Blackmagic Pocket ---VS--- EOS M (LOW LIGHT) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Little comparison between the EOS-M and the Blackmagic Pocket

- Both are using slow lenses

- Both are at 800 ISO


OBSERVATIONS

.

.
- In the circles you can see A LOT of ugly noise in the EOS M, while the Blackmagic renders the image beautifully. Imagine that camera with an aperture of 2.0 or more! AMAZING!

- The square shows A LOT of macro blocking. Those ugly squares with multiple colors.
.

.
- In the red circle you can see blown out details, while the Blackmagic renders that easily with the 13 stops of Dynamic Range

- The bottom circle shows how artificial and ugly the colors of the EOS M are. They look fluorescent. You can also see HOW LOW the resolution of the EOS M is. The chinese letters are just a black blur. The EOS M has a resolution lower than a 720p camera, so you lose A LOT of detail
.

.
Here you can see how cinematic the Blackmagick looks next to the ugly, artificial and full of artifacts image of the EOS M



- Considering that the test was made with a slow lens, in an ugly place, with a bad composition, we can imagine how big the difference will be taking more care in the next tests.

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post #2 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Little comparison between the EOS-M and the Blackmagic Pocket

- Both are using slow lenses

- Both are at 800 ISO


OBSERVATIONS

.

.
- In the circles you can see A LOT of ugly noise in the EOS M, while the Blackmagic renders the image beautifully. Imagine that camera with an aperture os 2.0 or more! AMAZING!

- The square shows A LOT of macro blocking. Those ugly squares with multiple colors.


I don't understand the premise of this test. What are the implications here?

These are two completely different cameras. If shooting at night, a faster lens would be used.

Either way, the noise can be fixed with Neat Video.
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post #3 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by xfws View Post

I don't understand the premise of this test. What are the implications here?

Its a comparison between 10bit 422 vs 8bit 420. Its pretty clear my friend. The Blackmagic is a revolution at a consumer price tag. And the implication is, if you have 1k to spend on a video-camera, you are better of with the Blackmagic instead of any other 8 bit camera (in terms of image quality)
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Originally Posted by xfws View Post

These are two completely different cameras. If shooting at night, a faster lens would be used.

They have similar prices and they are aimed at prosumer + users. Some people buy the EOS M to make videos, so for those people thinking about buying a mirrorless or a DSLR for videos, its nice to know that for a similar price they can get something MILES better.

Even shooting with a slow lens and having a tiny sensor the Blackmagic can create a GREAT low light performance, and thats a GREAT example. Its out-performing an APS-C camera!!
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Originally Posted by xfws View Post

Either way, the noise can be fixed with Neat Video.

Please, run that EOS M video in neat video and show me if it can be compared to the Blackmagic footage. Neat Video is FAR from a great solution. Makes the image soft, preserves macro blocking etc. And noise is only ONE of the many bad things in the EOS-M video
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post #4 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Its a comparison between 10bit 422 vs 8bit 420. Its pretty clear my friend. The Blackmagic is a revolution at a consumer price tag. And the implication is, if you have 1k to spend on a video-camera, you are better of with the Blackmagic instead of any other 8 bit camera (in terms of image quality)
They have similar prices and they are aimed at prosumer + users. Some people buy the EOS M to make videos, so for those people thinking about buying a mirrorless or a DSLR for videos, its nice to know that for a similar price they can get something MILES better.

Even shooting with a slow lens and having a tiny sensor the Blackmagic can create a GREAT low light performance, and thats a GREAT example. Its out-performing an APS-C camera!!
Please, run that EOS M video in neat video and show me if it can be compared to the Blackmagic footage. Neat Video is FAR from a great solution. Makes the image soft, preserves macro blocking etc. And noise is only ONE of the many bad things in the EOS-M video

I was commenting that the ugly noise you noted with EOS M could be fixed with Neat Video, but....

