Canon DSLRs Shooting Video in NYC! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 10-07-2013, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Canon cameras are out shooting video in Union Square, NYC. You see a Canon 60D, complete with handheld rig (and rented lens), and an elaborate shoot (gaffer, director, and videographer) using a Canon 5D Mark ii. And, of course, the usual Union Square activities: chess, protests with music, exercising, flower- and produce-buying, donation-seeking, dog-watching, and free hugs.

All shot with a Canon EOS M and 55-250mm lens, no rig.

https://vimeo.com/76340752
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post #2 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 09:19 AM
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At about 23 seconds, there is a guy wearing a backpack and shooting with a complicated rig. What is the thing mounted in the hot shoe?

Bill
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post #3 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

At about 23 seconds, there is a guy wearing a backpack and shooting with a complicated rig. What is the thing mounted in the hot shoe?

Bill

That is a Zoom H4n: it records audio to sd cards: it has two built-in mics (and mic inputs).

What is interesting is that it is not connected to the camera (line out from the recorder to the mic input). Nor are his headphones (earbuds) connected to it. And no wind muffler. I thought perhaps he was faking it.

More interestingly, the elaborate three-man crew shoot with the 5D Mark ii has no external audio device at all. No sound guy.

Perhaps all of them are faking it.
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post #4 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

At about 23 seconds, there is a guy wearing a backpack and shooting with a complicated rig. What is the thing mounted in the hot shoe?

Bill
Looks like ZOOM H4.

zoom-h4n-dslr.jpg
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post #5 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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I cannot help keeping noticing amazing video quality of the EOS M. The 70D is $1200-1500. Hmm...
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post #6 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 11:00 AM
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There have been two projects I've done where one of those would have helped. Both were where I was asked to record a long event for "historical" purposes. I had no control over the situations so the audio sucked bad. Although it would have been a lot of work to sync in post, a Zoom near, or strapped on to, the talker would have helped.

Not only that, one of my gorgeous, brilliant and charming granddaughters has started playing an electric guitar!
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post #7 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I cannot help keeping noticing amazing video quality of the EOS M. The 70D is $1200-1500. Hmm...

That amazing video quality is irritating me. I don't want another camera now. I do want better bokah/DOF control. I have the possibility of a cash "windfall" in the spring. Will the EOS-M still be around?
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post #8 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I cannot help keeping noticing amazing video quality of the EOS M. The 70D is $1200-1500. Hmm...
That amazing video quality is irritating me. I don't want another camera now. I do want better bokah/DOF control. I have the possibility of a cash "windfall" in the spring. Will the EOS-M still be around?
I want a tilting screen and better grip of the 70D as well as no-nonsense EF-S mount, but the price difference is about a whole grand. I wonder will Canon continue supporting its M mount? Will it release new cameras for this mount? It feels kind of silly to buy a converter and EF-S lenses... I am not a "Canon guy" so I don't have any Canon lenses. In fact, I have only a handful of lenses and I have been sitting on the fence for the last three of five years, being unsure which brand and mount to prefer. As the Nikon I have is completely uncapable to produce quality video (bitrate is twice lower than on the Canon, moire is more pronounced, red color is broken into horrible tiles, uneven red-to-yellow-to-blue noise in low light) I am ready to replace it with something else, but I haven't decided which brand and mount to choose. Canon sucked badly moire- and resolution wise a couple of years ago, but the EOS M videos are very lovely. Also, with updated firmware autofocus is about as good as on the 70D (autofocus on the D3200 is dog slow and hunting all the way around).

The 55-250 seems to be a quite good lens even despite that it is not very fast.

Do you use 18-55 often? Do you think it can be replaced with the 22 and the 50? Mark, do you have 1.8 50mm prime? How does it look attached to the EOS M? How the image looks like? Oh, found one:

IvanM-8048-2.jpg

What should be the reasonable minimum lens selection?

