Sony RX10 with 24-200mm f2.8 zoom and 1" sensor ! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 455 Old 11-30-2013, 07:27 PM
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Interesting comments on Slashgear (as much as I can interpret from the Google translation). They're characterization of the RX10 as the first camera with a no-compromises result for both pix & video is, IMO, quite accurate. If I'm interpreting their horizontal resolution measurements correctly, it appears to equal or exceed that of the GH3. That's in line with what I've said here and noticed in my own A/B tests.

My suspicion relative to their better results without the Active stabilization is that the results with Standard OIS and no OIS would have been the same. They submitted only 2 results, with and without Active Stabilization. To me that implies either no stabilization at all, or simply the optical only (Standard). I contend, and I think my prior comments on this camera have been substantiated in other areas, there is absolutely zero difference between OIS and no OIS.
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post #272 of 455 Old 11-30-2013, 07:35 PM
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I look at those Slashcam.de resolution charts. The RX10 has the 1" sensor like the RX100, but - the resolution chart for the RX100 is terrible:

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Kompakte-und-guenstige-Super-16-Digitalkamera--Sony-DSC-RX100--Kritikpunkte---Aus-dem-Messlabor.html#Kriti

You can see the aliasing clearly (just like for many DSLRs).

The RX10 chart looks just like (as they say) a top level camcorder (no active OIS):

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-DSC-RX10---Der-Camcorder-Killer--alles-.html#T2

Almost as good as the TM900 in pure resolution.

Sony managed to get the resolution of a top camcorder, but with a (relatively) big sensor. A real accomplishment over what they offered a year ago with that 1" sensor. And the RX100 video for the most part looks good.

Here, btw, is the resolution test chart for the Panasonic TM900:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=www%2Eslashcam%2Ede%2Fartikel%2FTest%2FPanasonic%2DHDC%2DTM900%2D%2Dbauaehnlich%2DHDC%2DSD909%2Dund%2DHDC%2DHS900%2D%2Ehtml&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

Obviously, resolution isn't everything, but it is important.
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post #273 of 455 Old 11-30-2013, 08:08 PM
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Yeah Mark, really really close to the 900 for resolution. So close I question how observable the difference would even be, certainly without an A/B. I had the 920 which I just sold a few days ago (which I think took a hit in resolution relative to the 900) and found the RX10 to be sharper and more resolute. So these results don't surprise me.

Having had the 900 & 920, I'll take the RX10 video quality over the 900 without any hesitation. It's a deeper, thicker picture, with richer colors and an image that shows the larger nature of the chip relative to the 3 small chips in the Pannys.

I was kidding with a video buddy of mine who also recently bought the RX10 and is equally surprised by how good it is. I was saying to him that the RX10 is, for me, a 'bridge camera'....a bridge to 4K. I really don't envision getting any more 2K cams after this. This is the first cam I've had where I feel equally comfortable shooting stills at the same time I'm shooting video. smile.gif

But I'll tell you, having seen some of the videos from the 4K Galaxy Note, I can't wait for a quality 4K cam that's of a manageable size. Yeah, the Note is just a cellphone and the video is deficient in many ways, but the clarity of the video, even on a 2K monitor, is really stunning. But I digress. wink.gif
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post #274 of 455 Old 11-30-2013, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Welcome. We are glad to have you, and also glad so that we can provide you with some information that will help you out. Most of what you say is either incorrect or irrelevant or theory, not fact. AS the Dest says, show us with a clip. I tested Ninja Pro Res on a very detailed scene and saw no difference (actual evidence posted to Vimeo, where you download the originals). Same codec on the camera I used as used on the RX10 (Rx10 better use of sensor info).

HDMI output is pre-compression, so the codec the camera uses to record on it's internal media is irrelevant. In any case, you don't have an RX10 so you do not have the ability to comment on live output. You can't use some other camera to make conclusions about the RX10 (which is what you appear to be doing).

If you record output from playback, then, yes, that would be the same as the recorded footage.

Older cameras used 4:2:0 for their live view output, but that is not necessarily true for newer cameras. The Canon G30/XA20/XA25 output 4:2:2 for example.

Other than the 4:2:0 v 4:2:2 argument (and bit depth), the main advantage for using a recorder is to have footage that does not have (as many) compression artifacts in it, because at some point you are probably going to have to re-encode. You might not see a big difference when you view the Ninja footage against the internal recorded footage, but when you re-encode that is going to have an effect.
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post #275 of 455 Old 12-01-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

HDMI output is pre-compression, so the codec the camera uses to record on it's internal media is irrelevant. In any case, you don't have an RX10 so you do not have the ability to comment on live output. You can't use some other camera to make conclusions about the RX10 (which is what you appear to be doing).

