RED EPIC DRAGON Eye candy ! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 08-09-2013, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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It's funny how remarks by guys with big buck pro cameras are not that much different from guys with consumer grade cameras.biggrin.gif
Quote:
Is Dragon better than 65mm Film…. (with good lenses) YES. No ****…
The images out of the Dragon are so smooth now… so so smooth, like low asa large format film.

The Dragon is more stable than my current MX EPIC's.

The SONY F65 I rate as having the best sensor in the market for a production cine camera. Yes.. it's better than the EPIC- MX. (I'm not going to harp on about the size of it or the price comparisons).
Even Jim knows that Sony have done very well with the F65 sensor and that was obviously pissing him off, because his new Dragon sensor has just given the the F65 notice.
All the F65 SONY purists out there will dispute this. But I have Sony files here with me, and I'm looking at both side by side… and Dragons grain (noise) structure is cleaner and it has more range.
Dragon is now the King. (AND… I'm not going to harp on about the size of it or the price comparisons). or did I ..ha !

The single one sentence i can say that can sum up everything is this..
It's the first camera ever that I have used that captures exactly what I see with my own eye.
Never have I seen this before. !





ACQUISITION FORMATS

6K RAW (2:1, 2.4:1)
5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)
4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
1080p RGB (16:9)
720p RGB (16:9)
PROJECT FRAME RATES
23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 47.96, 48, 50, 59.94 fps, all resolutions

1-100 fps 6K
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K 

1-150 fps
4K 
1-200 fps
3K 
1-300 fps 2K



http://www.red.com/products/epic-dragon
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post #2 of 60 Old 08-09-2013, 09:01 PM
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If only they had a consumer version!!
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post #3 of 60 Old 08-10-2013, 01:07 PM
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That dynamic range is simply beautiful. They haven't made it too clear which Scarlets can be upgraded to a Scarlet Dragon. Forget Epic Dragon. Scarlet Dragon is PLENTY good enough. Not to mention 20+ stops of dynamic range with HDR-x. :eek However, I'm confused about the Scarlet Dragon upgrade path. I'm not sure if you can go to their site, order the current Scarlet and it be eligible for the Dragon upgrade of if the Scarlet had to be purchased within a certain period of time. If it's eligible I may have to consider taking out a personal loan. lol. biggrin.gif
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post #4 of 60 Old 08-10-2013, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Dragon misconceptions and clarification...
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Let’s see if we can clear up some Dragon misconceptions.

1. The native Dragon sensor clearly shows 18+ stops shot on our Frankie test bed last December which was posted. Obviously, we were excited out of our skull. Stuffing the sensor’s capability into an electronics package the size of a matchbox always causes loss of performance. That is why we stuck with 3-4 stops of improvement over the EPIC MX. We always measure dynamic range with the engineering definition… as do most others. We said repeatedly 16 stops for EPIC Dragon, which is more than any other digital cinema camera. We stick by this statement… even though we see continuing improvements over time, just as we have always done. For free.

2. If you want 20 stops of dynamic range… shoot EPIC Dragon HDRx 4.

3. We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa. While it does soften roll off, we think the user should have control of that aspect of the image. Add a 1/4 LowCon and match that characteristic if you like it. Since many seem to be lost on this point, we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. Maybe someone should make a post filter?

4. I recently posted that the Dragon was “insert the highest superlative known to man here”. Of course I have taken a lot of flack for being a hype-monster over this quote (and a few others). Maybe that moniker is well deserved… or maybe I’m just being proud of the team’s real accomplishments. You make the call. In defensive of my statement, which I will reiterate now, I offer the following:

The Dragon has more native dynamic range than any motion capture camera ever made as measured by the standard engineering definition… signal to noise ratio. And it does it with the least amount of noise.

The Dragon outputs more measured resolution than any motion capture camera. That includes a 4K scan of 65mm film or the Sony F65. Notice I didn’t say captured resolution… I said measured resolution.

The Dragon shoots 100fps at 6K. Good, cheap and fast. Pick all three.

The color depth of the Dragon was increased to 16 bit. New Graeme color science. Skin tones.

We have a thousand knobs to turn to extract more performance from the Dragon’s electronic package, just as we did with the RED ONE and EPIC MX. You remember, it was a “new camera for free” several times. If you are not familiar with this… ask any long term RED customer.

The Dragon is an upgrade to EPIC… one of the smallest, lightest and most accessorized cameras in the cinema industry. You don’t have to buy a new camera to get Dragon.