* 22 EF-M, 50 EF-S, 55-250 EF-S?
* 18-55 EF-M, 55-250 EF-S?
* 22 EF-M, Sigma 17-70 2.8-4.5 EF, something else for tele?
* what else?

The 55-250 is almost a must. If only Canon offered a similar lens in M form-factor, the decision-making would be much simpler.
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post #9 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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On lens selection:

To take full advantage of the EOS M, you want:

1. A prime lens for dim light (wide aperture) that is also IS. Big sensor, fast lens - nirvana for indoors.

2. You want an IS telephoto zoom that is quiet.

3. You want a normal IS zoom that is quiet.

You want the lenses to be light and maybe small.

This is what I found to satisfy all of the above:

1. For dim light, the EF 35mm IS f2.0 USM is Canon's only fast prime with IS. It is a new lens, and is very high quality. Not cheap. This video was shot with it: https://vimeo.com/74063702

2. For telephoto zoom: the EF S 55-250mm IS STM. It is surprisingly light, quiet and relatively cheap. A brand new lens, and it has really good IS. This video shot with it, mostly at full zoom: https://vimeo.com/75364534

3. For regular zoom: the M kit lens - EF M 18-55mm IS STM; quiet and sharp and small and relatively cheap.

Or, as an alternative normal zoom: the EF S 18-135 IS STM. It is quiet, cheap and good but surprisingly much heavier (but shorter) than the EF S 55-250mm. But then you can use this lens instead of the two lenses (55-250mm and 18-55mm) if you don't need the full reach. This video was shot with it: https://vimeo.com/73551007

If you think you do not need IS, there are more, but not necessarily better, options. Without IS, the EOS M is impossible to use handheld for video - it is too light!

Finally, if you want a really wide-angle zoom, there is the EF M 11-22 IS STM. Really small, really sharp. With this lens and the 18-135mm and the 35mm you have a big range and IS for good light and a IS for dim light (11-135mm + 35mm).
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post #10 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 02:05 PM
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I would not want to switch between M and EF/EF-S lenses, because I would also have to swap out the adapter, too much work. So if I get the 55-250, I want other lenses to be EF-S too. Thus, the 18-55 kit is out, the 22 is out too (and it does not have IS, does it?). The 35mm is expensive, not too wide for nature or indoors, and not too tele for portrait - kinda no here no there. I checked specs for the Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM, it does have OS (IS, OIS, whatever) not sure about continuous focusing. It costs about the same as the 35mm you mentioned, but I think it is a better value for someone like me who wants to minimize number of lenses and mounts.

So I am thinking: EOS-M body + EF-S adapter + Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM + EF S 55-250mm IS STM.
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post #11 of 28 Old 10-08-2013, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

I would not want to switch between M and EF/EF-S lenses, because I would also have to swap out the adapter, too much work. So if I get the 55-250, I want other lenses to be EF-S too. Thus, the 18-55 kit is out, the 22 is out too (and it does not have IS, does it?). The 35mm is expensive, not too wide for nature or indoors, and not too tele for portrait - kinda no here no there. I checked specs for the Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM, it does have OS (IS, OIS, whatever) not sure about continuous focusing. It costs about the same as the 35mm you mentioned, but I think it is a better value for someone like me who wants to minimize number of lenses and mounts.

So I am thinking: EOS-M body + EF-S adapter + Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro OS HSM + EF S 55-250mm IS STM.

I agree that going all EF or EF S and keeping down the number of lenses makes sense (and if you ever decide to go 70D you are all set). The only question is whether f4 (for, say, around 50mm) is good enough in low light and whether the Sigma lens is quiet in focusing and OS. There is the Canon EF S 17-55mm f2.8 IS USM; gives you one stop advantage and maybe better able to zoom given the constant aperture, but it's pricey.
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post #12 of 28 Old 10-10-2013, 07:27 AM
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Great image quality.

Very impressed. Does not look a typical "camcorder", which I guess is the point.

