Biggest Bargain Big-Sensor Compact Video Camera: The EOS-M at $299 (35mm f2) or $349 (28-88mm f3.5-5.6 IS Zoom) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 162 Old 07-17-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have a craving for big-sensor video (the 18 megapixel APS-C sensor is almost 3X that of the RX100 sensor and bigger than that of the GH3's sensor) and Canon color and shallow dof with full manual video controls - including manual audio - mic-in, interchangeable lenses for the whole Canon line, and pocketable with the pancake 35mm f2 then check out the Canon EOS-M.

When it came out last year it was expensive and had a really slow autofocus, and was ignored. Then last month it got a firmware upgrade that fixed the autofocus and then the price was lowered (just like the Panasonic LX7). Now it seems to be a very hot item.

It has all the same features as the Canon TS4i (700D) and bigger Canons, but it is small and mirrorless. The dedicated smaller-mount lenses get rave reviews, but with an adaptor it takes all Canon lenses with full auto-focus. 108030p at 45Mbps with wav audio (uncompressed!), 108024p, 72060p, etc. (yes, no 108060p).

Yes, $299 to get the same video as used in movies and on episodic TV! Low-light video; shallow dof (and moire too, just like the pros).

Here is link to a forum thread with size comparison picture:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51821520
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post #2 of 162 Old 07-17-2013, 01:38 PM
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and moire too, just like the pros LOL

mark, dont forget that magic lantern is also gonna work on this camera!
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post #3 of 162 Old 07-17-2013, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

and moire too, just like the pros LOL

mark, dont forget that magic lantern is also gonna work on this camera!

They already have an alpha version. It is really a full miniature Canon DSLR, without the drawbacks of a mirror and bulk.
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post #4 of 162 Old 07-18-2013, 05:40 AM
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Yes, at $299 the EOS-M deserves a second look. I have been recommending it at this price (making sure that people are aware of the caveat about moire and the lack of a viewfinder).

The Pentax K-01 is another ophaned "no-viewfinder" camera from a DSLR manufacturer that has been marked down below $300. Saw some schoolkids out shooting a narrative video with a bright yellow one recently smile.gif

Best,

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post #5 of 162 Old 07-19-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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A test video: visit to a dinosaur museum.

A museum with dinosaur bones, dioramas, and some live species on exhibit, besides the visitors. The museum is a dinosaur too - it has no windows or skylights and is really dimly lit. Grist for a big-sensor video camera (some shots were at 6400 ISO).

Shot using 1/60th shutter, 108030p, 'Standard' Picture Style with contrast down one notch. All but one indoor shot made with the 22mm f2.0 lens; outdoors uses the kit zoom.



Select 1080p for best results.
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post #6 of 162 Old 07-19-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

A test video: visit to a dinosaur museum.

A museum with dinosaur bones, dioramas, and some live species on exhibit, besides the visitors. The museum is a dinosaur too - it has no windows or skylights and is really dimly lit. Grist for a big-sensor video camera (some shots were at 6400 ISO).

Shot using 1/60th shutter, 108030p, 'Standard' Picture Style with contrast down one notch. All but one indoor shot made with the 22mm f2.0 lens; outdoors uses the kit zoom.



Select 1080p for best results.

It looks very good/very clear and dramatic-looking capture. I went back and looked at your LX7 museum video and it's not as sharp as the EOS M indoor footage. The LX7 looks more stable, though.

The 22mm is difficult to hold without that consequence. Many present-day TV and movies intentionally have that shake present in shots. So, I think viewers are accustomed to it. I'm hyper aware of that, though, owning one myself.

I've had the EOS M w/ 22mm since Monday/the sale. For video, I'm using a monopod with ball head and belt pouch. It's better than hand-held, but not completely stable. I've been transcoding the footage with 5D2RGB/freeware and the DNxHD codec. It helps with the grading in Vegas.

Another thing I've noticed about the M is close-up subjects with the blurred DOF look great, but shooting landscape really isn't any better than a camcorder.