You can shoot REDCODE RAW on Dragon at an incredibly high compression ratio and get incredible results. That means your SSDs are not obsolete. You really want to shoot uncompressed or RGB?

Now… if you want to debate a single point, feel free. Then I would ask you to look at the total package above and tell me why I can’t retire tomorrow having delivered what was promised… for less than $10K.

My goal when I started RED was to make the best camera in the world. The most important showcase for image capture is the motion picture industry. Check.

I am old. I am tired. I started Oakley 38 years ago. RED 7 years ago. In both cases my goal was to make a difference. To declare war on conventional thinking. Inventions wrapped in art. Dedicated to purpose beyond reason. Thermonuclear Protection.

I have had the chance to work with the most incredible people for so many years… both at Oakley and at RED. Too many people to mention… except one. Jarred Land. To release the Dragon with my closest buddy is a dream come true. I really don’t think I can ever top it. We’ll see.

God love us all.

Jim
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103853-Dragon-misconceptions-and-clarification&highlight=SCARLET+DRAGON

Quote:
Sign in to see if your SCARLET-X MYSTERIUM-X is eligible for an upgrade to a SCARLET-X RED DRAGON camera. Get all the dynamic range and new color science of the Dragon sensor with a max framerate of 5K 60fps.

You will be responsible for shipping your SCARLET-X brain, DSMC SIDE SSD MODULE 1.8", and lens mount or front cap to our RED Irvine facility. Once we receive your package, you will be sent an email from RED informing you of the status of your camera. If you sign in and are unable to select your camera, your account may not yet be available for the SCARLET-X RED DRAGON upgrade.

If you purchase the SCARLET-X RED DRAGON upgrade, you may buy a RED ROCKET-X for $4,495. Simply add RED ROCKET-X to your cart and the discount will be automatically applied.


Upgrades estimated to begin September 2013.
http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-upgrade
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post #5 of 60 Old 08-10-2013, 08:19 PM
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thats ridiculously awesome

I just want to live enough to have a camera with those specs in my pocket biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 60 Old 08-10-2013, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

I just want to live enough to have a camera with those specs in my pocket

How many years do you have?
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post #7 of 60 Old 08-10-2013, 10:13 PM
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im on my early 20's smile.gif
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post #8 of 60 Old 08-11-2013, 06:20 AM
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The people over at Panavision, Arriflex and Sony must be tearing their hair out. The tech disruption of the motion picture camera industry by people like RED's Jim Jennard and Grant Petty of Blackmagic appears to be as profound as the tech disruption caused by the personal computer - starting with the MITS Altair 8800 about 38 years ago.

That revolution pretty much destroyed the DEC/Xerox/IBM minicomputer and led to the powerful computers on our laps and in our pockets - so thedest may get his wish by the time he's 60 smile.gif

Incidentally, Elon Musk is doing the same thing to the automobile and space launch industries - although we'll probably never carry our cars or our spaceships in our pockets.

Exciting times to be alive, even for geezers like me and Sprague smile.gif

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
Please follow us at HCR and circle us on Google Plus
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post #9 of 60 Old 08-11-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I think in the future many video cameras will have sensors with 8K video and 8K stills . Even today the RED Epic Dragon would take great 19mp 6K stills at up to 100FPS.

Quote:
Shoot 8K on the Sony F65 with a Future Firmware Update
http://nofilmschool.com/2012/11/shooting-8k-f65-firmware-update-sony-xavc-codec/
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post #10 of 60 Old 08-11-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

im on my early 20's smile.gif
You have a better chance of making it than me. FWIW, there is some other "Eye Candy" stuff that you should be playing with in your 20s besides cameras.
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post #11 of 60 Old 08-11-2013, 09:18 AM
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My girlfriend is my favourite model biggrin.gif:D:D

Although sometimes she gets jealous of how much I like cameras lol
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post #12 of 60 Old 08-19-2013, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Jim Jannard's ( RED Digital Cinema founder) final post:
Quote:
The Dragon is an Obsolescence Obsolete upgrade. More resolution. More dynamic range. More color depth. And it is an upgrade.

Somehow... I read on CML and other idiotic forums, that I an a hypester, a scam artist. I just have to wonder what these guys are smoking. But I have to say... they have gotten to me. I don't need this. I don't deserve this. Life is short and I am tired.

I can only hope that the incredibly stupid posts from people like Geoff Boyle and Art Adams (many other CML posters) do not in any way taint the work we have actually done.

