Sony RX10 with 24-200mm f2.8 zoom and 1" sensor ! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:18 AM
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I damn near ordered one so that I could be first here with tests! A few days ago I found on another forum that it has very limited exposure bracketing for stills. I'm learning and enjoying HDR (High Dynamic Range) processing. I'm putting off any decisions until next year.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:46 AM
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I know it doesn't bother anyone else,but I'm still going to complain about it - it kills me that this camera has a 30 minute clip length limit.

I really wanted to be able to ditch my camcorder frown.gif
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:47 AM
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This appears to be an online guide to the RX10. It shows that it does do exposure bracketing. It also has info on video modes.

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/wi-fi/dsc/2013-3/4530335111/eng/contents/contentslist01.html
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:27 PM
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^ Good find Bill, thanks. I was looking for that this morning and only found a sketchy guide that was concentrating more on control location.

Bill, you couldn't have ordered one anyway. It's not due out until the beginning of December.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

....Bill, you couldn't have ordered one anyway. It's not due out until the beginning of December.
I've been hovering over the B&H prebuy page. Stress is involved.
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

I know it doesn't bother anyone else,but I'm still going to complain about it - it kills me that this camera has a 30 minute clip length limit.

I really wanted to be able to ditch my camcorder frown.gif
30 minutes is a bother. I was shooting a boring presentation. At 29.99999 the RX100 quit. It took a second or less to press the record button. The video event was to be distributed on DVD, Blu-Ray, thumb drive and Vimeo. I put in a cross fade transition at the 1 second gap. So far, nobody cares.

The other Bill
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:58 PM
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This is a video forum. Stills don't count, but If anyone shoots or cares about still photos in the RAW format, Adobe put out a "Release Canditate" update for Lightroom 5 that includes the RX10.

FWIW, Lightroom is a stellar video clip manager system!
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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RX10 sample video and link to instruction manual downloads :


More video samples:
https://www.youtube.com/user/slrclubreview?feature=watch


http://www.sony-asia.com/support/product/dsc-rx10/manual
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:30 AM
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Those aren't the detailed manuals jogiba, they're pretty sketchy. There was a link on another site to a more detailed manual, but I can't find it. There should be a general release of that manual within the next few weeks.
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:48 AM
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Some videotest

 

RX10 vs A7R vs A7 vs 7D

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnXYhXPvXeo&feature=c4-overview&list=UUa60_8tp4OlhjniqfKyvl-w

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5zYH7YhRW8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUa60_8tp4OlhjniqfKyvl-w

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmj17IFjyT4&list=UUa60_8tp4OlhjniqfKyvl-w

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Old 11-10-2013, 09:04 AM
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Anybody posting here actually ordered one?
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:21 AM
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Not out yet Bill. Beginning of December seems to be the date.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:29 AM
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not out yet Bill. Beginning of December seems to be the date.
I meant write "on order" or "pre order". My mouse has hovered over the B&H pre-order button, but no right click so far.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1009156-REG/sony_dscrx10_b_cyber_shot_dsc_rx10_digital_camera.html
Delivery is supposed to start Dec 2.
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Perhaps a better instruction manual:

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/wi-fi/dsc/2013-3/4530335111/eng/contents/contentslist01.html

Hey Ken, that was the link I gave you back in #93 on this thread! You even wrote "Good Find" Perhaps your memory is related to my memory. (Grinning here!)
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:24 PM
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Oh yeah Bill, it's all over. Hopefully the drooling doesn't start next! wink.gif
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

I meant write "on order" or "pre order". My mouse has hovered over the B&H pre-order button, but no right click so far.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1009156-REG/sony_dscrx10_b_cyber_shot_dsc_rx10_digital_camera.html
Delivery is supposed to start Dec 2.

