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post #1 of 45 Old 09-26-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I had to make a new thread, but apparently I didn't have the permission to reply to my own thread...
Anyhow,
I need a camcorder...

Budget: $1400
24fps HD
60fps HD
I'd really like 120fps in at least 720p

Interchangeable lenses? Is that good?
I'd like it to be able to use shoulder mounts etc with it... That'd be great! So don't give me a Sony Handycam...

I've been looking for 1 month now.

Please help
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post #2 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YgnacioRunner View Post

Sorry I had to make a new thread, but apparently I didn't have the permission to reply to my own thread...
Anyhow,
I need a camcorder...

Budget: $1400
24fps HD
60fps HD
I'd really like 120fps in at least 720p

Interchangeable lenses? Is that good?
I'd like it to be able to use shoulder mounts etc with it... That'd be great! So don't give me a Sony Handycam...

I've been looking for 1 month now.

Please help

Y.R. - Your best bets are the Panasonic FZ200, LX7 or ZS30 which all shoot 720/120p.

None of these cameras have interchangeable lenses. Interchangeable lenses are usually found on expensive professional camcorders, and of course on DSLRs and mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras. Interchanging lenses allows you to get different "looks" depending on the type of story you're trying to tell.

Sadly, no traditional camcorder below the price of the $7780 Sony NEX-FS700 shoots HD slow motion.

If you really need a camcorder with HD slow motion, you can rent the FS700 for 3 days from borrowlenses for $504.

Hope this is helpful,

Bill
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post #3 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Y.R. - Your best bets are the Panasonic FZ200, LX7 or ZS30 which all shoot 720/120p.

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But he wants to spend $1400 on a "real" camcorder that takes "real" videos. He also needs some kind of gun stock thing to rest on his shoulder too. (I'm grinning while I type!)
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post #4 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Y.R. - Your best bets are the Panasonic FZ200, LX7 or ZS30 which all shoot 720/120p.

None of these cameras have interchangeable lenses. Interchangeable lenses are usually found on expensive professional camcorders, and of course on DSLRs and mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras. Interchanging lenses allows you to get different "looks" depending on the type of story you're trying to tell.

Sadly, no traditional camcorder below the price of the $7780 Sony NEX-FS700 shoots HD slow motion.

If you really need a camcorder with HD slow motion, you can rent the FS700 for 3 days from borrowlenses for $504.

Hope this is helpful,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution

I've heard so much about this Lumix FZ200, but it just doesn't seem that good. Does it even record 24fps? I don't really need 120fps HD, because you can always slow down 60fps... Any other suggestions? I just don't think it's maximizing my budget.. But yeah

Thanks,
Ψ
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post #5 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by YgnacioRunner View Post

I don't really need 120fps HD, because you can always slow down 60fps.
I fail to find logic here.
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post #6 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I fail to find logic here.

I'm saying 120fps would be good, but it's not a necessity because 60fps would still make pretty good slow motion.
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post #7 of 45 Old 09-27-2013, 10:35 AM
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JVC GY-HM70. Or Panasonic AG-AC90 + shoulder mount.
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post #8 of 45 Old 09-28-2013, 03:57 AM
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YR - If you're OK with slowing down 1080/60p, and you want a camera with a shoulder mount below $2000, the $1599 JVC GY-HM70 and the soon-to-be-released Panasonic AG-AC8 are pretty much your only choices.

I haven't seen a US price for the AG-AC8, but, according to this Panasonic press release, the European price will be 1280€.

Sadly, 60fps slowed down in the edit suite has a lot more motion blur than footage shot at 120fps (or higher) in camera. That is why people pay $thousands for NEX-FS700s and $tens of thousands for Phantom Flexes.

Good luck,

Bill B.
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post #9 of 45 Old 09-28-2013, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

YR - If you're OK with slowing down 1080/60p, and you want a camera with a shoulder mount below $2000, the $1599 JVC GY-HM70 and the soon-to-be-released Panasonic AG-AC8 are pretty much your only choices.

I haven't seen a US price for the AG-AC8, but, according to this Panasonic press release, the European price will be 1280€.

Sadly, 60fps slowed down in the edit suite has a lot more motion blur than footage shot at 120fps (or higher) in camera. That is why people pay $thousands for NEX-FS700s and $tens of thousands for Phantom Flexes.

