4K 12bit-RAW 60 frames camera - its cheap and it fits in your pocket! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 08-16-2013, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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One more good example of how stupid we are as consumers and how mother ******** ******* ******* companies are for holding back technology just to make more money.

I had the chance to play with a tiny mirrorless camera yesterday. Its a friends camera. Its a Nikon V1, and he bought it for like 300 USD.

To my surprise I saw that the camera has a curious burst mode. It outputs 60 or 30 frames in 4K 12-bit RAW. How amazing is that?

Its not a camera for serious work, but for casual shooters thats great fun! And you can make movies using my favourite shooting technique. Frame first - make a short cut.

VIDEO EXAMPLES

https://vimeo.com/61441075

https://vimeo.com/69594975

https://vimeo.com/67656132

https://vimeo.com/70959751

Damn I want to buy a new camera every day
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post #2 of 18 Old 08-16-2013, 11:28 AM
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What can be offered is determined by buffer size, data transfer rates and sensor stability. You can shoot stuff outside of a camera's specifications, but then it is potentially unreliable and may shorten the lifetime of the camera.

When a manufacturer offers a camera for sale, they have to be reasonably sure that it will operate reliably within specification and will not be subject to service returns. If they were to enable to something like, say, RAW recording, the camera potentially could frequently malfunction and produce problematic output that the general population is not equipped to handle. Then they would be accused of putting out a shoddy product and false advertising. That is why the official operating specification falls well short of what the camera is capable of if pushed.
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-16-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been playing a lot with canon RAW videos, and I have not heard of anyone having problems.

I have no doubts that technology is being held back by big companies. Thats why cameras like the blackmagic can make such a hype - because some companies dare to defy the market logic.

You sound like a Canon busisnessman trying to justify the unjustifiable

A tiny mirrorless that can make small 4k RAW videos? I imagine what the big boys can do. Not a few days ago a famous hacker showed a code line hidden in a Nikon DSLR that can lead to unlimited RAW video recording. If it works, it will probably work better than in the canons, because the Nikons have less hardware limitations, from the lower end to the high end cameras.
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post #4 of 18 Old 08-16-2013, 01:47 PM
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I like Canon (especially its lenses) and the EOS M (manual audio and external mic, yay!), but, even ignoring the RAW stuff, what other than corporate laziness or short-sightedness led them to not implement focus-peaking or live histogram or zebra stripes, or temperature-choice WB, that the ML guys working in their spare time could implement without even changing the firmware? How would they endanger the camera?

The question now is whether MagicLantern tweaks will encourage Canon (or Nikon or Sony or Panasonic ) to do more themselves, or let them off the hook.

It seems like the Panasonic GH3 was a positive response by Panasonic to the hacking of the GH2, which then attracted that camera to a new group of customers - video folks - who were then catered to in the new model.
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-17-2013, 12:20 AM
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It is not laziness. The camera's you talk about are still cameras first and foremost. Video is just an extra, and consequently it is implemented conservatively on the hardware.

Btw, the BM cameras are essentially just sensors in a box. They are way over priced for what they do.
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post #6 of 18 Old 08-17-2013, 04:16 AM
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I have to agree with Mark and thedest. But I don't think it is all laziness - it is strategic. Canon is doing what smart companies do - allowing the competition to do its market research, and then following them with better marketing and distribution and selling more cameras.

Canon could have put video autofocus, the swivel screen and crop mode in the Rebel line earlier, for example, but waited until Panasonic (and Nikon, to a lesser extent) showed that consumers wanted these features - then gradually eased them into the T3i, T4i and T5i.

These features were not withheld to protect consumers, they were withheld to maximize profit and minimize risk.

We will see this same pattern with RAW and 4K, I predict. Canon will eventually bring RAW down from the C500, 4K down from the 1D C, and high bit rate recording and the anti-moire filter down from the 5D Mark III into their consumer and prosumer lines - but only after Blackmagic, Panasonic and the hackers show the C suite at Canon that there is a mass market for these features

Maximizing profit and minimizing risk is in the job description of every Canon senior executive (and, to be fair, every senior executive in every publicly held company). Making still/video hybrid camera enthusiasts like us happy is not smile.gif

Best,

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post #7 of 18 Old 08-17-2013, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

..Btw, the BM cameras are essentially just sensors in a box. They are way over priced for what they do.