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera - 13 Stops of Dynamic Range, CinemaDNG RAW, Apple ProRes 422... body only @ Amazon $1,295:
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Magic-CINECAMPOCHDMFT-Blackmagic-Pocket/dp/B00CWLSHUK/ref=sr_1_4/179-1047949-1382843?ie=UTF8&qid=1381618383&sr=8-4&keywords=black+magic+cinema+pocket+camera

Canon EOS M - MOV/H.264... body only @ Amazon $249.99:
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-EOS-Compact-System-Camera/dp/B00B2A1KEC/ref=sr_1_1/179-1047949-1382843?ie=UTF8&qid=1381618411&sr=8-1&keywords=eos+m+body+only

Not comparable!
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post #5 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The actual price of the Blackmagic Pocket is 995USD + you can get a lens for it for 100-200 USD.

That price for the EOS M is a "fake" price. The original price was much higher than that. The only reason its that low is because people hated it, so they were not selling well. The next EOS M will probably have a much higher price.

And the comparison is all about 10-bit 422 VS 8-bit 420 in two "pocket" cameras, so they are totally comparable. Im comparing bit depth, codecs, color info, dynamic range etc. So it doesnt matter if its a 300 bucks mirrorless or a 1500USD camcorder. They all have the same limitations!
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post #6 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

The actual price of the Blackmagic Pocket is 995USD + you can get a lens for it for 100-200 USD.

That price for the EOS M is a "fake" price. The original price was much higher than that. The only reason its that low is because people hated it, so they were not selling well. The next EOS M will probably have a much higher price.

And the comparison is all about 10-bit 422 VS 8-bit 420 in two "pocket" cameras, so they are totally comparable. Im comparing bit depth, codecs, color info, dynamic range etc. So it doesnt matter if its a 300 bucks mirrorless or a 1500USD camcorder. They all have the same limitations!

"Fake price"? Maybe they marketed it/planned on selling it a year later for $249 as the actual price? Whatever the case, this is October 2013.

The fact remains that it DOES sell for $249. One is a mirrorless, 8-bit camera that shoots MOV/H.264 video. The other is a 10-bit cinema camera that shoots CinemaDNG RAW, Apple ProRes and goes for $995 or more, depending where you buy it.

The video was posted just 2 days ago, when the current prices (and specs) are far apart.

Someone can compare them next to each in a video, but they are not comparable cameras. The EOS M is a still pic camera with a very decent movie function. The BlackMagic is specifically a cinema/video camera.
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post #7 of 104 Old 10-12-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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The BMPCC has been compared to cameras that costs 20x times more and it has done VERY WELL - and no one is whining about it - thats what video enthusiasts do. They are both video cameras, so YES, they can be compared!!

And you are probably not understanding that the main comparison is between the video formats and sensors. So when you compare the BMPPC with the EOS M video, you are comparing it with pretty much most 8-bit cameras, since they share a lot of limitations!
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post #8 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Little comparison between the EOS-M and the Blackmagic Pocket

- Both are using slow lenses

- Both are at 800 ISO


OBSERVATIONS

.

.
- In the circles you can see A LOT of ugly noise in the EOS M, while the Blackmagic renders the image beautifully. Imagine that camera with an aperture of 2.0 or more! AMAZING!

- The square shows A LOT of macro blocking. Those ugly squares with multiple colors.
.

.
- In the red circle you can see blown out details, while the Blackmagic renders that easily with the 13 stops of Dynamic Range

- The bottom circle shows how artificial and ugly the colors of the EOS M are. They look fluorescent. You can also see HOW LOW the resolution of the EOS M is. The chinese letters are just a black blur. The EOS M has a resolution lower than a 720p camera, so you lose A LOT of detail
.

.
Here you can see how cinematic the Blackmagick looks next to the ugly, artificial and full of artifacts image of the EOS M



- Considering that the test was made with a slow lens, in an ugly place, with a bad composition, we can imagine how big the difference will be taking more care in the next tests.


Why put up silly low light films,it all depends on lenses with those,in daylight i have seen many lovely EOS M films,dont talk crap about its low resolution the cinema cameras may have more but so what.
There are many nice looking film on https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos but also some palid looking films that i call poo.
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post #9 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Why put up silly low light films? LOL. So low light performance is not important? And you are wrong saying it all depends on the lenses. Blown out highlights,artificial colors, lack of resolution and macro blocking wont disappear with a better lens, and they are all present on the EOS M video. And the fact that with a smaller sensor and a slow lens the BMPCC can have a great low light performance is a great way to show the importance of dynamic range and a good codec. If you cant see that,, you are better of with any 8-bit cellphone camera.