If you record output from playback, then, yes, that would be the same as the recorded footage.

Older cameras used 4:2:0 for their live view output, but that is not necessarily true for newer cameras. The Canon G30/XA20/XA25 output 4:2:2 for example.

Other than the 4:2:0 v 4:2:2 argument (and bit depth), the main advantage for using a recorder is to have footage that does not have (as many) compression artifacts in it, because at some point you are probably going to have to re-encode. You might not see a big difference when you view the Ninja footage against the internal recorded footage, but when you re-encode that is going to have an effect.

The GW77 and the RX10 use the exact same internal codec (AVCHD) so comparing Pro Res to the internal to compare codecs on the GW77 is relevant for what you would get from the RX10, though as you say not perfect. Using a Ninja2 on the RX10 or the GW77 would give similar results unless the RX10 actually did output something other than 8-bit 4:2:0.

Here is the slashcam.de resolution test of the GW77 (55):

http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-HDR-GW55---Kompakt-Taucher---alles-.html#T1

Very similar to the RX100 (the RX100 is slightly better). The GW77 and RX100 (same codec) are comparable for this purpose.

I also posted for comparison graded Pro Res and graded AVCHD from the camera (thus both re-encoded) to check your second argument as well (because I knew this argument when I did it). Theoretically, on compression artifacts, you are correct. But there is no difference anyone can see. And, of course, you cannot do much with color given you still have 8-bit 4:2:0 from either camera (as far as we know).

It is funny that people who do not own or use the Ninja want to argue for it; while I have it, tried it, and find it of little value. I am all ears to be convinced it is worth using. Some even attached it to a BMPCC, where there is an advantage in being able to use larger media (SSD's as opposed to SD's) and use a more informative lcd, but of course it's useless for RAW.

Finally one more thing, which makes all of this really academic: the Ninja 2 cannot record 108060p. Period. It records 108060i. Cuts temporal resolution in half compared to the 108060p internal. Any takers? [yes, it does 24p].
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post #276 of 455 Old 12-01-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post



Finally one more thing, which makes all of this really academic: the Ninja 2 cannot record 108060p. Period. It records 108060i. Cuts temporal resolution in half compared to the 108060p internal. Any takers? [yes, it does 24p].

Yes, I know, which is one of the main reasons I don't have one smile.gif.

The BM have the same issue with their shuttle recorders. They have been suggesting that they would implement 1080p60 for ages, but it hasn't happened. Plus, although they still sell the things, the USB versions apparently only work with obsolete chip sets.
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post #277 of 455 Old 12-04-2013, 05:01 PM
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We spent a couple of hours at Rock Center today prior to the tree lighting. Our intent was to get in and out of the city prior to the lighting.

At any rate, here's a link to a quick video I shot and uploaded to Vimeo. You can download the original 1080p file if you wish.

https://vimeo.com/81056018
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post #278 of 455 Old 12-04-2013, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We spent a couple of hours at Rock Center today prior to the tree lighting. Our intent was to get in and out of the city prior to the lighting.

At any rate, here's a link to a quick video I shot and uploaded to Vimeo. You can download the original 1080p file if you wish.

https://vimeo.com/81056018

Looks familiar! wink.gif Excellent color and OIS.
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post #279 of 455 Old 12-04-2013, 06:17 PM
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Thanks Mark. Did you experience de ja vu? wink.gif
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post #280 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

It is funny that people who do not own or use the Ninja want to argue for it; while I have it, tried it, and find it of little value

As one of my mentors used to say - "A man with experience is never at the mercy of a person with a theory" smile.gif
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post #281 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We spent a couple of hours at Rock Center today prior to the tree lighting. Our intent was to get in and out of the city prior to the lighting.

At any rate, here's a link to a quick video I shot and uploaded to Vimeo. You can download the original 1080p file if you wish.

https://vimeo.com/81056018

Great video, Ken. Impressive image quality. Added to the RX10 group on Vimeo! Is there something different about the IS setting for the shot of the "bugler" at 1:53? And the shot immediately thereafter? There seems to be a little jitter there I don't see in the rest of the video.

Best,

Bill
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post #282 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 02:50 AM
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In post 273 Ken says most will be going 4K nest year,at least i have not made or puchased commercial DVDs in years,but i think DVD is used by a huge proportion of the publc still rather than the vastly superior Blu Ray.4K for the general public in 2150 possibly wink.gif
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post #283 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Great video, Ken. Impressive image quality. Added to the RX10 group on Vimeo! Is there something different about the IS setting for the shot of the "bugler" at 1:53? And the shot immediately thereafter? There seems to be a little jitter there I don't see in the rest of the video.