Hi Tugela - I am a little confused by this assertion. In fact, the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera is the only camera that records direct to 220mbps ProRes with 13 stops of DR straight out of the box below $2000. It is a little more than a sensor in a box - and well worth its $995 price, in my view.

Its big brother, the $1995 Blackmagic Cinema Camera, shoots projection quality 2.5K RAW with 13 stops of DR straight out of the box - and comes bundled with $900 worth of free DaVinci Resolve software. Again, pretty darned good value for money.

To get similar resolution, dynamic range and bitrates from Sony or Canon would cost a lot more.

Cheers,

Bill
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post #8 of 18 Old 08-17-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

It is not laziness. The camera's you talk about are still cameras first and foremost. Video is just an extra, and consequently it is implemented conservatively on the hardware.

Btw, the BM cameras are essentially just sensors in a box. They are way over priced for what they do
.

Over priced? Really. You're way over simplifying it. If it were that easy to just throw a sensor in a box everyone would be doing it. If anything they're highly under priced; Not sure how a $995 pocket cinema camera and the $1,995 2.5k model that includes nearly $2k in free software, both having 13 stops of dynamic range and 12-bit color are way "overpriced" for cameras that can cut well with a $60,000 Arri Alexa? Damn, we've becomes so spoiled. lol. rolleyes.gifcool.gif Until BlackMagic you couldn't even shoot 2.5k or even 480p RAW with such dynamic range for even under $16,000. Red Scarlet-X was the only other choice. We should be thanking our lucky stars for them coming in and revolutionizing the industry, because they will be the reason things change so fast. Unless people would rather continue paying thousands for highly compressed 8-bit video 4:2:0 color with minor gradual yearly upgrades for decades to come by giant corporations looking to milk their lines to protect their higher end lines.. BMD and ML hackers put things into high gear.
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-17-2013, 04:10 PM
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BM is not a camera company, their core business has been producing studio equipment supporting the acquisition of video data. If you look at their product catalog that is what the vast majority of their products are. The cameras are recent, I would guess because they saw a niche in the prosumer market other companies were not exploiting. What they have done is leveraged their experience with gadget manufacturing by taking a generic sensor and sticking it in a gadget. They do not develop sensors or image processors, like the specialist camera companies. The sensors they are using are generic camera sensors (which they probably buy from one of the multinationals, like Sony) coupled with a cooling solution and a data interface. That is basically it. There is either no image processor, or a very basic one, unlike what you would find in any of the pro/consumer models from other manufacturers, which significantly reduce the cost. Instead, that function is offloaded to post.

The sensors on any one of Sony or Canon's cameras could do what the BMPCC does. Even the point and shoots. That reflects the true price point where these camera's should be at. A basic DSLR body in the case of CC, and a point and shoot in the case of the PCC. Sony, Canon et al don't produce products dedicated to raw output because they don't see a significant market there (honestly, we are talking about a small segment of advanced enthusiasts). Raw output compromises the design for the mass market, which mostly doesn't care about RAW, so that is why it isn't there.

If it turns out that there is enough of a market, rest assured that companies like Sony, Canon, Panasonic, JVC and all the rest will produce products for it, and those products will probably be a lot better and more advanced than anything BM can do.

This sort of thing won't happen right now, but 4k products in the consumer market are around the corner and we can expect video cameras that support that to start flooding the market in the next year or two.
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post #10 of 18 Old 08-18-2013, 04:50 PM
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This first clip has plenty of flicker.

Q1: does the V1 have manually adjustable shutter speed so the 180deg shutter rule can be applied ? - ie, to avoid flicker ?

frame blending in post can also reduce flicker.

And, the last few seconds are very noisy - I suggest this is because of the tiny sensor of the V1

once again, the still frames should have been batched through NOISEWARE first.

Q2: does the burst mode support RAW ? - as jpeg never denoises properly.
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post #11 of 18 Old 08-18-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Those videos were made by amateurs. If you know how to work with videos, you can imagine the results you can achieve wink.gif

You can choose RAW, RAW+JPEG or JPEG only.

