Need help deciding between HXR-NX70U , AG-AC130A , HDR-PJ790V , HC-X920 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which camcorder would you prefer?
Sony HXR-NX70U 0 0%
Panasonic AG-AC130A 0 0%
Sony HDR-PJ790V 4 80.00%
Panasonic HC-X920 1 20.00%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
vang0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I need help deciding which camcorder to buy. Aside from more manual controls and programmable buttons, how are the consumer camcorders HDR-PJ790V and HC-X920, compared to the professional camcorders HXR-NX70U and AG-AC130A. These consumer camcorders have come a long way and specifications are nearly equivalent to the professional camcorders now. The most important feature to me is video quality in all conditions. That is low light, high contrast, fast action, mobile/stabilization, etc.
vang0330 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Different cams. Silly poll.
Ungermann is offline  
post #3 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
vang0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You said different cams. Do point out the major differences. :-) Also, point out the silliness. :-)
vang0330 is offline  
post #4 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 02:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Really, two pro cams and two consumer cams.

NX70 - if you need a compact and weatherproof pro camera
AC130 - a well-rounded handheld camera for a pro
X920 - high resolution and good sensitivity, but must be crappy usability from my previous encounters with the SD600, TM700 and TM900, though granted I haven't used the X920 and I've heard it has slightly different (hopefully, improved) menu system. Really, it cannot get any worse than the TM900, but hey this is Panasonic, they can screw all the good stuff they had. Allows full manual exposure control though.
PJ790 - don't care for modern Sonys as they don't have full manual exposure control. Otherwise should be a solid consumer cam.

P.S. Image quality is everyone top priority, this is silly to even mention as a criterion. But maybe you have something else in mind, like size, portability, certain features, must look professional, must have dreamy movie-like DOF. Maybe you want certain codec, although all these come with AVCHD. Do you want to shoot presumably handheld, or from a tripod? Do you need XLR connectors? Lots of questions.

My take is that you don't know what you want or need. In this case buy a used cam off eBay for $200 or so, start using it, then you will figure out what it lacks and you will buy your second camera fully knowing what you want.

I was interested for the NX70 because I like small feature-packed cams, but then I've heard about issues with its stabilizer or was it something else, so I crossed it out.

I never wanted the AC130, I rather wanted the HMC150 for 3CCD. Anyway, both are too large for an amateur and have only 1/3-inch. These are journalist's cams.

The X920 is one of the best consumer cams, hopefully Panasonic improved the horrendous menu known from earlier models.

As I said above, I don't care for the consumer Sonys because they lack fully manual exposure control.

P.S. Get a used HMC40 off eBay for $1200 or so. Lots of features, great image quality, light sensitivity is not stellar, kind of two generations behind current consumer Panasonic cams.
Ungermann is offline  
post #5 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 108
The Sony NX70 is two generations behind the consumer Sony cam 790. It is inferior in resolution to the 790 (and 760) and much inferior in its stabilization. It is only of interest because of its waterproofing. The NX70 has the same menu system and manual controls as the Sony consumer cams. The NX30U is the professional version of the consumer 760 and 790, and thus is superior in every way but waterproofing to the NX70. It is essentially the same as the top Sony consumer cams (in degree of manual control, video quality, stabilization). It has superior audio capabilities, though now not much better than the 790 (it is one generation behind the 790).
vang0330 likes this.
markr041 is offline  
post #6 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 03:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2012/12/20/sony-hxr-nx30-review-of-2012/

"The NX30′s only problem is that it doesn’t allow for control over gain, shutter and aperture at the same time. Take your pick.. but you can only do one at a time. The three most fundamental aspects of camera control and this camera has them blocked. Shocking to see on Sony’s “NXCAM” pro brand."
Ungermann is offline  
post #7 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2012/12/20/sony-hxr-nx30-review-of-2012/

"The NX30′s only problem is that it doesn’t allow for control over gain, shutter and aperture at the same time. Take your pick.. but you can only do one at a time. The three most fundamental aspects of camera control and this camera has them blocked. Shocking to see on Sony’s “NXCAM” pro brand."

It's what I said: the "pro" NXCAMs are just rebadged consumer cams (of different vintages), with essentially the same menus, features (except audio), and performance (there are a few tiny differences).

The flip side of this is the top Sony consumer cams are quite good in terms of performance - they are essentially pro cams (leaving aside the "full" manual option). They also do not have the many external button controls and control rings that pro cameras have - all menu driven - and less flexibility for video "looks."
markr041 is offline  
post #8 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 04:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I see no reason of choosing a Sony over a Panasonic. You can shoot in auto or shutter prioiry with both, or you can shoot with manual exposure settings with Panasonic, although getting through menu is a bit painful. Sony cams have nothing that the Pannies lack. Oh wait, they have native 24p and OIS with "flying lens".
Ungermann is offline  
post #9 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
vang0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for helping confirm that the Sony NXCAMS are nearly equivalent to the top end consumer units. Also mentioned above was that the NX70U is a few generations back. If that is the case, are there any new NXCAMS within the $5K that have superior image quality compared to current top end consumer units? (Just carious, as enough bashing on Sony has made me think twice about their camcorders.)