With the release of the Dragon sensor... I have finished my mission. I am done posting. I will no longer be the face of RED. Mercifully, Jarred will take my place and he is worthy times forever. Jarred is me... only 30 years younger.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?104367-My-Final-Post
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post #13 of 60 Old 08-20-2013, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

I think in the future many video cameras will have sensors with 8K video and 8K stills. Even today the RED Epic Dragon would take great 19mp 6K stills at up to 100FPS.

This is probably true. The sooner the better.
Quote:
Quote:
Shoot 8K on the Sony F65 with a Future Firmware Update
http://nofilmschool.com/2012/11/shooting-8k-f65-firmware-update-sony-xavc-codec/
This kind of hype from Sony is what gives resolution numbers a bad reputation.

What gives the quality of higher resolution is the higher resolution sensor in the camera that is able to capture and resolve imagery by "dividing" the captured objects into "smaller squares", preferably with a sensor that has more pixels than the intended output resolution of the finishing edit.

When Sony use a 6K~20MP sensor that use 17,6MP part of the sensor for active image capture and claim it is 8K (=33MP) or can be a "true 8K camera" just by a firmware upgrade we know that something doesn't add up.
A 20 megapixel sensor can in no way resolve anything close to what a 33 megapixel sensor can.
Its active pixel area of 17,6 pixel is about half the pixels of the 33 megapixels of a 8K format.

What Sony does is to take the 20MP sensor (17,6 active capture pixels), do a marketing pixel count in a way that if everybody counted pixels that way there would be a lot of "8k cameras".
Then they apply a Pixel-Shift process technology in the new Firmware in the same way they have done on "HD" video cameras that often doesn't have a real resolution HD sensor, and end up with a "8K" claim that in no way is even close to the minimum required 33 Megapixel that is the basic foundation on the term 8K.

This is the truth of the Sony F65 8K pixel count claim before the latest firmware upgrade. The F65 has not gotten a new sensor with the new firmware; http://camerarentalz.com/sony-f65-6k-sensor/

So Sony already now starts to dilute the understanding of what minimum resolving quality a 8K digital motion camera should have, before the time comes when Real 8K digital motion cameras will be made, and that just for being able to do some promotional hype for a camera that should be able to stand for its own real merits.
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post #14 of 60 Old 08-20-2013, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Since Sony already showed their 8K TV I am sure the next upgrade to the F65 will have 8K.




Quote:
Mar 7, 2012

Join Adorama Rental Company's Digital Cinema Director, Daniel Gurzi, as he introduces us to the main features of the revolutionary 8K Pro Digital Cinema camera from Sony.

This camera is currently being used to shoot the latest M. Night Shyamalan film.
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post #15 of 60 Old 08-20-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Since Sony already showed their 8K TV I am sure the next upgrade to the F65 will have 8K.
Sony (or any other camera manufacturer sans Red) doesn't upgrade their cameras with new sensors like Red does. They make new camera models and sell them for full price.

Only Red has "Obsolescence Obsolete" as part of their camera development strategy.

The video is miss-marked.
The 85" 8K TV prototype is made by Sharp and is displaying NHK 8K test material. The prototype was made back in 2010 or 2011 for monitoring and presentation of NHK's 8K video tests.
http://www.fonearena.com/tech/tv-2/sharp-85-inch-8k-tv-and-70-inch-4k-tv-with-moth-view-eyes-on-photo-gallery/3738/
Sony hasn't made or shown a 8K TV.

NHK have been using a couple of "8K" cameras that are made up of three 4K CMOS sensors with pixel-shift to get 8K. This was last used for the 8K tests at the London Olympics last summer.
NHK (with Astrodesign) has now a real 8K camera with a 8K single (small size) CMOS sensor which they use for further tests towards World Cup in Football in Brazil next summer.
This is the only real 8K sensor in a motion camera that we know of.

Both IMAX and Panavision are working on digital cameras. Rumours are that one or both will have a 8K sensor, or use the pixel-shift to make "8K".

The Adorama guy is just uncritical repeating Sony's deceptive an misleading representation of the F65 technical specifications.

.
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post #16 of 60 Old 08-20-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Compact 8K camera :
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post #17 of 60 Old 08-21-2013, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Compact 8K camera :

That's the new camera I mentioned.
Small sensor of 25mm which is slightly larger than a Four Thirds sensor (21.63mm diagonal).

A collaboration between NHK and Astrodesign and a H.265 encoder by Mitsubishi.