And im not talking crap, the resolution of the EOS M is pretty much ridiculous. People buy the camera thinking that they're getting a FullHD camera, but they are actually getting a camera with a resolution lower than 720p.

The palid looking films are like that because they were graded like that, its not a camera problem.
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post #10 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 08:01 AM
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https://vimeo.com/76539045 the EOS M has more resolution than the Pana FZ150 in 50P mode

https://vimeo.com/76340752 I prefer this pq

https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/76496237 to this ,Unlike you though i could never hate them like you hate Canon i suspect.
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post #11 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, both EOS M and FZ150 are low in reslution, so thats not impressive. The BMPCC has double the resolution of them. DOUBLE. And resolution is not even the main feature of the BMPCC rolleyes.gif

And its not smart to compare a neutral picture profile to a heavily graded one. You are trying to distort things. The EOS M can be graded to have the same heavy look of your example. And the Blackmagic can be graded to show vivid and natural colors.

But it doesnt matter how hard you try, the EOS M is s smartphone video camera next to the Blackmagic. And I dont hate it, im just showing how the BMPCC is in a different league. Its so good that it made cameras like the EOS M or my NEX look ridiculously bad!

That EOS M video was shot by mark, who is a great shooter. But its pretty clear how artificial and digital that video looks. It will never be as cinematic as the BMPCC. If you cant see that you are being fooled by contrast and saturation.
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post #12 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post

the BMPCC is in a different league.

Exactly my point.
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post #13 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 07:49 PM
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This is really silly. Both cams have their pluses and minuses. Some facts about the cinema cam that have been left out by the OP, are the utterly horrific battery life. You need to carry at least 5 batteries and probably more for any kind of real shooting.

Also, for those that want it, the Blackmagic cannot do 60fps.

Glorifying one cam while demeaning the other without any degree of objectivity, does no one any good.

The Blackmagic does what it does extremely well, but it is not without its significant limitations. You pick the equipment that fits your needs and for many, the Blackmagic, as good as it is, won't suffice. That's just a fact.
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post #14 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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This is really silly. Both cams have their pluses and minuses. Some facts about the cinema cam that have been left out by the OP, are the utterly horrific battery life. You need to carry at least 5 batteries and probably more for any kind of real shooting.

Also, for those that want it, the Blackmagic cannot do 60fps.

Glorifying one cam while demeaning the other without any degree of objectivity, does no one any good.

The Blackmagic does what it does extremely well, but it is not without its significant limitations. You pick the equipment that fits your needs and for many, the Blackmagic, as good as it is, won't suffice. That's just a fact.

Yes, this is really silly right? We are in a forum about video cameras and im showing a comparison between 2 video- cameras. Damn, im so silly! I should make a post about fishes the next time!

Yeah, the battery lasts for 30-40 minutes, so you probably need some spares. 3-5 should be MORE than enough for everyone. And the batteries are really cheap and small. Its funny you say that because the EOS M battery is not that great either. And no, you are wrong. For those that want to use it for real work, you can use an external battery - that way you can have HOURS of battery life. And its also cheap. And the image quality makes that battery problem seems like NOTHING. SIMPLY NOTHING!! rolleyes.gif

The only right thing that you wrote is that the Blackmagic is not a camera for everyone wink.gif

Sure it looks like its not for you. If you think that a camera that shoots prores 422 and RAW 444 with 13 stops of dynamic range is not that great because its battery lasts for 40 minutes LOL be happy with your 8-bit camcorder

And if you dont understand the objective of comparing a 10-bit 422 with an 8-bit 420 you have been living in a cave my friend, because we are in the middle of a big thing

When we compare the Blackmagic with the EOS M, we are actually comparing it with ALL 8bit cameras

Its funny how even in a forum of video-enthusiasts people dont get how revolutionary this camera is. Imagine the averave consumer. I guess thats why our cameras have been the same for years. rolleyes.gif
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post #15 of 104 Old 10-13-2013, 09:11 PM
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OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

1. It has really lousy onboard audio - poor mics and preamps, and bad meters. Forget audio on site, unless you have external devices and synching capability.