Also, looking at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFHdEApHqQg

I am concluding that the Panasonic AG-AC130/160 is much better than both the Sony NXCAMS and the PJ790 as both Sony units seem to use the same 1/3 sensor and etc. My conclusion was based on image color and sharpness. I've noticed that a lot of the Sony cameras appear to be more bluish and pale. If the Panasonic AC130/160 3MOS sensor is pretty good, I would assume that the 3MOS in the X920 would be just as equivalent or better. The X920 does sport a bigger image sensor than the AC130/160 too.

This video in my opinion, gives another thumbs up to Panasonic over Sony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gjVWdx10uY

Too bad my local Best Buy does not have an X920 or any Panasonics for that matter. I am unable to compare the optical image stabilization. Although, having OIS along with level shot could be advantageous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlkgrEkzqXc

Now with questions regarding form factor and so forth, it appears the Panasonic X920 is the winner. Now I just need to find a local shop with one. :-( Or order one. Thanks!
vang0330 is offline  
post #10 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 06:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I have the PJ790 and am quite happy with it.

Not sure how the Panasonic works but there used to be problems with avchd cams and shooting clips larger than 4 gig. The file would have to be broken up because of the 4gig limitation on FAT32 file systems. Those broken up files would pose a problem when being put back together (you would get a few lost frames). Sony has fixed that issue with the PJ790.

The stabilization is nothing short of amazing, and the projector (which I never thought I would bother to use) has come in handy the odd time.

My only complaint really is that with my old sony SR11 I could snap a picture while recording video at the same time. The PJ790 won't let me do that.,
bigbarney is offline  
post #11 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 06:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by vang0330 View Post


. I've noticed that a lot of the Sony cameras appear to be more bluish and pale.
color warmth is adjustable
Quote:
I am unable to compare the optical image stabilization. Although, having OIS along with level shot could be advantageous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlkgrEkzqXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_yWXlQ-4A
bigbarney is offline  
post #12 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 09:00 PM
Senior Member
 
SD90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by vang0330 View Post

T it appears the Panasonic X920 is the winner.
What about the sound quality of the X920? Even in a library quiet room, the X920's built in microphone records alot of distracting noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xFua-XZ48U
SD90 is offline  
post #13 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
vang0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

color warmth is adjustable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlkgrEkzqXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_yWXlQ-4A

Good to know. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

What about the sound quality of the X920? Even in a library quiet room, the X920's built in microphone records alot of distracting noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xFua-XZ48U

I agree that the X920 sound quality doesn't compare to the PJ790. Watch and listen at 2:08 in the following video. I am assuming this is caused by Panasonic's Wind Noise Cancellation technology, which probably is not much more than a white noise generator. :-(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlnkmbOd_CM

Trying to compare the two with online content is sure frustrating. Wish a local retailer had the PJ790 and X920.
vang0330 is offline  
post #14 of 26 Old 07-11-2013, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by vang0330 View Post


Trying to compare the two with online content is sure frustrating. Wish a local retailer had the PJ790 and X920.

I don't think you can lose with either one. They're both bloody good and you can stand there all day splitting hairs.... but you're just splitting hairs. I think what it comes down to are the options. The panny is cheaper but then as I understand it, it has no internal memory. The sony does not have built in wifi and the panny does. The sony comes with basic infra red technology for shooting in TOTAL darkness while the panny does not. The sony comes with a dead cat wind screen and lens hood. The sony does have manual adjustment but most of it is buried deep in the menu system (irritating). The sony has the projector... which turns out to be pretty neat because you can project other things besides what's in the cam. You can connect your phone for example.The Sony does not have 24p.
bigbarney is offline  
post #15 of 26 Old 07-11-2013, 10:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vang0330 View Post


Trying to compare the two with online content is sure frustrating. Wish a local retailer had the PJ790 and X920.

I don't think you can lose with either one. They're both bloody good and you can stand there all day splitting hairs.... but you're just splitting hairs. I think what it comes down to are the options. The panny is cheaper but then as I understand it, it has no internal memory. The sony does not have built in wifi and the panny does. The sony comes with basic infra red technology for shooting in TOTAL darkness while the panny does not. The sony comes with a dead cat wind screen and lens hood. The sony does have manual adjustment but most of it is buried deep in the menu system (irritating). The sony has the projector... which turns out to be pretty neat because you can project other things besides what's in the cam. You can connect your phone for example.The Sony does not have 24p.
The PJ790 does not have 24p? No reason to choose the Sony then. The Pana has 24p (albeit in 60i wrapper, but if you really need it, it is there and there are tools to extract it), its OIS is good enough (no need for fancy Sony "flying" lens) and it has better exposure control (the Sony is priority mode for one parameter at a time, or a combined "Exposure" thingy).
Ungermann is offline  
post #16 of 26 Old 07-11-2013, 07:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

The PJ790 does not have 24p?
Well personally speaking I don't think the 24p on any of these cams is worthy of what it's SUPPOSED to be (and that is more film-like). It's more of a gimmick than anything else because it sure doesn't look like film. To my eyes it looks more like digital video simply being slowed down, which equates to not much more than lost information.