Notice that this camera is not directly comparable to big sensor cinema cameras from Red, Sony and Canon which are roughly 1.5x - 2x larger, but fit better in comparison with Broadcast video cameras which are not very usable for cinematic content.
This is one reason nobody have made 4K broadcast cameras yet because they expect to go directly to 8K for future broadcast systems.

Hope we hear more about this at IBC in September.
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post #18 of 60 Old 08-22-2013, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Another RED EPIC Dragon test video:
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post #19 of 60 Old 09-27-2013, 06:02 AM
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https://vimeo.com/74358938

 

Probably the 1st ever short film shot on the Dragon

 

And some tech info, for those interested in image breakdowns…

 

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?105573-Sweet&p=1259888&viewfull=1#post1259888

 

 

Best

 

Gunleik Groven

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post #20 of 60 Old 03-03-2014, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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The 6K Red Dragon is making big news today on photography sites !
Quote:
Over the past few years, DxOMark's tests and scores have provided a numerical measure for the Raw image quality potential of cameras. They've therefore been debated at some length by enthusiasts looking to see where their favourite model stands in the rankings. Now there's a new DxOMark Sensor score champion, but perhaps surprisingly, the first camera to break the 100-point barrier isn't a full frame model from Nikon or Sony, but the RED Epic Dragon movie camera. How did it manage that?
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/03/red-epic-dragon-jumps-to-top-of-dxomark-sensor-charts-with-score-of-101?utm_campaign=internal-link-list_0_1

Quote:
While the results and quality of output from this specially-adapted Epic Dragon are awesome, it’s all the more extraordinary, considering the sensor size and pixel pitch. It’s hard to imagine anyone being disappointed by the Dragon’s performance (except maybe at extremely high ISO).

Given the Epic Dragon’s price tag, this camera isn’t for everyone, but it will appeal to those that demand the most nuanced color and with widest possible dynamic range.

More importantly, the ability to choose a high quality still photo from a movie sequence will be invaluable to time-pressured imaging professionals, in the studio or elsewhere. While this will take some time to filter down to consumer level HD-DSLRs, this new technology just may forever change the way both footage and stills are shot in the future.

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/RED-Epic-Dragon-review-First-camera-to-break-the-100-point-DxOMark-sensor-score-barrier/Conclusion
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post #21 of 60 Old 03-03-2014, 02:52 PM
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That's amazing! And even more amazing when you consider that the Dragon's sensor is roughly half the area of a full frame stills sensor.
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post #22 of 60 Old 03-03-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I bet today is the first time many photographers heard of the RED EPIC DRAGON.


http://www.red.com/news/dxo-crowns-red-dragon-with-highest-sensor-score-ever

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post #23 of 60 Old 03-03-2014, 04:18 PM
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Just want to add, that this test which is a stills sensor comparison test, didn't use a new RAW debayer development tool Red released a Beta build in the Redcine-X software on Friday, which increase the image quality considerably.
For the time being just for development of stills extraction, but will later be available for motion.
Quote:
A.D.D. ( Advanced Dragon Debayer ) is a new hyper-debayer algorithm for Dragon that spends a ton of time analyzing every single pixel and creating the best frame possible.

It doesn't pull any punches, it processes everything at the highest degree possible and squeezes out every last ounce buried deep inside Dragon R3Ds.

It is incredibly expensive computationally... each frame will take seconds to process. The results are absolutely phenomenal.

For all you guys using the Dragon to pull stills from motion, it truly can't be beat.
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post #24 of 60 Old 03-04-2014, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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6K vs 5K vs 4K vs 2K vs 1080p


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post #25 of 60 Old 03-07-2014, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a 2160p 4K youtube video shot with the RED DRAGON .
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post #26 of 60 Old 03-07-2014, 10:35 PM
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That is the kind of quality I want to see in my camera!! smile.gif
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post #27 of 60 Old 03-07-2014, 10:45 PM
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Red makes amazing gear.
I'm close to picking up a used One.
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post #28 of 60 Old 03-08-2014, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Here is a 2160p 4K youtube video shot with the RED DRAGON .
Note that this was filmed on a prototype Dragon back in October 2013 and processed with pre-Dragon Redcine-X.
It has improved quite a bit since then with new Firmware, new Redcine-X, new OLPF that gives smoother skin, less noise and less flare prone.
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post #29 of 60 Old 03-08-2014, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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post #30 of 60 Old 03-08-2014, 07:20 AM
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More eye candy; Lamborghini Huracan commercial Shot on Dragon.
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