- D

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post #13 of 28 Old 10-12-2013, 12:28 AM
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The few focus pulls that you did with touch-screen are not smooth enough - they are hasty and there is some minor but noticeable hunting. Which means that the spot focus cannot be used for focus pulls. Exposure also hunts in several scenes, making video brighter and darker - dedicated videocams usually don't do that.
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post #14 of 28 Old 10-13-2013, 10:03 AM
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Mark, I haven't visited the camcorder section in a while and was surprised to see you with this! Can the GH3 be far behind?

I've heard the knock on the M is a lousy autofocus, are you finding that? Has this become your prime shooter at this point? No more camcorders? eek.gif
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post #15 of 28 Old 10-13-2013, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Mark, I haven't visited the camcorder section in a while and was surprised to see you with this! Can the GH3 be far behind?

I've heard the knock on the M is a lousy autofocus, are you finding that? Has this become your prime shooter at this point? No more camcorders? eek.gif

We missed you.

I am personally glad you are back - remember when you used to observe that my camcorder videos somehow were lacking in color saturation.- and I demurred. Well, you were right. Tempted by the deal of the century EOS M price, and the compact size of the EOS M I tried a big-sensor camera for video. And boy was I impressed by the color, dynamic range and dof (not to mention low-light capability) compared to those small-sensor camcorders. I can hardly look at them anymore. Yes, the big-sensor Canons have lower resolution, but color richness just seems to trump that. The EOS M gives me DSLR color and dynamic range, in a real small body (the GH3 is gigantic in comparison).

After the firmware upgrade, the EOS M autofocus is more than fine. The touch-screen focus is magic, and I have fun with the focus pulls using it. I have never had problems with auto focus (I did have plenty of focus problems with the NEX 5N).
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post #16 of 28 Old 10-14-2013, 12:52 PM
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Yup, I well rembember our discussions on saturation...or lack thereof.

But OK, you've got my interest with the Canon. Talk to me about moire. That's always been a turn off for me with DSLR video (including my NEX5 & NEX VG30...which I'm selling). Have you had any issues with motor noise during AF?

The other remaining 'issue' for me is the lack of a VF. How are you finding dealing with that? I know you probably do better with that than me, but with that said, your video (as well as the A/B you did with the NEX5...ouch!) is tempting me...seriously. smile.gif

Edit: One more thing Mark, are you using 1080 30p or 720 60p? I do miss the option of 1080 60p, but I recently bought the LG G2 smartphone and have shot some videos at the 30p setting. Using my Samsung F8500 plasma in conjuction with the motion setting set at 'smooth', I've been shocked at how fluid the motion is at 30p. I couldn't achieve that smoothness on my other display, the Sharp Elite. So I'd imagine I could use 30p with the Canon.
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post #17 of 28 Old 10-14-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup, I well rembember our discussions on saturation...or lack thereof.

But OK, you've got my interest with the Canon. Talk to me about moire. That's always been a turn off for me with DSLR video (including my NEX5 & NEX VG30...which I'm selling). Have you had any issues with motor noise during AF?

The other remaining 'issue' for me is the lack of a VF. How are you finding dealing with that? I know you probably do better with that than me, but with that said, your video (as well as the A/B you did with the NEX5...ouch!) is tempting me...seriously. smile.gif

Edit: One more thing Mark, are you using 1080 30p or 720 60p? I do miss the option of 1080 60p, but I recently bought the LG G2 smartphone and have shot some videos at the 30p setting. Using my Samsung F8500 plasma in conjuction with the motion setting set at 'smooth', I've been shocked at how fluid the motion is at 30p. I couldn't achieve that smoothness on my other display, the Sharp Elite. So I'd imagine I could use 30p with the Canon.

Good questions.