2. No auto White Balance.

3. Auto focus: forget it.

But the real kicker: you may wonder why the posted videos from this camera are all over the map in terms of quality. Well, the video out of the camera (in the popular "film' settings) MUST be color graded in post, and almost always white balance corrected also. So, what you are seeing are people's attempts at coloring their undersaturated, dull out-of-camera video (with of course great dynamic range). And some even say that video needs sharpening too.

In a nutshell, if you shoot run and gun, and do not want to spend hours on a computer wrestling with coloring and you care about audio and you want a small camera, this camera is totally unacceptable (you must use outboard audio, so that almost doubles the size of the camera and you have to synch audio in post). And of course, the sensor is smaller, and the crop factor is bigger than APS-C sensor cameras, with then necessary wrestling with getting dof effects.

Here is a real comparison. A professional videographer went into a lovely woods and shot a video with the BMPC, colored it in post and then added, as usual, a phony sound track complete with an arbitrary (but lovely soundtrack) - obviously he gave up on recording audio on site. Then he raved about how good the camera is, using this video as evidence.

This is the BMPC woods video: https://vimeo.com/75857817

A regular guy took his little Canon EOS M into a local woods area and in one hour shot and "edited" - clipped and combined - a video, complete with audio.

Here is the EOS M woods video, right from the camera: https://vimeo.com/76336892

I'm prejudiced, but my family agrees - they like the EOS woods video much, much more. The EOS M looks like a (gasp!) video, but the other one is murky, noisy and actually - unsharp. I'm sure somebody could do better with the camera, but it obviously requires skill and taste and discernment (standards). I am sure somebody could do better with the EOS M too.

Let's see, $600 for the EOS M + the lens; $1500 for the BMPC and some OIS lens + some outboard audio device. And hours of editing, and practice trying to get color right.

Dynamic range is great; high resolution is great; maybe we should wait for a real video/camera company to make a good camera.

PS. I'm ignoring the overheating issue and the time wasted changing batteries frequently.
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post #16 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 08:00 AM
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I assumed this thread was a response of sorts to the over-the-top praise of the EOS M in the other thread. Agree that it's sort of a pointless comparison given the different prices and target markets of the two cameras. Would be more interested in a comparo between the EOS M and similarly priced & capable offerings - Panasonic GF6, Olympus E-PL/M5, Sony NEX-5 & 3, etc.

jeff
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post #17 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 08:14 AM
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"Would be more interested in a comparo between the EOS M and similarly priced & capable offerings - Panasonic GF6, Olympus E-PL/M5, Sony NEX-5 & 3, etc."


Comparison video: Canon EOS M and Sony NEX 5N:



Select 1080p.

Sony always first in each sequence.

Remember, though - there is not one picture type. If you think one camera's video is too contrasty, you can turn contrast down in the camera. In this video, 'Standard' (default) settings were used.
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post #18 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

1. It has really lousy onboard audio - poor mics and preamps, and bad meters. Forget audio on site, unless you have external devices and synching capability.

Yes, the audio is bad, but then again, if you are serious about audio, external recording is the way to go. Specially when we talk about cinema cameras. Who records internal audio in cinema cameras? For consumers, the audio can be OK for family videos. If you want something in between, there are lots of small mics in the market.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

2. No auto White Balance.

Well, just learn something about Kelvin Temp. Thats like saying it doesnt have auto ISO or auto exposure. Manual mode my friend.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

3. Auto focus: forget it.

Thats not a big problem. First because autofocus is not essential in video recording. I shoot videos with mirrorless and DSLRs and I always use manual cine lenses, with manual focus and aperture. Its so much better than auto focus, specially when you shoot at large apertures. And it has focus peaking and magnification. Its just a joy to use manual focus that way.

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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

MUST be color graded in post, and almost always white balance corrected also.

Yes, if you shoot in film mode you HAVE to post process the video. If thats a deal breaker for the user, then its not the right camera. For a lot of guys, thats actually a joy. And no, you set your white balance in camera while shooting. You only have to do it in post if you dont know how to set WB, and I think thats not a problem for prosumers. And setting white ballance in post is simply ridiculous, is just ONE CLICK.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

And some even say that video needs sharpening too.

