Blackmagic Pocket ---VS--- EOS M (LOW LIGHT) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 104 Old 10-20-2013, 09:54 PM
Advanced Member
 
brunerww's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Let's see what Bill Bruner has to say; he has just got one and knows what he is doing (audio too!)...

Thank you for the kind words. I hope to be able to live up to them. In the meantime, here is one way to deal with the BMPCC battery challenge when you're shooting at the beach smile.gif



P.S. - as I learn the camera, it is becoming less frustrating to shoot with (actually it's fun). A couple of tidbits before I post the full review:

1. My Olympus 4/3 lens with the MA-1 adapter autofocuses faster on the BMPCC than on the GH3 (!)

2. As everyone knows, the built-in mic on the BMPCC is awful, but, using external mics, audio was not an issue for either camera. Audio purists might disagree, but I would be comfortable recording critical audio with either the BMPCC or the GH3 -without an external recorder for dual audio and without a JuicedLink or other preamp - with one minor caveat, which I will explain in the full review smile.gif

More when I get back to the mainland. I am seriously considering paying someone to color this review because I don't really have the time to do it myself. Yes, I know, that violates the ethos of the rugged video enthusiast, who does everything him or herself, but, sadly, the government has reopened and I have to go back to work frown.gif

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
brunerww is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 12:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Tugela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 62
The government does work? wink.gif
Tugela is offline  
post #93 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 01:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flintyplus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: yeovil somerset
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

And here it is. Unfortunatelly I cant share most of my videos because they are too personal - familly and friends stuff. But anyway, I joined some BMPCC videos to show you some stuff:


1. Those are all "real-life" videos, made with no care. Point and shoot style.

2. Some shots are graded ( all graded by me - keep in mind that im not a professional colorist and im still learning how to work with ProRes - but I cant get images looking as good as those in my cameras)

3. Some shots are ungraded

4. Youtube compression is really bad. I can upload the original if anyone is interested.

5. The audio is far from great. Enough for my needs, since I dont use internal audio.

6. I wont even talk about the latitude, amount of detail and color

7. In the second shot a 50mm f1.4 canon lens was used. It becomes a 150mm lens on the BMPCC. As you can see, its really easy to nail the focus. There is focus pull going on between the subject and the building in the background. And check out how it performs with the bricks. Great!

8. I dont know anyone having problems with exposure. When you shoot with the BM, its really easy to work with exposure. You just have to overexpose right under the clipping point of the zebras. That creates a really bright video. Thats the best way to have good shadows. The thing is in post you have to know how to bring down that "overexposure" as you can see in the pier scene. That is not a flaw, thats actually a GREAT feature. If some guys dont know how to use it we shouldnt care. Its not a problem with the camera.
.

So you have a BMPC now:confused:i have never knocked it as such only the fact that to get its best quality the footage has to be corrected,for me i take what i get.You lamented the sound i showed https://vimeo.com/77385254 i am happy personaly as long as i get reasonable quality from the cam/camera i am using
flintyplus is offline  
post #94 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
thedest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Fair enough (and many thanks for the video), but on audio buying a good mic is not enough - the internal audio is bad whatever the mic - so you need a separate recorder and mic; a big pain. Some of the graded shots look perfectly fine. The RX10, if it puts out 4:2:2 uncompressed and also does not line skip like all the other big sensor cameras, could be interesting, but would require an external video recorder to get Pro Res. Better ergonomics in many ways than the BM PC. We will have to see.

I have heard some guys talking about the Rode Pro being a great alternative. They are talking about it boosting the audio or something like that. Man I know nothing about audio biggrin.gif

And im afraid that the RX10 is a lost cause in that aspect. You wont have "uncompressed" video or 4:2:2 color. What happens in the RX10 is:

1- The sensor captures a 5k RAW 4:4:4 image @ 60fps
2- The processor reads that entire signal and converts it to an 8-bit 4:2:0 video with crushed DR
3 - The HDMI outputs the uncompressed version of that already compressed video

What that means is that you will be able to use an external recorder and keep the same quality of the video being recorded on your SD card. The image will be exactly the same. The only difference is that you will be recording in a different format - you can record in ProRes 422. The codec is 422 but the video will be 420. No real advantages in image quality.