But yes... if 24p is important to you then the Sony is not your best choice.
bigbarney is offline  
post #17 of 26 Old 07-11-2013, 09:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paulo Teixeira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 32
In 2013, I think it's crazy that Panasonic is still putting 24p within 60i in their top consumer camcorders especially knowing that you can get it on the GH2 and GH3 but on the other hand, once you properly extract it, it's pure 24p plain and simple. This is how a lot of the older professional camcorders did 24p so it's not a gimmick unless you mean that 24p alone doesn't necessarily make a video look like film since their are other factors involved such as dynamic range, Shallow DOF, etc.

According to this, the PJ790 does have 24p unless it's a mistake.
http://store.sony.com/p/Sony-96GB-Full-HD-Projector-Camcorder/en/p/HDRPJ790V
Quote:
Model Highlights: 1920 x 1080 Full HD 24p/60p video, 24.1MP stills, Exmor® R CMOS sensor, 35 lumen projector, HDMI input for projection from external devices, top-mounted 5.1-channel surround sound mic

If your going into that price range than you might as well include the Canon G30, XA20, XA25 and the Panasonic AC90 (Pure 24p from the beginning unlike the X920) which I personally own.
Paulo Teixeira is offline  
post #18 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 04:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Moreover, the Sony site says this about the PJ790: "For extra control over image expression, CinemaTone technology is used to deepen the color and recreate film-like color tones. Combined with 24p recording, you’ll have some of the tools you need to fulfill your need for cinematic expression."
markr041 is offline  
post #19 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 04:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Moreover, the Sony site says this about the PJ790: "For extra control over image expression, CinemaTone technology is used to deepen the color and recreate film-like color tones. Combined with 24p recording, you’ll have some of the tools you need to fulfill your need for cinematic expression."
Never noticed but yes... quite correct. My mistake... sorry.. Shows how much I believe in 24p!
bigbarney is offline  
post #20 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 04:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

so it's not a gimmick unless you mean that 24p alone doesn't necessarily make a video look like film .
Film and digital video are 2 different things and (for me anyway) trying to mimic film with digital video is like trying to watch a badly done 3d movie. It looks fake, juddery, and unrealistic.

Quote:
Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector playing Blu-ray or HD DVD at 24p.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
bigbarney is offline  
post #21 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 10:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

so it's not a gimmick unless you mean that 24p alone doesn't necessarily make a video look like film .
Film and digital video are 2 different things and (for me anyway) trying to mimic film with digital video is like trying to watch a badly done 3d movie. It looks fake, juddery, and unrealistic.

Quote:
Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector playing Blu-ray or HD DVD at 24p.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
It may look differently from a movie theater, but it looks pretty much the same as a traditional movie on a traditional TV. By the way, many TVs do the same "double shutter" effect when playing 24p movies like Panasonic TVs. Pioneer was doing essentially triple shutter with 72 Hz. So yes, it is pretty much the same as real movie. Not to mention that "real movies" are dead. Film is dead.
Ungermann is offline  
post #22 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 02:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bigbarney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

It may look differently from a movie theater, but it looks pretty much the same as a traditional movie on a traditional TV.
Pretty much? What does that mean? It must mean not the same because I can sure tell the difference.

As stated... IMO it's not much more than a gimmick which doesn't work very well.
bigbarney is offline  
post #23 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,755
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

It may look differently from a movie theater, but it looks pretty much the same as a traditional movie on a traditional TV.
Pretty much? What does that mean? It must mean not the same because I can sure tell the difference.

As stated... IMO it's not much more than a gimmick which doesn't work very well.
You got me. I hate weasel words myself. Yes, I wanted to say "the same". The difference you see is caused by something else than frame rate. Better production I guess. Acting. Fancy camera moves. But motion is the same. Also, there are no film movies anymore. Film is dead. Movies are digital, the difference is in production.

In any case, no reason to argue about perception. But technically, the Sony has native 24p, the Pana has telecined 24p -> one point to the Sony, not because of the looks but because of streamlined workflow.
Ungermann is offline  
post #24 of 26 Old 07-12-2013, 08:32 PM
Newbie
 
shphotovideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Take a look at the Panasonic AC90
shphotovideo is offline  
post #25 of 26 Old 09-15-2013, 08:43 PM
Newbie
 
yur0k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
This video in my opinion, gives another thumbs up to Panasonic over Sony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gjVWdx10uY
Check the lights under the bridge - question is what color they supposed to be - blueish or greenish. This would be important for me.
yur0k is offline  
post #26 of 26 Old 09-15-2013, 08:45 PM
Newbie
 
yur0k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Someone mentioned that PJ790 does not have manual exposure control - in fact, it does.
yur0k is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off