1 I have shot many, many videos with the M, and moire only showed up in something like two clips out of hundreds. And I am shooting pattered shirts and brick walls (incidentally, of course). You can view (download) all my EOS M videos at Vimeo, and see if you spot anything. As usual I am editing with no recompression.

2. Motor noise: This is what Canon is now working on, renewing many of their lenses to be silent for video (look for STM lenses). All the M lenses (three) are STM, and I have posted many Youtube videos of the lenses focusing (focus pulls and the like) and you hear nothing; all handheld so no OIS noise nor AF noise. The new EF S 55-250mm IS STM lens is great, and quiet and holds real steady. All the new Canon lenses are STM. The interesting thing is they gave the little EOS M more video capability than some of their DSLRs, including the new SL1 - stereo mics and external mic input. And the audio is fully manually controlled (with optional limiter!) and uncompressed - much better than the NEX.

3. I used to be a fanatic for 108060p, but I am shooting at 108030p and have not seen any lack of smoothness (no sports videos, though).

Given I am used to no VF, I am finding the EOS M to be a great, cheap camcorder. The LCD is excellent - I can really judge color and exposure and focus even in bright sun.
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post #18 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 12:18 AM
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The moire thing with the EOS M is something i have not found a way of avoiding,its pretty much there most of the time,but the GH2 i had was the same but i prefer the EOS M look.
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post #19 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
I used to be a fanatic for 108060p, but I am shooting at 108030p and have not seen any lack of smoothness
That is interesting, as I can see strobing in your videos. Granted, I haven't downloaded the original, but Vimeo does not remove frames from videos that have frame rate of 30fps or lower. If you watch your videos on a TV with interpolation turned on, or on Splash with 60p smoothing turned on then you may not see what I see.

Anyway, Mark, I have a question for you: do you feel ANY kind of play between the body and the EF adapter? And I mean any, even the tiniest?
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post #20 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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The Vimeo videos do not look as smooth as the originals - I noticed too the strobing with the Vimeo streaming (even with all the 60p videos I have uploaded). I am not sure why. For playing the originals I use WMP and Splash Lite, but I do not think I have invoked any smoothing.

Adaptor: No play at all, none for EF and EF S lenses. Really solid. Locks in tight. I have mounted the Tamron 7-3090mm EF lens on it - very heavy - and no feeling of looseness.
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post #21 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The Vimeo videos do not look as smooth as the originals - I noticed too the strobing with the Vimeo streaming (even with all the 60p videos I have uploaded). I am not sure why. For playing the originals I use WMP and Splash Lite, but I do not think I have invoked any smoothing.
Like YouTube, Vimeo does not stream 50p/60p, it drops frame rate to 25p/30p by removing every other frame. Which, exacerbated with short shutter speed, produces noticeable stutter.

Because of dropped frames interlaced videos do not have combing on Vimeo: they remove every other field and convert remaining fields into frames.

If you've shot at 24p, 25p it keeps it as it were.
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Adaptor: No play at all, none for EF and EF S lenses. Really solid. Locks in tight. I have mounted the Tamron 7-3090mm EF lens on it - very heavy - and no feeling of looseness.
Even if you intentionally try to move it around? No movement, no metal knocking? I mean not on the lens-adapter side, but on the adapter-camera side.
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post #22 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
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The moire thing with the EOS M is something i have not found a way of avoiding,its pretty much there most of the time,but the GH2 i had was the same but i prefer the EOS M look.

Didn't realize you got the EOS M, Flinty. Yeah, moire for me is a big deal. I'm really having problems with it on my NEX6 & NEX VG30, both of which I'll almost certainly sell.

I've ordered the GH3 that I should get tomorrow. I've always been very interested in it given the rave reviews its received. A whole lot bigger than the EOS M, but it does have lots of capabilities. Again, my biggest concern here is moire. I'm hoping that doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker. I've looked at tons of videos shot with the GH3 and it looks pretty well controlled. I can see it in some videos but it's not nearly as bad as it is in the NEX series.