My hope is on the next "GH3". Im waiting for good stuff from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Thank you for the kind words. I hope to be able to live up to them. In the meantime, here is one way to deal with the BMPCC battery challenge when you're shooting at the beach smile.gif

[/URL]

There are 2 great ways to deal with the battery:

1. The new BM battery. 15 bucks and lasts for 50 minutes (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/994420-REG/blackmagic_design_bmpccass_batt_pocket_cinema_camera.html)

2. If you are using a rig, this base will give you 5 hours of nonstop recording (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1007270-REG/switronix_pkt_basek_pocketbase_battery_holder_with.html)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

I am seriously considering paying someone to color this review because I don't really have the time to do it myself. Yes, I know, that violates the ethos of the rugged video enthusiast, who does everything him or herself, but, sadly, the government has reopened and I have to go back to work frown.gif

Hybrid Camera Revolution

What NLE are you using? I've found a way to grade each scene in 20-30 seconds. Its pretty fast.
thedest is offline  
post #95 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 08:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 108
"1- The sensor captures a 5k RAW 4:4:4 image @ 60fps
2- The processor reads that entire signal and converts it to an 8-bit 4:2:0 video with crushed DR
3 - The HDMI outputs the uncompressed version of that already compressed video"

Point 2 is to conform to AVCHD and that is the stream written to the card. We know all about that.

Your point three is wrong (please stop talking about things you have no knowledge about). A more reliable source (DPReview) says: "In addition, the camera's footage can be output over HDMI, either with settings overlays for monitoring or without, for recording (and, we're told, with the option for uncompressed 4:2:2 video output). " Do you have any information that says that is wrong? It could be wrong, but until someone tests this, we wait and see.
markr041 is offline  
post #96 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 08:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
brunerww's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
http://www.eoshd.com/content/11350/depth-test-5d-mark-iii-7d-raw-vs-blackmagic-pocket-vs-gh3

Well done shootout from Andrew Reid at eoshd. My only quibble with this is how he embraces Magic Lantern RAW for the Canons (which he admits has brought the 7D back from the dead), and dismisses RAW for the BMPCC because ProRes is 'good enough'.

That said, this strikes me as a fair-minded review and makes it clear that, at $995, the BMPCC with its secondary codec runs with the big dogs.

Imagine what it will be able to do with CinemaDNG RAW.

The other thing Andrew doesn't mention is stills. I call my blog the Hybrid Camera Revolution for a reason. The BMPCC has me carrying two cameras again. Ugh.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
brunerww is offline  
post #97 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
thedest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Yeah.. Im just inventing things mark. rolleyes.gif

"You record an 8-bit 4:2:0 signal "as" ProRes or DNxHD 10-bit 4:2:2. You have an intraframe codec for editing. You can as well take the AVCHD and transcode it with 5D2RGB.



Once your hardware and software can deal with AVCHD, the output quality can theoretically be even better (ProRes is a copy, nothing can top original data). In reality, there is no visible difference. Don't believe it? Test for yourself.



Atomos never cleared the confusion, they saw all the DSLR aficionados as lucky chance. So they fanned the hype further. It was Atomos at Photokina who announced which of the new VDSLRs had clean HDMI out. Some had no full resolution, some had artifacts, some produced psf like the GH2, but of no damned importance."



Videos were never the specialty of DPreview. Specially high end stuff.

Wanna bet? tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

Well done shootout from Andrew Reid at eoshd. [/URL]

Thats crazy stuff.

Better Dynamic Range performance on the ProRes pocket than in the 5D Magic Lantern RAW.

According to him the prores from the BMPCC is so good that you dont need the ML RAW.

thedest is offline  
post #98 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
thedest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
One more thing to think about:

Do you really think that SONY would launch a MID-END CONSUMER camera with a processor capable of delivering AVCHD via SD and PRORES 422 via HDMI? Sony launches a camera with a new button and shouts to the world. If that camera had 422 im pretty sure it would have been featured in their main page.

And its not smart to deliver 422 only via HDMI. If the camera can deliver 422, why not via SD?
thedest is offline  
post #99 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 10:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

One more thing to think about:

Do you really think that SONY would launch a MID-END CONSUMER camera with a processor capable of delivering AVCHD via SD and PRORES 422 via HDMI? Sony launches a camera with a new button and shouts to the world. If that camera had 422 im pretty sure it would have been featured in their main page.

And its not smart to deliver 422 only via HDMI. If the camera can deliver 422, why not via SD?

The point is we do not care what you "think" when we are talking about facts. What you stated as a fact is not based on anything, you made it up (what is output from HDMI from the RX10). This is not to say I disagree with your speculation that it is unlikely it is 4:2:2, and even with your opinion that DPReview is not a great source for video information. We agree on most things, except evidently on care about facts

Many of us have grown tired of correcting your misstatements of facts, so just please stick to what you know (which is a lot) and even to what you prefer, but check your facts. It would be great if the RX10 did output 4:2:2, but I am not betting on it.
markr041 is offline  
post #100 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
thedest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Speculation is a big part of what happens in forums, mark. You guys are getting angry too easily tongue.gif

And im totally grounded - thats not the first camera to have "uncompressed" HDMI out where you can record in a 422 wrap. There are plenty of them in the market.