Bill, I'm waiting to see who gets it in first. I like B&H, but often they don't get new product in first. Amazon might beat them. You'd think the Sony stores would be first, but they rarely are.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Bill, I'm waiting to see who gets it in first. I like B&H, but often they don't get new product in first. Amazon might beat them. You'd think the Sony stores would be first, but they rarely are.
For me, there is an almost 10% price difference between B&H and Amazon due to sales tax.
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:01 PM
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That's certainly enough to tip the scales. wink.gif

Here in N.Y., we get taxed one way or the other. frown.gif
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Old 11-11-2013, 02:51 AM
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Once December rolls around, you may also want to check RX10 availability at Adorama - no sales tax (outside of New York) there either smile.gif
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Once December rolls around, you may also want to check RX10 availability at Adorama - no sales tax (outside of New York) there either smile.gif
My wife and are certainly not major customers at B&H. However, they have treated us so well, I couldn't go anywhere else! In one case, there was a drop in price two days after my wife ordered a camera. In a ten minute exchange of emails, they posted a credit on her credit card. In another case I bought a camera three weeks before a three week trip out of the country. On a simple email they extended their no questions asked return policy to the end of the trip in case I didn't like the camera.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:39 AM
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:09 PM
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I thought this was a fair review. My own view is that if one wants to really be creative in video and stills, it is best to go with an interchangeable lens, big-sensor camera - 1" sensor , f2.8, a limit of 200mm do not cut it.

For example, f2.8 and a 1" sensor is getting less than 1/4th the light compared to an f2 lens and an APS-C sensor with as many pixels. That can be the difference between ISO800 and ISO3200 in dim settings. Shallow DOF is really effective in many shots and you have to work hard to get it with a small sensor, and max 200mm just does not do it for many settings - wildlife, zoos, candids of people.

A big sensor and interchangeable lenses just gives you so many more possibilities, and now with mirrorless this does not have to come at a cost in terms of size/weight.

Going big sensor, interchangeable is a big step up from camcorders, P&S and even 1", without being big. The RX10 copied the best of Panasonic's LX7 and ZS200 except the price.

For $1300 you can really do much better, with room to grow.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:26 PM
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Now I have a very different slant on this Mark. I'm really enjoying my GX7 and it truly takes superb videos. But, as I've found (and it's a huge 'but' IMO), interchangeable lenses are great but also, when in the field, a royal PIA.

As an example, when we were at the zoo, I found it to be a true juggling act to remove the lens, install the front and rear dust caps of the lens I was removing, remove the front & rear lens caps of the lens I wanted while holding the other lens and do this without dropping either lens or camera. Additionally, I'm always paranoid about getting dust on the sensor. Been there, done that, it's happened to me and it aint pretty. As a result I try to be very quick while doing the lens switch. It's not a good thing when you do get the dust on the sensor and you can forget about removing it in the field, you're stuck with it. Hell, you'll be lucky doing it yourself at home. If the dust on the sensor is in a bad spot, it can ruin picture after picture or video after video. So I'm really not so happy about changing lenses at all. It's not all gold, it really isn't. I think Sony did a fantastic job in choosing the zoom range they did for a single lens solution. Nice at the wide end and nice at the far reach. Sure, an interchangeable lens system will give you more choices at either end, but at the expense of buying more 'specialty' lenses, having to change those lenses in the field, not getting some shots because of the time it takes to change a lens, to say nothing of running the risk of getting dirt on the sensor. Pros & cons with either system. But I like having an 'all-in-one' lens solution, it's really appealing to me the more I'm dealing with an interchangeable system.

As for the reach of the 200mm lens, I'll disagree there. At the zoo, I had a 14-42 and a 45-175 lens. Naturally at the zoo, I used the 45-175mm lens about 90% of the time. But here's the major point, there was only one time when I wanted more than 175mm, one time. Of course with the lossless doubler in the GX7, that's easy to do. But the point is had I only had the 175mm reach, I would have been perfectly fine. My need for this reach is probably greatest at a place like the zoo, so I really don't anticipate much of a need for anything greater. I suspect, based on my years of past usage, this one lens will work for me 95% of the time. I'll gladly sacrifice that other 5% for the ease of one lens. In fact, there's a good chance that even with an interchangeable lens system, I won't have that one lens with me anyway for that other 5% when it does happen.

Keep in mind that with the RX10, you can probably go a bit further into the zoom by using the 'clear zoom' feature, though I probably would only venture in to this area when I absolutely had to. Even then I would only go slightly into the digital range. But it's there for those 'emergencies'.