Inside and out, it's a solid device/great build on this little camera. biggrin.gif
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post #7 of 162 Old 07-19-2013, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Smart to compare with the LX7 video - same museum. The LX7, of course, has a stabilizer for its whole zoom range, while the lens I used on the EOS-M (the f2 22mm) for this video is not stabilized. The kit lens (18-55mm) is stabilized, of course but its maximum f3.5 aperture is not ideal for dimly-lit settings (was used for the outdoors part).
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post #8 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 05:35 AM
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The reason there is a fire sale on this is it needs an adapter to use Canon DSLR lenses , has no built-in flash and the Sony NEX-3N is much smaller with standard 16-50 PZ OSS kit power zoom lens , has no adjustable angle LCD and the NEX-3N kills it at high iso. BTW the Sony also has a larger 1.5x crop APS-C sensor compared to the Canon 1.6x crop.











Canon EOS M vs Sony NEX-3N @ 12800 ISO click here to see 2560x1600 image
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post #9 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

The reason there is a fire sale on this is it needs an adapter to use Canon DSLR lenses , has not built-in flash and the Sony NEX-3N is much smaller with standard 16-50 PZ OSS kit power zoom lens , has no adjustable angle LCD and the NEX-3N kills it at high iso. BTW the Sony also has a larger 1.5x crop APS-C sensor compared to the Canon 1.6x crop.

Canon EOS M vs Sony NEX-3N @ 12800 ISO click here to see 2560x1600 image

They might be coming out with an EOS M2 and getting rid of inventory. We see this all the time on this board with Canon and other camcorders when new models are imminent.

From trying both the Sony and Canon, I can say the build quality is not comparable; the Sony feels like a toy whereas the Canon is a very impressively built camera.

The Canon also has a great touchscreen layout that can be seen outside. The Sony has no touchscreen and you have to navigate with the buttons to get through the menus and settings. I would not want to constantly have to change settings in that manner.

A better comparison might be one of the higher model NEX's with the metal body and touchscreen.
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post #10 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

The reason there is a fire sale on this is it needs an adapter to use Canon DSLR lenses , has not built-in flash and the Sony NEX-3N is much smaller with standard 16-50 PZ OSS kit power zoom lens , has no adjustable angle LCD and the NEX-3N kills it at high iso. BTW the Sony also has a larger 1.5x crop APS-C sensor compared to the Canon 1.6x crop.











Canon EOS M vs Sony NEX-3N @ 12800 ISO click here to see 2560x1600 image

I am surprised by this post. Remember when the LX7 was on "fire sale" and everyone speculated that it was inferior to the RX100 and that was why? This is the same unfounded speculation and Sony centrism.

The Sony 3n also needs a (much bigger) adaptor to use Sony alpha lenses and also maintain autofocus with those lenses.*
Its native lenses are e-mount not alpha. The EOS-M has its own native small M lenses (there are now three) and the small adaptor for the whole Canon lens line allows af and is and all electronic control for all the Canon lenses. Btw the tripod attachment on the adaptor in the top picture is removable (the camera has its own) - the adaptor is tiny.

The Sony 3n screen resolution is 1/2 that of the EOS-M; it is poor. Moreover it is not a touch-screen, so no focus pulls or easy precise focusing while shooting video. It shoots interlaced video (but also 24p like the EOS-M). The e-mount lenses are inferior in quality to the M-mount Canon lenses by a lot. No manual control of audio; no external mic-in input. Not even a hot shoe. It is crippled for video relative to the rest of the NEX line. This is a camcorder forum - anyone miss flash? It is true at 12800 ISO you will get a better still picture but the max ISO in video is 3200.



*And with the big alpha adaptor that allows full control of alpha lenses on a NEX (any NEX), in video the max aperture is f3.5. Yes, even if you have an alpha lens with an f1.4 aperture you cannot go below f3.5. With the tiny Canon, there is no such limitation - you can use an f1.4 lens wide open with full electronic control of aperture and focus in video.
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post #11 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 08:43 AM
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The NEX-3N has a much larger selection of native E mount lenses than the EOS M and could use 99% of the full frame and APS-C lenses out there using low cost adapters. It also works great with the PK-NEX Lens Turbo adapter that makes my PK lenses like my 50mm F1.4 work more like a 36mm F1.0.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1473630/new-sony-nex-3n-smallest-and-lightest-aps-c-nex-has-standard-16-50mm-24-75mm-ff-eqiv-power-zoom-lens-with-zoom-control-on-both-lens-and-camera





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post #12 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah, so now we see - you own a NEX 3n, so naturally it is better than the EOS-M! Those low-cost adaptors do NOT allow auto aperture and auto focus control from the camera on the big lenses, unlike the small Canon adaptor - that is a feature of all Canon lenses made in the last 15 years or so. The EOS-M also has built-in the correction parameters for almost all the Canon lenses - it automatically recognizes the lens attached and corrects for barrel distortion, vignetting, etc. The electronic connection via the adaptor is complete.