Good luck,

Bill B.
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Okay, what about the Lumix FZ200 then? It doesn't have live HDMI does it? So I can add an extra screen on the shoulder mount?
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post #10 of 45 Old 09-28-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

I haven't seen a US price for the AG-AC8, but, according to this Panasonic press release, the European price will be 1280€.
Made with AC90 components I presume. "Full HD" and "Made in Japan" in HUUUUUUGE letters so that the owner could be proud and even the stupidest idiot out there would understand that you own a REAL camera. :-)
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post #11 of 45 Old 09-28-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by YgnacioRunner View Post

Okay, what about the Lumix FZ200 then? It doesn't have live HDMI does it? So I can add an extra screen on the shoulder mount?
Did you want 24p? It is not in the spec sheet, which you supposedly have read. No focus ring too.
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post #12 of 45 Old 09-29-2013, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by YgnacioRunner View Post

Okay, what about the Lumix FZ200 then? It doesn't have live HDMI does it? So I can add an extra screen on the shoulder mount?

The FZ200 does not have live HDMI out, nor 24p nor manual focus (it doesn't really need it - the autofocus is pretty much bulletproof).

Maybe you should get the $327 (sale price) Panasonic LX7 as a B cam for your 720/120p slo-mo needs and a separate A cam for everything else? Perhaps a $738 (sale price) Panasonic G6 with the kit lens. The G6 is absolutely the best video-capable camera in its price class, (it shoots 1080/60p and has focus peaking, wi-fi, intervalometer, & no clip length limit) but does not have live HDMI out.

Here is an example of what the LX7 can do (please watch at 1080p - slow motion starts at 4:00):





Here is what the G6 can do with an inexpensive NIkon adapter and a vintage 600mm lens on it, shot at 60p (please watch at 1080p):





Here is some of the same footage slowed down in post: http://vimeo.com/71873796



Cheers,

Bill
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post #13 of 45 Old 09-30-2013, 09:26 AM
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...... The G6 is absolutely the best video-capable camera in its price class.....
Why do you write that? The EOS-M seems to be getting rave reviews here and the NEX-6 seems to be well liked.

Are you saying the G6 is the best "hybrid" yet?

Thanks.

Bill
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post #14 of 45 Old 09-30-2013, 09:59 AM
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...... The G6 is absolutely the best video-capable camera in its price class.....
Why do you write that? The EOS-M seems to be getting rave reviews here and the NEX-6 seems to be well liked.

Are you saying the G6 is the best "hybrid" yet?
Indeed. Everyone and their mother knows that the EOS M is the bestest and hottest cam out there. Finally, one year after introduction (and even after supposed cancellation by Canon) it have gotten recognized for its amazing quality. AF works faster after Canon took its butt of a chair and fixed firmware bugs. There are endless choises of EF/EF-S lenses, because Canon did not care to ramp up selection of M lenses. With only $140 for an adapter you can make the EOS M setup look as bulky at T3i. Recording time, which is AFAIK limited to 30 minutes, should not impede any serious shooter, and no one in their right mind will use this cam for shooting, say, a stage play. The EOS M can be connected to AC power via an adapter, which costs about $80 and some people say has quality of the worst no-name Chinese junk.

Compared to the EOS M, the G6 with long-duration AVCHD recording (at least outside Europe), with its articulating screen, with slightly more popular M4/3 lens form-factor and with 14-140 lens does not have a chance. I am convinced that the G6 cannot be used for documentaries and interviews as effectively as the EOS M.
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post #15 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

The FZ200 does not have live HDMI out, nor 24p nor manual focus (it doesn't really need it - the autofocus is pretty much bulletproof).

Maybe you should get the $327 (sale price) Panasonic LX7 as a B cam for your 720/120p slo-mo needs and a separate A cam for everything else? Perhaps a $738 (sale price) Panasonic G6 with the kit lens. The G6 is absolutely the best video-capable camera in its price class, (it shoots 1080/60p and has focus peaking, wi-fi, intervalometer, & no clip length limit) but does not have live HDMI out.

Cheers,

Bill
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The G6 is almost a perfect camera, but the big problem I have with it is the IS is disabled in video mode. What a shame!
The LX7 does take some amazing video that's for sure.
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post #16 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Indeed. Everyone and their mother knows that the EOS M is the bestest and hottest cam out there. Finally, one year after introduction (and even after supposed cancellation by Canon) it have gotten recognized for its amazing quality. AF works faster after Canon took its butt of a chair and fixed firmware bugs. There are endless choises of EF/EF-S lenses, because Canon did not care to ramp up selection of M lenses. With only $140 for an adapter you can make the EOS M setup look as bulky at T3i. Recording time, which is AFAIK limited to 30 minutes, should not impede any serious shooter, and no one in their right mind will use this cam for shooting, say, a stage play. The EOS M can be connected to AC power via an adapter, which costs about $80 and some people say has quality of the worst no-name Chinese junk.

