so easy and common. Somehow learning to be a better tennis player by sharing on a website is not one I would have thought of. But, it makes sense. I once paid someone to try to teach me to play golf. It would have been better with high speed video.

Bill

After being very interested in tennis stroke techniques for decades, in 2011 on that forum, I learned that my understanding of what goes on in the tennis serve was totally wrong! And apparently it was not well understood by anyone until the 1990's when researchers, B. Elliott & others, made careful observations with high speed filming & video and published their observations. It is still not widely understood by tennis players. Most clips on my Vimeo account deal with this interesting subject - the part played by internal shoulder rotation in the tennis serve. You have to watch carefully to see the upper arm rotate at the elbow at ball impact.....that's the ISR..........It's still mislabeled 'pronation' in tennis lingo .............

The fastest identifiable motions that go on in the tennis strokes are often only 20 or 30 milliseconds long from start to finish. If you try to view things that change considerably in 20 or 30 milliseconds with a camera that takes one frame every 33 millisecond (30 fps) or every 17 milliseconds (60 fps), it is not possible to see what is happening. Also, many videos have significant motion blur which makes things even worse.

The majority of videos submitted for the tennis serve do not allow adequate analysis by the server or those viewing the videos.............?

BTW - Golfer's have been the biggest market for high speed video cameras.
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post #10 of 16 Old 05-12-2013, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post

........BTW - Golfer's have been the biggest market for high speed video cameras.

It has been a long time since I played much golf. When I did, I spent a little time watching a video training course developed by one of the pros. Most golfers swing with their arms and shoulders. The real golf swing is done by winding the entire body like a coil. While winding the coil the weight transfers to the back leg and only the toe of the front foot is touching the ground. When the coil is triggered the entire body's energy is unleashed and transferred to the head of the club. When uncoiled, the golfers entire weight has transferred to the front foot and the rear toe is on the ground. While uncoiling, the golfer has to position the driver's head so it strikes perfectly square to prevent side spin. As many know, the ball can then travel about two or three lengths of a football field.
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post #11 of 16 Old 05-15-2013, 09:39 AM
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If you wait a few years; you might be able to pick up a GoPro Hero 3 Black Edition that would get the fps/resolution that you are looking for:

http://gopro.com/cameras/hd-hero3-black-edition

Sorry. Best I could come up with as a suggestion. Maybe there are other ‘action cams’ that specialize in high frame rates with decent resolution though that you can pick up cheap on Ebay? My experience with Powershots (G6/12, GX1) has been that high frame rate video is not their forte.
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post #12 of 16 Old 09-11-2013, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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From Kinovea post ==

Low Cost High Speed Video Cameras Capable of Tennis Stroke & Other Athletic Motion Analysis.

The high performance, high speed video cameras, such as the Casio EX FH100, with full manual exposure control, as discussed above, are not currently in production in 2013. They are worth it but are now expensive and difficult to find.

How about much lower priced cameras with automatic exposure control?

General High Speed Video Cameras with Automatic Exposure Control. To video tennis strokes, low priced, high speed video (> 60 fps) cameras are available. The currently available cameras all have automatic exposure control (AEC). The shutter speed selected by the camera's automatic exposure control might not be optimized to minimize motion blur. In other words, you often get too much motion blur with automatic exposure control cameras. The amount of motion blur from these cameras is not predictable from available information but can always be measured in tests.

Canon Powershot ELPH 110 HS/ IXUS 125 Tests. I purchased a low priced Canon Powershot 110 HS / IXUS 125 camera in order to test it for tennis stroke analysis. It does 240 fps at a reduced resolution of 320 X 240.

The automatic exposure control selects the shutter speed based on the light received from the scene. The specs list the fastest shutter speed as 1/2000 sec, but it is not known if that shutter speed is reached for high speed video mode. Unfortunately, predicting the shutter speed that this camera's AEC might select is not possible without testing.

To test for shutter speed/ motion blur in direct sunlight -
1) Observed the motion blur on a rotating disc.
2) Observed the motion blur on the tennis ball and racket of a tennis serve.