The NEX-3n is fine, and like the EOS-M gives you a small camera with a big sensor and interchangeable lens capability. There are more E-mounts than M-mounts now, because the EOS-M is just a year old, but the full Canon lens line can be used on the EOS-M with the same capability as any Canon DSLR - full auto focus and auto exposure (or manual if you want) with no aperture limitation.

The Sony NEX 3n is a viable alternative (I had a NEX 5n). But please - it is not obviously better (especially if you care about audio and focus pulls) and it is not helpful to cherry pick features to tout a camera (built-in flash! wow!). Another alternative is the Nikon V1.
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post #13 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 04:40 PM
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Whatever floats your boat but the NEX-3N works for me since I already had a myriad of lenses for my E mount full frame NEX-VG900 including the 16-50 PZ OSS & 55-210mm OSS NEX lenses and picked up a new NEX-3N body only for $180 . So if you have a bunch of Canon DSLR lenses then with the EF-EOS M adapter your all set and now we are both happy, enjoy.
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post #14 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Whatever floats your boat but the NEX-3N works for me since I already had a myriad of lenses for my E mount full frame NEX-VG900 including the 16-50 PZ OSS & 55-210mm OSS NEX lenses and picked up a new NEX-3N body only for $180 . So if you have a bunch of Canon DSLR lenses then with the EF-EOS M adapter your all set and now we are both happy, enjoy.

I agree - that was my point. smile.gif
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post #15 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 05:13 PM
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Mark, I tried stabilizing the EOS M/22mm with the Canon neck strap by wearing on neck, holding arms/the camera out with the strap extended/taut in front of me and/or resting arms/elbows on body then extended strap in a similar way.

It seemed to work, but was a very windy day, so inconclusive at the moment.

You may want to give it a try.
If you haven't already, the strap is connected by placing on the hooks then using a coin to tighten/line up the white marks to lock it on.
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post #16 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by xfws View Post

Mark, I tried stabilizing the EOS M/22mm with the Canon neck strap by wearing on neck, holding arms/the camera out with the strap extended/taut in front of me and/or resting arms/elbows on body then extended strap in a similar way.

It seemed to work, but was a very windy day, so inconclusive at the moment.

You may want to give it a try.
If you haven't already, the strap is connected by placing on the hooks then using a coin to tighten/line up the white marks to lock it on.

Thanks. I have the strap on; will indeed give it a try. I do not want to attract attention when I shoot, so an issue is whether this will look odd.
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post #17 of 162 Old 07-20-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Thanks. I have the strap on; will indeed give it a try. I do not want to attract attention when I shoot, so an issue is whether this will look odd.

I hear you. I think holding the arms/elbows against the sides of body and having the strap out tight probably won't look much different than just holding the camera.
Maybe it would have to be shortened a bit
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post #18 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 01:37 AM
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I'd be interested in hearing how the videos of both Canon EOS M and Sony Nex 5r/5n/6 compare - with regards to color, resolution, fluidity of movement. How about the compression?

Mark, you have been so much into 60FPS, but it seems that Canon's 30FPS do not bother you. I can see Canon offers a decent camera with a very cheap price tag, but is it better than Sony? Stills do not seem to confirm it (judging from the photos jogiba posted).
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post #19 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 05:55 AM
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Here is a cool video test of the EOS M with 22mm and external mic :


two more :




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post #20 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Neat videos. Thanks.