Best,

Bill

Thanks Bill.

The jitter in the long shot of the bugle was probably more a function of me trying to be steady, and not being as successful as I'd have liked, in the large crowd. There was no change in the OIS setting. I actually had to do 3 takes of that shot because people were knocking in to me as they came up the stairs!

The more I use the RX10, the more I'm impressed with its video output. Even the audio is above par with a nicely balanced sound that's not tinny and has some nice lower frequency response.
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post #284 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 04:52 AM
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In post 273 Ken says most will be going 4K nest year,at least i have not made or puchased commercial DVDs in years,but i think DVD is used by a huge proportion of the publc still rather than the vastly superior Blu Ray.4K for the general public in 2150 possibly wink.gif

Flinty, that's really not what I said. Re-read my post.

What I did say is that I'm finding the RX10 so capable, it will probably be the last 2K camera I'll buy. I didn't project when the masses will embrace 4K. Trust me though, it will be sooner than many of us think as prices drop and HDMI 2.0 is implemented.

I'd like to start shooting in 4K sooner than later since I know I'll have a large screen 4K UHDTV within a few years. Since 4K looks excellent now, down-rez'd on a 2K display, it makes sense to me to start archiving things I shoot in 4K. It would look great now and much better later when viewed on a true 4K display.

With that said, I'm not buying a 6lb 4K camera now. I'll wait for both weight and prices to drop. Most importantly, all other aspects of PQ must be there in addition to the extra resolution, otherwise I'd be shooting everything with a Galaxy Note. smile.gif

In the interim, I'm tickled with the RX10 and feel no rush at all to move to 4K.
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post #285 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Flinty, that's really not what I said. Re-read my post.

What I did say is that I'm finding the RX10 so capable, it will probably be the last 2K camera I'll buy. I didn't project when the masses will embrace 4K. Trust me though, it will be sooner than many of us think as prices drop and HDMI 2.0 is implemented.

I'd like to start shooting in 4K sooner than later since I know I'll have a large screen 4K UHDTV within a few years. Since 4K looks excellent now, down-rez'd on a 2K display, it makes sense to me to start archiving things I shoot in 4K. It would look great now and much better later when viewed on a true 4K display.

With that said, I'm not buying a 6lb 4K camera now. I'll wait for both weight and prices to drop. Most importantly, all other aspects of PQ must be there in addition to the extra resolution, otherwise I'd be shooting everything with a Galaxy Note. smile.gif

In the interim, I'm tickled with the RX10 and feel no rush at all to move to 4K.[/qu

Cool Ken i was not commenting on the RX10 by the way, just the publics viewing tastes,i meant 4K by 2050 in my joke ,not 2150 i hate to think what humans will have done to the planet by then.
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post #286 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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4K by 2050 ? Most people will be doing 8K much sooner than that IMHO.
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But the ultimate goal of DisplayPort 1.3 is to support 8K resolution, which will either be 7680 × 4320 (16:9) (33.1 megapixels) or 8192 × 4320 (~17:9) (35.3 megapixels).
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2013/12/3/displayport-13-to-support-8k2c-standard-expected-in-q2-2014.aspx
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post #287 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We spent a couple of hours at Rock Center today prior to the tree lighting. Our intent was to get in and out of the city prior to the lighting.

At any rate, here's a link to a quick video I shot and uploaded to Vimeo. You can download the original 1080p file if you wish.

https://vimeo.com/81056018

Nice. Ken, did you do any PP?
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post #288 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 08:21 AM
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Thank's Bob. No, no processing at all. Just straight from the camera and using the program Mark recommended for essentially lossless editing, TMPG. All I did was throw in two dissolves and trimmed one clip.
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post #289 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 09:27 AM
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I hope it is not too late to ask Santa for the new camera smile.gif
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post #290 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 09:44 AM
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4K 8K why are most ,[not me] still happy with DVD,thats all i hear on tv buy the such and such DVD for xmas.
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post #291 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We spent a couple of hours at Rock Center today prior to the tree lighting. Our intent was to get in and out of the city prior to the lighting.

At any rate, here's a link to a quick video I shot and uploaded to Vimeo. You can download the original 1080p file if you wish.

https://vimeo.com/81056018

You should have said in the Vimeo post that it was shot on a BMPCC in RAW. That way you would have gotten hundreds of views and rave reviews about how awesome it was.
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post #292 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Flinty, that's really not what I said. Re-read my post.