Compared to the EOS M, the G6 with long-duration AVCHD recording (at least outside Europe), with its articulating screen, with slightly more popular M4/3 lens form-factor and with 14-140 lens does not have a chance. I am convinced that the G6 cannot be used for documentaries and interviews as effectively as the EOS M.

LOL. It's at least the best "camera du jour" until its fans buy the 70D.
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post #17 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 08:41 AM
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The G6 is almost a perfect camera, but the big problem I have with it is the IS is disabled in video mode. What a shame!
Are you sure? This totally puts it out of my list.
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post #18 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 08:05 PM
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Are you sure? This totally puts it out of my list.

That is contrary to my experience with Panasonic G cameras - and also contrary to what Gordon Laing of Camera Labs says in the handheld pan test portion of his G6 review, "In the first of my sample videos above, I set the Lumix G6 to its 1080 / 50p AVCHD mode and filmed a handheld pan in twilight conditions using the 14-42mm kit lens at 14mm. Since the focus remained distant throughout the clip, I disabled the continuous AF option to avoid any unnecessary hunting. The G6 delivers good, clean video even in lower light conditions, while the optical stabilization in the kit lens has done a good job of ironing out any wobbles. "

Perhaps the confusion is because Panasonic bodies don't have body-based built-in stabilization? That said, Panasonic's lens-based O.I.S. works for both stills and video.

Cheers,

Bill
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post #19 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 08:45 PM
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That is contrary to my experience with Panasonic G cameras - and also contrary to what Gordon Laing of Camera Labs says in the handheld pan test portion of his G6 review, "In the first of my sample videos above, I set the Lumix G6 to its 1080 / 50p AVCHD mode and filmed a handheld pan in twilight conditions using the 14-42mm kit lens at 14mm. Since the focus remained distant throughout the clip, I disabled the continuous AF option to avoid any unnecessary hunting. The G6 delivers good, clean video even in lower light conditions, while the optical stabilization in the kit lens has done a good job of ironing out any wobbles. "

Perhaps the confusion is because Panasonic bodies don't have body-based built-in stabilization? That said, Panasonic's lens-based O.I.S. works for both stills and video.

Cheers,

Bill
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I beg your pardon, I was thinking of the new GX7 that has in-body IS, which will work a treat for the best m/43rds lenses like the 25mm F/1.4 and any other manual focus lenses you want to attach with adapters. The G6 has lens-only OIS, but not in-body. The shame was the GX7 NOT having the IS work in movie mode...
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post #20 of 45 Old 10-01-2013, 09:00 PM
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Why do you write that? The EOS-M seems to be getting rave reviews here and the NEX-6 seems to be well liked.

Are you saying the G6 is the best "hybrid" yet?

Thanks.

Bill

Hi Bill - What I am saying that it is the only hybrid still/video camera in its class with all of these video features:

- 1080/60p

- focus peaking out of the box

- built-in intervalometer

- a viewfinder

- unlimited clip length

- wi-fi and NFC

- almost zero moire

- fully articulated touch LCD

If it was between these three cameras, and I were buying a camera principally for stills, I might get the NEX-6 for its sensor size and viewfinder.

On a limited budget, I would probably get the EOS-M on clearance.

But if I wanted the best still/video camera below $1000, I would get the G6.

Best,

Bill
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post #21 of 45 Old 10-02-2013, 07:10 AM
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....................But if I wanted the best still/video camera below $1000, I would get the G6.

Best,

Bill

Thanks. I'm putting the G6 on the watch list with the EOS-M (or its replacement).

If all goes well, I may be in the market for another camera/camcorder (or "hybrid") in about a year. I don't need one now. I only want one and it would not be politically correct in my family for another year!

Part of my daily entertainment is reading about cameras I should buy. I'm fascinated by DSLRs but would rarely use one because of their bulk and thirst for multiple large lenses. In the '70s I had two Nikon bodies and 10 lenses. I had a metal padded suitcase for them. Now I travel with a single 20 pound carry on bag. DSLRs and light travel don't mix.

I'm also fascinated by cameras like the FX200 or Canon SX50. But, sensor size limits image quality and DOF control.

Mirror cameras are also in my fascination group. The EOS-M is apparantly scheduled for replacement and I was unaware of the G6. A close friend has a new NEX-6 but has no interest in video. He left yesterday for three weeks in Italy. I'll see what he says when he gets back.

Anticipation is a lot of the fun!