The V1 only shoots those bursts in P mode, so if you want to control your shutter speed for better motion you have to use ND filters. I think, at the moment, that the V2 is the way to go

The V2 supports full manual control in burst mode, and now it can take more frames per second, it writes all of the RAWs in just a few seconds and the resolution is 4.5 or 4.7k, something like that. REALLY amazing!! eek.gif

I really like that comparison.

In the first video you can see the original 1080p video from the nikon compressed by vimeo into a 720p video.

https://vimeo.com/63390253

In the second video you can see the same scene shot in 4K RAW 12bits 4:4:4 compressed into a 720p by vimeo. Even with online compression its in another level

https://vimeo.com/63309811#at=0


The RAW images can be edited directly into Adobe Premiere Pro or Sony Vegas
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post #12 of 18 Old 08-18-2013, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing. The noise this camera produces is very pleasing. It looks a lot like film grain. But for those who like the digital look, you can easily remove noise in programs like lightroom before starting your video project

I've been playing with BlackMagic Pocket Camera footage and it has a lot of noise as well
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post #13 of 18 Old 08-19-2013, 09:08 PM
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I'm interested to try the V1 or V2 for very high solution slow motion. How big is the buffer on the V2? Can it shoot 60 4k stills in 1 second, or can it shoot 30 4k stills in 0.5 second?
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post #14 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 03:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Both can do decent videos, but in the V2 things are easier

- In the V2 you can catch more frames than in the V1. Its recommended to use the 30fps burst. In 60fps you get ~1 second clip. In 30fps you can get ~2 second clips. That happens because the number of frames you can get is the same, so a lower fps means more video time. Make sure you have a fast card!

- After the burst in the V1 you have to wait 1:30 minutes for the buffer to clear. In the V2 you have to wait 5 seconds.

- In the V1 you dont have manual control, and thats bad specially because you cant control the shutter speed. Its recommended to use an ND filter to keep things at 1/60. In the V2 you have full manual control.

- In the V1 your videos will be 4K. In the V2 your videos will be 4.6K

- Im also buying a V2! I love making videos with small 2-5 second clips with a good music in the back - and that camera is perfect for that!

- Those clips are a great example. They are all made by a BlackMagic camera. There is no ambient sound and all the clips are 2-5 seconds. You can do a video like those in that tiny V2 with DOUBLE the resolution. How amazing is that?

https://vimeo.com/49272792
https://vimeo.com/55887965
https://vimeo.com/62959319
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 09:06 PM
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Thanks for the clear and helpful comparison, thedest. The only downsides of the V2 are the price and that it looses 1 bit in color depth vs the V1 according to DxO. Nonetheless, if you want 4k RAW video on the cheap, the V2 is the way to go.
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post #16 of 18 Old 08-21-2013, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep! Im also planning on buying a V2 to play with. And you are right, Nikon is charging to much for the V2. If it wasnt for that burst mode feature it would me RIDICULOUS!! But since its already expensive and you are thinking about buying one, wait until the end of September. The company that makes the Nikon 1 series sensors announced a few months ago a new 1" sensor capable of 4k 60fps videos, 80fps burst and 1080p 120fps. I dont know if the new V3 will have that sensor but people are talking about a new Nikon mirrorless (the V series has a 1 year cicle) in the next weeks!

Maybe we will have a new V3 coming soon. And if its not good enough, at least the V2 will drop the price!

Article about the new sensor: http://nikonrumors.com/2013/04/20/will-the-nikon-1-v3-use-the-new-aptina-14mp-4k-sensor.aspx/
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-21-2013, 03:41 AM
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If you already have Nikon 1 lenses, and you don't want to wait for the V3, the V2 (body-only) is on sale for $624.50 from Big Value via eBay.

Only place I've seen it for less than the price of a $697 D5200 body!

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post #18 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

Thanks for the clear and helpful comparison, thedest. The only downsides of the V2 are the price and that it looses 1 bit in color depth vs the V1 according to DxO. Nonetheless, if you want 4k RAW video on the cheap, the V2 is the way to go.

I agree about the price, but losing 1 bit in color depth is nothing if you remember that you have a 12-bit RAW file. There is so much information that you can manipulate in that file that you wont even notice that loss. Just remember that you will have a better image quality than in a C300, 1DC, GH3 etc and some of those cameras can cost up ro 20k dollars
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