What I did say is that I'm finding the RX10 so capable, it will probably be the last 2K camera I'll buy. I didn't project when the masses will embrace 4K. Trust me though, it will be sooner than many of us think as prices drop and HDMI 2.0 is implemented.

I'd like to start shooting in 4K sooner than later since I know I'll have a large screen 4K UHDTV within a few years. Since 4K looks excellent now, down-rez'd on a 2K display, it makes sense to me to start archiving things I shoot in 4K. It would look great now and much better later when viewed on a true 4K display.

With that said, I'm not buying a 6lb 4K camera now. I'll wait for both weight and prices to drop. Most importantly, all other aspects of PQ must be there in addition to the extra resolution, otherwise I'd be shooting everything with a Galaxy Note. smile.gif

In the interim, I'm tickled with the RX10 and feel no rush at all to move to 4K.

I will not be buying any more AV products that are not 4K because it is quite clear where the future is and that it is already here. Unless one really has to I think it is not a good idea generally because 4K is going to be the effective standard within a year IMO, and if you wait a bit chances are you will get a much better product in terms of IQ.

I don't think it is a question of the masses embracing 4K, rather it will be more that manufacturers will simply adopt it as the upper end of their product capability. If they leave it out they risk losing part of their market share to those who don't, so they will all include it.

For enthusiasts the pressure to upgrade equipment is going to be strong going in to the end of 2014/early 2015.
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post #293 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

4K 8K why are most ,[not me] still happy with DVD,thats all i hear on tv buy the such and such DVD for xmas.

In part because DVD titles are much cheaper than the BD equivalents, and in part because people often refer to BDs generically as "DVDs". The average Joe probably doesn't know the difference.
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post #294 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

You should have said in the Vimeo post that it was shot on a BMPCC in RAW. That way you would have gotten hundreds of views and rave reviews about how awesome it was.

Aint that the truth!!!! biggrin.gif
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post #295 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 01:52 PM
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In part because DVD titles are much cheaper than the BD equivalents, and in part because people often refer to BDs generically as "DVDs". The average Joe probably doesn't know the difference.

Thats wrong on both counts where i am anyway.
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post #296 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 04:17 PM
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I hope it is not too late to ask Santa for the new camera smile.gif

Hope you have a receptive Santa. wink.gif
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post #297 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 05:42 PM
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Hope you have a receptive Santa. wink.gif
Santa put a GX7 and 100-300mm under the tree this afternoon for me. With my x-ray vision I could see through the wrapping paper. He also will be putting the untested Panasonic GM1 there for Ms Santa.

I like the Christmas spirit!
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post #298 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 07:40 PM
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Nice video Ken! Im really impressed with the resolution of that camera. Your shots are really well composed. You shoot like mark, and I like that. And you were careful enough to take advantage of the available dynamic range of the camera. One of the best RX10 videos around. Much better than the one published by Sony.
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post #299 of 455 Old 12-05-2013, 10:43 PM
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Thanks Bill.

The jitter in the long shot of the bugle was probably more a function of me trying to be steady, and not being as successful as I'd have liked, in the large crowd. There was no change in the OIS setting. I actually had to do 3 takes of that shot because people were knocking in to me as they came up the stairs!

The more I use the RX10, the more I'm impressed with its video output. Even the audio is above par with a nicely balanced sound that's not tinny and has some nice lower frequency response.

the pq looks amazing, but i too see the jittering, almost in every shot. i would think with such a short reach that the ois would be better
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post #300 of 455 Old 12-06-2013, 04:57 AM
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Fishy, I see jitter in only 3 clips. Two of those were long shots (the bugle and the guy taking pictures) and the third was the shot of the Legos from above. That was an awkward angle and I needed some tele reach to get the framing I wanted. All other shots look quite stable to me.

All shots were made with the Standard OIS and not the Active, which provides additional stabilization. I've seen no loss in PQ with Active and perhaps that's the mode I should have used, at least for some shots. Still learning the camera. I'll provide a comparison of the 2 modes this weekend so that everyone can see that PQ is not altered from one mode to the other.

With that said, if you read my initial review in post #177, I indicated that the OIS in this camera was not as good as I've had in other Sonys, but it's certainly not bad. I think with a bit more careful shooting and perhaps a bit of 'on-the-fly-bracing', long shots can be improved. The use of Active IS should also help.

From what I'm seeing with the PQ, it's worth a bit of extra effort. smile.gif
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