On the Sony NEX and EOS video specs:

Sony goes strictly AVCHD: up to 18060p on the top models(not 3n) at a maximum 28Mbps, with very heavy compression, High Profile (CABAC, etc.) and compressed audio (AC3). Canon goes for gentler compression and a much higher bitrate - averaging 45Mbps for 108030p. The audio is uncompressed PCM. Sony does not allow manual audio control and there is no external mic input. Canon has fine manual control of audio, and even a defeatable limiter (not the same as AGC) along with an external mic input. (both do 108024p; Sony at max 24 Mbps; Canon at 45Mbps). The EOS-M can also shoot 72060p, @ 45Mbps, for sports action (no 72060p option for Sony).

The Canon video is thus more professionally-oriented. The Canon video "look" is customizable: There are 'Picture Styles" that can be modified and downloaded, just the same as their top-of-the line cameras. All of this does not necessarily make the Canon video better (the audio is much better). The amazing thing is the little EOS-M has the same audio, video and still capabilities as their big APS-C DSLRs (same exact 18 MP sensor and Digic 5 processor), and takes the same Canon lenses with no limitations. I do not think most people agree that Canon DSLR still pictures (same as the EOS-M delivers) are inferior to those from Sony, except at very high ISO's.

At $299 ($349), an incredible deal.
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post #21 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Here is a cool video test of the EOS M with 22mm and external mic :


two more :




I don't know what voodoo that guy is using, but my videos don't look that good (yet). :/
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post #22 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony NEX 5N and EOS-M Video Comparison: You asked for it!


Shutter-priority mode for each (1/60th), 18-55mm kit lens on each. The first in each sequence is always the NEX followed by the EOS-M. Both cameras used spot autofocus.

The NEX video was shot using 108060p at 28Mbps (AVCHD). The EOS-M video was shot using 108030p at 48Mbps (MOV). Video rendered using Sony Vegas Pro at 108030p, 26 Mbps, MP4. One after the other.


Select 1080p.

Now I remember why I gave up on the NEX for video: apart from the softness and color and bad audio, you will see its main fault: it cannot hold focus in many cases (see the purple vertical flowers, the rose, and the bird feeder - the EOS-M version will show you what was supposed to be in focus). And you will see the stabilization on the EOS-M kit zoom is much better than that of the NEX too. And you will hear how bad undefeatable AGC audio is - the NEX makes soft sounds really loud.

Maybe the later versions are better (NEX 5R), but I doubt it.
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post #23 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 03:24 PM
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Thanks for the side-by-side, Mark. Very helpful - and underlines what a great deal the EOS M is at $299.

What I am finding, over time, is that higher bit rates (and superior video processing) generally win.

Hmmm. Wonder what it looks like compared to 1080/60p 50mbps .MOV from the $1000+ GH3? smile.gif

Best,

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post #24 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Thanks for the side-by-side, Mark. Very helpful - and underlines what a great deal the EOS M is at $299.

What I am finding, over time, is that higher bit rates (and superior video processing) generally win.

Hmmm. Wonder what it looks like compared to 1080/60p 50mbps .MOV from the $1000+ GH3? smile.gif

Best,

Bill
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By Request: Panasonic GH3 and Canon EOS-M Video Comparison



This time it's much more equally matched:


Select 1080p.

Shutter-priority mode for each (1/60th), 18-55mm kit lens on the EOS-M (shot at 55mm=88mm, 35mm-equivalent); the 45-175mm lens on the GH3 (shot at 45mm=90mm). The first in the sequence is always the GH3. Both cameras used spot autofocus.

The GH3 video was shot using 108060p IPB at 50Mbps (MOV). The EOS-M video was shot using 108030p at 48Mbps (MOV). Video rendered using Sony Vegas Pro at 108030p, 26 Mbps, MP4.
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post #25 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 03:52 PM
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Never used the 5N, but its focus system is COMPLETELY different from the 5R. COMPLETELY! The 5N uses the old focus system from the NEX line. It ended with the NEX-6. Now the new models have a different system with nem firmwares.

When I use auto focus with my 5R I dont have problems, although I think that manual focus is much more fun for videos, specially for subjects like yours.

The NEX has a video resolution of 700x700 and the canon 650x700

And if you dont like the softness and color you can always tweak it, in camera or (better) in post.

As you can see the lumma graphic is crushed on the NEX, so you DONT HAVE REAL BLACKS OR WHITES.