Bill
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Bill B.'s advice is good, as always. I would add, though, that I think the stills from the EOS M are better than from the G6 (this is based on comparisons with the GH3). In part this is due to the larger sensor, and in part due to the fact that the relatively cheap M lenses (there are three) are better than most of the m43 lenses (not all m43 lenses).
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post #23 of 45 Old 10-02-2013, 10:01 AM
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Bill B.'s advice is good, as always. I would add, though, that I think the stills from the EOS M are better than from the G6 (this is based on comparisons with the GH3). In part this is due to the larger sensor, and in part due to the fact that the relatively cheap M lenses (there are three) are better than most of the m43 lenses (not all m43 lenses).

Thanks Mark. Stills from a camera are very important to me.

I do suffer from significant GAS (Gear Addiction Syndrome). The EOS-M, EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM and Rokinon 300M-M-BK 300mm F6.3 Mirror Lens are Priority 1 at B&H. There is some fun reading about how GAS and its relationship with producing quality work.

I know that GAS gets in my way when the goal is better photos and videos. I'm working hard at catching up after years of digital ignorance. My GAS started with a Kodak in about 1955!



(That's me on the lawn. My dad and uncle are long gone. My sister and one of the cousins passed 70 this year)

In the seventies I had multiple thousand$ in a dark room, dark room equipment and cameras. When I tried to sell it all for digital it was worthless. I gave it away to a film photography student when I downsized from a house to full time living in a motorhome for a few years.

Now I'm trying to stay focused on digital simplicity, which isn't simple. I have a favorite camera and software. I'm using them to catch up from years of intentional digital ignorance caused by a sense of loss and anger when film went obsolete. When I think I understand what I have well enough, I will again give in to the pleasures of GAS. If it were right now, it would probably be an EOS-M kit. By the time I give in, it may well be an EOS-M Version 2 or equivalent.

Thanks again for the tip on the stills.

Bill
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Have you forgotten about the converter from EF-S to EF-M ?
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Have you forgotten about the converter from EF-S to EF-M ?
If you are asking me, I don't have any Canon lenses that need converting. In fact, I don't have any lenses at all.
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post #26 of 45 Old 10-02-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
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Have you forgotten about the converter from EF-S to EF-M ?
If you are asking me, I don't have any Canon lenses that need converting. In fact, I don't have any lenses at all.
I thought that "The EOS-M, EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM and Rokinon 300M-M-BK 300mm F6.3 Mirror Lens are Priority 1 at B&H." meant that you have ordered these ("priority 1"). If I understand correctly, the EF-S 55-250 requires a lens adapter, which was absent from your list.
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Have you forgotten about the converter from EF-S to EF-M ?

He is saying that to use the EF S 55-250mm IS STM lens on an M, or M2, you need the EF to M converter. The 300mm does not need the converter. Add to the wish list?

It is an advantage of the M that it can, with the converter, use all Canon EF, EF S lenses with full capability (IS, AF) and no loss in light or quality.
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It is an advantage of the M that it can, with the converter, use all Canon EF, EF S lenses with full capability (IS, AF) and no loss in light or quality.
They said that it was an advantage of the OS/2 that it could run all Windows16 and some Windows32 apps with full capability and no loss in functionality, speed or look. ;-)
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post #29 of 45 Old 10-02-2013, 03:52 PM
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I thought that "The EOS-M, EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM and Rokinon 300M-M-BK 300mm F6.3 Mirror Lens are Priority 1 at B&H." meant that you have ordered these ("priority 1"). If I understand correctly, the EF-S 55-250 requires a lens adapter, which was absent from your list.
No. I didn't order anything. The B&H Wish List allows you to prioritize your wants and needs with a tag. I put the "Pri 1" on this stuff to more easily keep track.

Thanks for keeping an eye on me. I frequently need it. (This morning my DW had to move my box of granola from the refrigerator back to the cupboard where it belongs.)

Bill
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

They said that it was an advantage of the OS/2 that it could run all Windows16 and some Windows32 apps with full capability and no loss in functionality, speed or look. ;-)

Yeah, but IBM combined OS/2 with microchannel hardware, which was proprietary - not interoperable with standard stuff. OS/2 and microchannel offered no cost, size or operational advantages over existing standard systems and failed. Comparing IBM's failed monopoly predation attempt to the EOS M - which offers precisely interoperability with all Canon EF lenses at lower cost - seems odd.

The EOS M cheaply opens up the Canon system, with no loss in quality or essential capability and also gives you portability. The EOS M and any EF lens is still smaller and lighter than any DSLR with the same lens. I can fit the M and any of my EF lenses in a small bag (one attached, one detached), but no DSLR body will fit.

The EOS M threatens DSLRs (their cost and size) and camcorders (their quality); we will see what survives. Even if Canon stops the M line (doubtful), the EOS M will always be able to use any Canon lens in existence now, or any future Canon lenses that are invented. It uses the same battery as the SL1, so even the batteries will be available.
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