When Sony launches a camera with features like 422, they make sure everyone knows about it. http://store.sony.com/xdcam-hd422-camcorder-zid27-PMW100/cat-27-catid-All-Professional-Video-Cameras

The camera has 422 in its name and in the specs tab. The RX10 has nothing about the HDMI output or about color sampling.

And Sony has a tradition of avoiding high end features in consumer camcorders to protect the sales of the professional cameras.

Those are pretty strong facts.

The guy from Dpreview probably made an interview where the guy from Sony said: "Yeah, you can use that HDMI output to record in ProRes 422 using the Ninja..." And he transformed that in something completely wrong.
thedest is offline  
post #101 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 10:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,244
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 418 Post(s)
Liked: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

i have never knocked it as such only the fact that to get its best quality the footage has to be corrected,for me i take what i get.You lamented the sound i showed https://vimeo.com/77385254 i am happy personaly as long as i get reasonable quality from the cam/camera i am using

Yup, I'd agree with that. This business of color grading is beyond me if the camera is rendering an output that's already reasonably accurate. Judging from the myriad of abysmal 'color gradings' I see from this camera and others, I would say a great big "NO THANKS". Much of this grading looks almost like what I'd get by throwing a sepia filter on my project. In the end the dynamic range means nothing to me if the color isn't accurate.

Can you see using this thing the way we typically use our cameras? Go to the zoo, shoot family events etc. and then come home and spend hours to try to get something that can even come close to what you saw when you produced those shots...and with a very slim chance of even coming close.

Different strokes I guess, but not for me.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #102 of 104 Old 10-21-2013, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
thedest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Judging from the myriad of abysmal 'color gradings' I see from this camera and others, I would say a great big "NO THANKS". Much of this grading looks almost like what I'd get by throwing a sepia filter on my project. In the end the dynamic range means nothing to me if the color isn't accurate.

Thats totally true tongue.gif

Thats because working with LOG videos is different than working with LINEAR videos. Some people buy the BM and think that the correct way to work with the images is simply to throw some pre-set from magic bullet looks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Can you see using this thing the way we typically use our cameras? Go to the zoo, shoot family events etc. and then come home and spend hours to try to get something that can even come close to what you saw when you produced those shots...and with a very slim chance of even coming close.

I actually can see me doing that. I only use my NEX and my CANON with flat profiles, so I always have to post process them. Recreating the original colors of the scene is very easy, you just have to pump up the information. You can do that in 30 seconds once you get the hang of it. But I agree, thats not for everyone. Some people hate to post process. But for me, thats actually the fun part. I really like to play with the videos in post. Its like a therapy.

Working with ProRes LOG is easy, but you have to learn how. RAW is something totally different. Its easy as hell to work with RAW. Im sure that with the new firmware people will start uploading better videos. LOL. I also hate to see those "creamy" and "overexposed" videos. tongue.gif
thedest is offline  
post #103 of 104 Old 10-22-2013, 12:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flintyplus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: yeovil somerset
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup, I'd agree with that. This business of color grading is beyond me if the camera is rendering an output that's already reasonably accurate. Judging from the myriad of abysmal 'color gradings' I see from this camera and others, I would say a great big "NO THANKS". Much of this grading looks almost like what I'd get by throwing a sepia filter on my project. In the end the dynamic range means nothing to me if the color isn't accurate.

Can you see using this thing the way we typically use our cameras? Go to the zoo, shoot family events etc. and then come home and spend hours to try to get something that can even come close to what you saw when you produced those shots...and with a very slim chance of even coming close.

Different strokes I guess, but not for me.

Yes being a videoholic i take too much film for C/G,modern equipment gives pretty good color IMO anyway.
flintyplus is offline  
post #104 of 104 Old 10-27-2013, 07:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
brunerww's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Michael Reichmann at Luminous Landscape has posted, in my opinion, the definitive Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera review - subtitled "The Agony and the Ecstasy":

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/pages.php/reviews/camcorders/black_magic_pocket_camera.shtml

As Michael says, this is not a camcorder - and is not for everyone.

But he also says, "I've shot video with just about all of the available video-capable DSLRs, the Canon 5D MKII and III, the Nikon D800 and D7000, the Panasonic GH3 and a wide variety of other compact system cameras. None of them can hold a candle to the image quality available from the BMPCC, or come within 3-5 stops of its dynamic range and gradeability. And that's without raw yet!"

After shooting with this little cinema camera for a few weeks, that pretty much sums up how I feel as well.

Best,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
brunerww is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off