I see no advantages in the canon. And dont get me wrong, I like it, but you sound like the canon is a much better camera, and its not!
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post #26 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The EOS-M is much better than the NEX-5N, as is evident in the video and in my extensive experience with it. Thanks for the info on the NEX-R, which I did not compare. I am glad they upgraded the auto focus, which was astonishingly bad.

The EOS-M is much cheaper than the NEX-5R, so if its quality is comparable that is news (has Sony allowed manual control of audio yet in the NEX line (no)? provided an input for non-proprietary external regular mics (no)?). Audio is critical for video. Non-defeatable AGC audio might be ok for a P&S, but is inexcusable for a serious video camera.

You simply cannot do manual focus in bright sunlight with an lcd screen *handheld*. In fact, spot focus using the finger on the screen to point to what should be in focus does better than manual focus (the EOS-M does have magnified focus (10x or 5X), but no focus peaking except using ML).

Flower videos are just for comparison. Real videos have people and events.
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post #27 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

By Request: Panasonic GH3 and Canon EOS-M Video Comparison

This time it's much more equally matched:

You really deliver.

I appreciate the GH3/EOS M comparison as I can see the quality is comparable at a way lower price.
I'm favoring the EOS M image. I don't think it's owner-bias, but am wondering if you used a picture style on the M?
EOS seems to have more contrast, the GH3 flatter.

The GH3 probably has the EOS M beat as an all around video device with more physical controls and, due to its size alone, could be presented as part of a professional rig.

But I'm pleased to see the similarities in the images.
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post #28 of 162 Old 07-21-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I used in this case for the M the 'Standard' Picture Style with contrast down one notch. For more saturation and contrast, there is 'Landscape' (though you can tweak sat, con, sharp individually within each picture style). Canon also supplies some additional picture styles you can upload into the camera (e.g., Cine X, Autumn). I am planning to compare the different Styles (Neutral, Faithful, etc.).

It looks like one could mix EOS-M and GH3 clips in one film with few tweaks.
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post #29 of 162 Old 07-22-2013, 10:29 AM
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It looks like some received the EOS M 22mm $299 deal from B&H with the 90EX flash included.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51842799
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post #30 of 162 Old 07-22-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The EOS-M is much better than the NEX-5N, as is evident in the video and in my extensive experience with it. Thanks for the info on the NEX-R, which I did not compare. I am glad they upgraded the auto focus, which was astonishingly bad.

The EOS-M is much cheaper than the NEX-5R, so if its quality is comparable that is news (has Sony allowed manual control of audio yet in the NEX line (no)? provided an input for non-proprietary external regular mics (no)?). Audio is critical for video. Non-defeatable AGC audio might be ok for a P&S, but is inexcusable for a serious video camera.

You simply cannot do manual focus in bright sunlight with an lcd screen *handheld*. In fact, spot focus using the finger on the screen to point to what should be in focus does better than manual focus (the EOS-M does have magnified focus (10x or 5X), but no focus peaking except using ML).

Flower videos are just for comparison. Real videos have people and events.

SONY advantages:

- bigger sensor
- less pixels
- 60fps
- higher resolution video
- focus peaking

CANON advantages:

- better audio (?) - (I know nothing about audio, since I never use the original in-camera audio)


* You have a canon with the latest firmware. Does your 5N has the latest one? The canon may be a LITTLE bit better focusing in video mode, but in picture mode, even with the latest firmware, it is BAD!

* Manual focus is quite easy once you get the hang of it. I use lenses with no OIS and manual focus in my NEX and my videos look good. In bright sunlight I use focus peaking and sometimes an LCD viewfinder. It makes it bigger, but its great for stabilization.

* The EOS M is not a cheap camera. You just bought it in the right moment because it wasn't selling well.

* I cant see in your comparison how the canon is THAT much better. The focus (in your video) is better? Yes! What else? The canon loses a lot of detail in dark areas because of the high contrast. I think you are being fooled by in-camera processing. The canon video is more pleasing because it has more color, contrast and sharpening, but thats just processing. You can do the same with the sony.

but dont get me wrong, the canon is a great camera for those who want an APS in their pocket, but its not that better than the others. For that price though, it is the one to get
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