I found that a very important setting for minimizing motion blur was the zoom setting on the lens. The widest angle zoom aperture setting has the fastest f#, probably 2.7. The wide angle zoom produces very small motion blur in direct sunlight - see videos below. The telephoto aperture setting is probably f# 5.9 and produces significant motion blur - see videos below. In fact, the telephoto videos below show that the motion blur from the ball streak is roughly equal to the distance that the ball travels between frames. This implies that the shutter speed for those videos was roughly equal to the time between frame, 1/240 sec. For these videos, it might also have been important for the AEC that more skylight was accepted by the wide angle field of view than by the telephoto's field of view. See note below on light metering.


To attempt single frame advance on Vimeo press the play-pause control as fast as possible. The video image quality after compression on Vimeo is not as good as viewing directly on my computer or on the camera's display.

Widest angle zoom setting - small motion blur
https://vimeo.com/74060780
https://vimeo.com/74060778
https://vimeo.com/74060705

Most telephoto zoom setting - considerable motion blur
https://vimeo.com/74060777
https://vimeo.com/74060779

These tests were under direct sunlight to get a fast shutter. With less light the motion blur will increase. See also other Canon high speed video tests of tennis serves and also a rotating disc test to show Jello Effect distortion and shutter speed.

This camera cost $119, refurbished, with free shipping on sale from Canon. The one I received was in like new condition.
http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/powershot-elph-110-hs-red-refurbished

The Canon 110 HS camera is capable of showing the fastest parts of the tennis serve with wide angle zoom setting and under favorable lighting conditions. Other Canon Powershot cameras with high speed video might work in the same way. ? Other low cost cameras with high speed video might also produce small motion blur with wide angle lens settings and in direct sunlight. ?

To minimize motion blur - video in direct sunlight with the widest angle zoom setting and have a bright background.

Note: The Canon Powershot 110 HS in high speed video mode uses Canon 'Evaluative' light metering to view the scene for its automatic exposure control. Here is a general link on Canon Evaluative light metering. It is not very clear or useful and may not apply to the Powershot 110 HS.
http://www.cyberscholar.com/canon/camera/index.cfm?page=trainingCenter&product=evaluative_metering&productPage=mod0101&menu=mod_on1
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post #13 of 16 Old 09-12-2013, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I don't know whether the above post is a question or answer, but here's a fact:

The $299 Panasonic LX7 does 240 fps at 640 x 480 resolution, no time limit. It does 120 fps at 1280 x 720, no time limit.

What's the problem with Mark's suggestion of the LX7? It can do 240 fps with twice the resolution you've requested, has an very bright lens (far better than any powershot), and full manual control so you can set your own shutter speed.
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post #14 of 16 Old 09-12-2013, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

What's the problem with Mark's suggestion of the LX7? It can do 240 fps with twice the resolution you've requested, has an very bright lens (far better than any powershot), and full manual control so you can set your own shutter speed.

I don't believe that the LX7 has manual control in high speed video mode.

How much motion blur is produced by the LX7 under favorable conditions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post

.......................................................................................................................................................................................
Motion Blur of Panasonic FZ200 & LX7 for High Speed Video? - I have been looking for information on the Panasonic cameras with high speed video such as the FZ200 and LX7 - especially the shutter speed in high speed video mode. A dpreview inquiry did not yield any information on the shutter speed in bright sunlight. I have not been able to find videos of objects with known velocities such as golf club swings viewed from the side from which to estimate the motion blur/shutter speed. The standard Youtube I look for is a golf swing from the side (as in the above Casio Camera Thread) - to see the amount of motion blur on the club shaft and head. (Hummingbird wings are not very useful for quantitative estimates of motion blur since the wings are very blurred and their velocities are unknown.) Also, for a first try at high speed video, cameras that cost $300 will discourage many people whereas for $100 many more might go for it.
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post #15 of 16 Old 09-12-2013, 10:16 AM
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Mark, can you confirm that the LX7 provides some manual control in 240 fps mode?
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post #16 of 16 Old 09-17-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

Mark, can you confirm that the LX7 provides some manual control in 240 fps mode?

It does not. Shoot in bright light, and the algorithm will pick high shutter speeds automatically.
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