If it doesn't work out, I might try the EOS M, but my biggest issue is the lack of a VF. I've always had issues with cameras with no VFs. It's just a pain in the butt for me between using my reading glasses to see the damn screen and have to deal with sun glare. I think if there was an EOS M with VF, I'd probably have been all over it.
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post #23 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If it doesn't work out, I might try the EOS M, but my biggest issue is the lack of a VF. I've always had issues with cameras with no VFs. It's just a pain in the butt for me between using my reading glasses to see the damn screen and have to deal with sun glare. I think if there was an EOS M with VF, I'd probably have been all over it.

I have the EOS M; it's a great camera, considering the $299 deal.

It may not be a universal problem, but the lack of viewfinder is an issue for me. At least ATM.

I have found many times that, later viewing footage on the PC, the shot was not in focus/after depending on the AF tracking function. I have used the manual focus and it works great in that you can set up the focus in the magnified focus assist. I'm referring more to the frequent situations where the focus needs to change while still recording.

I only have the 22mm lens, might be different with the 18-55.

The magnified focus assist is not available while recording. Magic Lantern might have the focus box during recording video, I don't know haven't tried it.
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post #24 of 28 Old 10-15-2013, 05:19 PM
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That's my problem too, xfws. Between not seeing the composition clearly, not seeing the color balance perfectly and perhaps missing focusing errors, the VF is a pretty big deal to me.

I know the EOS M is capable of some really nice results as Mark has demonstrated. But Mark has this nasty habit of making virtually any camera he uses look great. biggrin.gif
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post #25 of 28 Old 10-16-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Didn't realize you got the EOS M, Flinty. Yeah, moire for me is a big deal. I'm really having problems with it on my NEX6 & NEX VG30, both of which I'll almost certainly sell.

I've ordered the GH3 that I should get tomorrow. I've always been very interested in it given the rave reviews its received. A whole lot bigger than the EOS M, but it does have lots of capabilities. Again, my biggest concern here is moire. I'm hoping that doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker. I've looked at tons of videos shot with the GH3 and it looks pretty well controlled. I can see it in some videos but it's not nearly as bad as it is in the NEX series.

If it doesn't work out, I might try the EOS M, but my biggest issue is the lack of a VF. I've always had issues with cameras with no VFs. It's just a pain in the butt for me between using my reading glasses to see the damn screen and have to deal with sun glare. I think if there was an EOS M with VF, I'd probably have been all over it.

Hi Ken,yes i watched some of Marks EOS M films and liked the overal look of them so impulsively i bought one,they are cheap here too,i only have the 18-55mm lens and dont know if i will get the longer one,having never owned a camcorder or camera without a viewfinder filming with an lcd is a struggle as i need glasses for reading so its the same with lcds,i have the Canon HF-G30 and like it as i do a lot of wildlife filming,regarding the EOS M i do get moire and would love to know the secret of avoiding it with camera videoing, the G2 I owned was worse still , it took fairly good video but only if i used a tripod,this is what i got even using a monopod with it folded to one as a little extra hand support https://vimeo.com/57369071
using my camcorder hand held is no problem,any way i prefer the overal color of the EOS M to the GH2 which although possibly a bit sharper i never realy took to as many did.Cheers Chris
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post #26 of 28 Old 10-16-2013, 11:01 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1_tVDkzjZ8 Never in this world would i have done this filming with my camcorder,with the EOS M i could be inconspicuous,and even let the camera hang by its strap and film.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dorset/content/articles/2008/10/14/pack_monday_feature.shtml the event.
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post #27 of 28 Old 10-17-2013, 09:53 AM
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Mark, have you tried 720p mode? Does it look like HD? Does it have lots of moire?
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post #28 of 28 Old 10-18-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Mark, have you tried 720p mode? Does it look like HD? Does it have lots of moire?

Here is a 720p video:



Choose 720p (obviously).

I stick to 1080.
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