Now here's another aspect of this discussion, speed. Doing run n gun, good luck trying to get that great shot or clip while you have the wrong lens attached to your camera. By the time you change lenses, the shot will probably be gone. Add to that the factor of 'rushing', presenting the greatest opportunity for something bad to happen, like dropping a lens.

As for low light, from what I've read, the RX10 is truly excellent in low light. I don't think you can be 100% assured of accurately comparing 2 cameras solely on sensor size and pixel count. Is the sensor back illuminated which size for size provides better low light? What about the camera's electronics? That too plays a role in the bottom line low light performance. So yes, it gives you a general indicator of performance, but it's not the entire story. Again, reviewers seem to be very pleased with low light.

DOF? Mark, you've demonstrated many times with very small sensor cameras that you can get nice DOF. Of course you'll get a shallower depth of field with larger sensor cameras and bigger glass, but even there it can work both ways. A very shallow DOF makes focusing that much harder. But if you really want it, just shoot at the longer end of the zoom of the RX10 and shoot wide open. That will give you some nice DOF.

We haven't even discussed audio and the RX10, according to Steve, has some superb audio. I really missed that when I stopped using the NEX VG30. That camera had utterly superb audio. These smaller cameras just don't have it. Even the GH3 left something to be desired on the audio front. I found sounds produced in front of that camera were very attenuated. I actually found the GX7 audio to be better, but nothing compared to the VG30. Now if the RX10 can cut that gap, that would be another huge plus.

I absolutely agree with Steven, the RX10 seems to be a huge surprise. The more I see, the more I read, the more I find myself impressed. I hadn't considered this thing for a second until I started reading & watching and seeing the pitfalls of interchangeable lenses in the field. I think there's something special going on here and I do think some people will overlook this camera for reasons that might not be justified. Constant aperture, excellent zoom range, great audio, great controls, great build quality and weather sealing and some really nice features are for me, really intriguing.

I think Steve summed it up in words that I could see myself writing since it's the single most important thing I look for in any camera "This camera, much like a Nikon V1 or V2, will not really give you that POP but it will give you more realism..more grit..more of what your eye actually sees. I've said it more often than I care to admit, I'm always looking for an image that mirrors what my eyes saw. That says it all for me.

In the end, it will all come down to PQ. If the PQ is there, I know I'll be happy given the great features the unit has. But if it doesn't, it won't be the first time I've been disappointed.
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Old 11-11-2013, 06:27 PM
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Ken, who is going to order one first? You or me? (grin)

Your essay reminds me of the debate I had with myself 14 months ago when I was trying to justify spending $700 on the RX100 point&shoot.

I once had two Nikkormats, 10 lenses and a huge hand built darkroom. Now I have a laptop, $300 in software, an RX100, a few HD TVs and a photo printer. I never did video then, so I know I'm better at that. But, I think my photography is better too.

Caps are rude, but I HATE CHANGING LENSES and packing gear around.
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:54 PM
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"But the point is had I only had the 175mm."

The point is you actually had a 350mm lens - that is the 35mm-equivalent given the m43 2X crop factor. The 200mm max reach of the RX100 is in 35mm-equivalent terms. So if you found the "175mm" needed, the 200mm lens will not be adequate - you were shooting with a lens that was actually almost twice as long.

The reviewer knows little about audio and performed no test. The RX10 audio may be good, or not - but at least there are manual controls (I have found Sony audio to be good in general). But the audio is compressed only (AC3 or AAC). Canon audio is uncompressed 16-bit PCM (better than CD quality) - that is clearly better. There are still mics and preamps that matter too, of course.

And, let's be careful, that review very clearly states that the big-sensor cameras he has used are better in low light than the RX10. There is no way the 1" sensor will be, no matter what electronic tricks. This is not a big deal - if you do not ever want to change lenses, the RX10 camera is the best compromise yet between a real system camera with a big sensor and a convenient P&S. And I really like the built-in ND filter.
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Old 11-11-2013, 09:24 PM
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Mark, I'm sure you know I'm aware of the crop factor with the micro 4/3 system, but I still don't see the zoom on the Sony as being an issue. Having watched a number of the videos where shooters are using the zoom incessantly, it's clear the ratio from wide to tight is still very nice. Although I used the 45-175 the majority of the time, I was rarely at the full 175. More importantly, there were several times I knew I'd have a better shot with the 14-42 lens, but I was too rushed to change lenses for fear of missing the shot. So I went with the wrong lens and was not happy with the shot. So even though I had a full system camera, I still compromised the system by not using the right lens. Sometimes this will be the result of laziness and other times it will be because the shot is there for a brief moment that won't allow the luxury of changing the lens.

This is why I can see both a system camera as well as a fixed lens camera as being a compromise in a given situation. The shot and the timing of the shot will dictate which is the better compromise. There will be times when either camera may let you down due to the situation. I really don't look at one being more of a compromise than the other. You just need to understand how you use the camera. I like both and will probably keep my GX7 even if I'm happy with the RX10. Frankly, I'll be tickled if the RX10 can match the GX7 PQ.

In the end, I'll gladly give up some reach to get the enhanced convenience and heightened chances of having one lens, with the right focal length for the shot, especially if timing is critical. For me the Zeiss lens will give me the better overall experience. As I said, for me. Nothing wrong with us taking different approaches on this. There's no right or wrong answer here. smile.gif

More reach is always nice when it's occasionally needed, but it's a pain in the butt for me to carry lots of glass, juggle lenses in the field, worry about the real issue of sensor dust and risk the possibility of missing the shot. I shoot WA more often than the extreme of the telephoto anyway.

Regarding the audio, Steve has apparently used many cameras and I don't think you need to be an audio expert to know when one camera's audio sounds better than the other. But regardless of the compression scheme, I believe in these small cameras the quality of the mikes are the most important factor. I do agree though, regardless of size, I've generally found the onboard audio of the Sonys to be better. I don't know that I was ever wowed by the onboard mikes on my Canon XA10.
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Old 11-11-2013, 09:40 PM
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"Regarding the audio, Steve has apparently used many cameras and I don't think you need to be an audio expert to know when one camera's audio sounds better than the other."

Actually, being an audio expert gives you the ability to know what to listen for, just as being a video expert gives you the ability to know what to look for. I don't think we want to dis expertise! The fact is that most camera users, including pros and almost all video reviewers, know little about audio and most of the videos one sees posted have none (a combination of lack of expertise and lack of care). I do not think this is a big deal, and I am sure someone will pipe up that if you are SERIOUS about audio you should use an external recorder anyway (I record using DSD when I am seriously recording audio, but have a lower standard for video). I only really object to audio AGC, and the RX10 has manual audio control, unlike almost all previous Sony consumer cameras and camcorders. Clearly the RX10 audio should not be a deterrent to its acquisition.
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Old 11-11-2013, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Ken, who is going to order one first? You or me? (grin)

Your essay reminds me of the debate I had with myself 14 months ago when I was trying to justify spending $700 on the RX100 point&shoot.

I once had two Nikkormats, 10 lenses and a huge hand built darkroom. Now I have a laptop, $300 in software, an RX100, a few HD TVs and a photo printer. I never did video then, so I know I'm better at that. But, I think my photography is better too.

Caps are rude, but I HATE CHANGING LENSES and packing gear around.

I hear you Bill. Here I was at something as simple and relatively unpressured as the zoo and it was still a nuisance changing lenses and worrying about dust intrusion and dropping lenses.

I think in his review, Steve really nailed many of the key points I'd been thinking about with the Sony. They may have designed a unique camera here that potentially attains the video quality of larger and more expensive cameras, yet provides features that many system cameras don't. It will be interesting to see.

I've planned on getting it as soon as it's released. I'm reluctant to pre-order only because I want to see who gets it first. smile.gif
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Old 11-12-2013, 04:24 AM
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I feel your pain. I hardly ever take the trusty 14-140 off my GH3 - but when I do, it's because I have to (for low light) or because I want a different look.

Yes, it's a PITA - but it's nice to have the option.

My camcorder sits on the shelf because its lens is inflexible and its sensor is too small.

I like the look of the RX10, and am really really tempted to pre-order one, but I'm concerned that, after the novelty wears off, it will end up on the shelf next to the camcorder (which I'll have to keep because of the RX10's 30 minute limit).

Bill B.
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