It needs sharpening. It has more detail than any other consumer camera, but it looks soft out of the camera.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

In a nutshell, if you shoot run and gun, and do not want to spend hours on a computer wrestling with coloring and you care about audio and you want a small camera, this camera is totally unacceptable

Its a great run and gun camera. And you are right about post processing. If you want cooked and ready to go videos, its not the camera for you. If you care about audio, you should ALWAYS use external audio.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

And of course, the sensor is smaller, and the crop factor is bigger than APS-C sensor cameras, with then necessary wrestling with getting dof effects.

The sensor is smaller, but it has better low light performance and its pretty easy to get shallow DOF. No wrestling needed. We have some cheap pancake lenses that can handle that. The crop makes it harder to get extremelly wide angles, but not impossible. And most of us dont need and dont use that. I have lots of canon and NEX lenses. Im always using 50mm+ focal lenghts, even for landscapes.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

Here is a real comparison. A professional videographer went into a lovely woods and shot a video with the BMPC, colored it in post and then added, as usual, a phony sound track complete with an arbitrary (but lovely soundtrack) - obviously he gave up on recording audio on site. Then he raved about how good the camera is, using this video as evidence.

Come on Mark, dont disappoint me, you are a smart guy. You are comparing a video made in a foggy and low light environment with a video made in a bright sunny day.

And even that way its easy to see the differences. Imagine the EOS M in the same place as the BMPCC. It could NEVER EVER EVER get images like that. EVER! The BMPCC renders shadows simply beautifully. The depth of the colors and the DR is simply dramatic. The EOS M woods video shows really artificial colors and the dynamic range is really bad. It looks totally digital and very amateur in high contrast scenes, due to the lack of Dynamic Range. Now lets imagine how the BMPCC would do in that same place with the same light conditions. Hmmm rolleyes.gif
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

Let's see, $600 for the EOS M + the lens; $1500 for the BMPC and some OIS lens + some outboard audio device. And hours of editing, and practice trying to get color right.

Its actually a great deal for a cinema camera. $1500 bucks for a kit like that is a bargain. And dont forget, the comparison is NOT with the EOS M only. The comparison is between 10 bit prores 422 and ALL 8 bit AVCHD 420 cameras
, and some of them cost so much more than 1500 USD.

Dont forget that, the EOS was just a tool. Those results apply to ALL 8-bit cameras.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

Dynamic range is great; high resolution is great; maybe we should wait for a real video/camera company to make a good camera.

It would be great to see a GH4 with 4k video and Prores, but since you guys (ENTHUSIASTS) cant see how revolutionary this is, I bet we will keep seeing only new AVCHD crappy cameras.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

PS. I'm ignoring the overheating issue and the time wasted changing batteries frequently.

I know it gets warm, but I havent heard about overheating issues. Thats actually a bigger problem in the EOS M. And the EOS M has also problems with battery. I bet you cant get much more time than the BMPCC
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post #19 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 12:16 PM
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Yes, this is really silly right? We are in a forum about video cameras and im showing a comparison between 2 video- cameras. Damn, im so silly! I should make a post about fishes the next time!

Yes, it IS silly when one advocates to such a degree, he 'conveniently' leaves out major minuses. Let me tell you, not everyone would be enthralled with carrying around a larger external battery. Some people may actually not use the camera that way. There is nothing silly about comparing cameras, but when someone is so very 'out-of-the-gate determined' to knock one camera while pointing out only its minuses and then extolling the virtues of another while conveniently leaving out its minutes...well, that is silly.
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Yeah, the battery lasts for 30-40 minutes, so you probably need some spares. 3-5 should be MORE than enough for everyone. And the batteries are really cheap and small. Its funny you say that because the EOS M battery is not that great either. And no, you are wrong. For those that want to use it for real work, you can use an external battery - that way you can have HOURS of battery life. And its also cheap. And the image quality makes that battery problem seems like NOTHING. SIMPLY NOTHING!! rolleyes.gif

Roll your eyes all you want, but I've read owner reports as well as pros reporting 15 minutes of battery life, not 30-40 minutes. That's something that anyone needs to take into consideration that's seriously considering this camera.
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The only right thing that you wrote is that the Blackmagic is not a camera for everyone wink.gif

Sure it looks like its not for you. If you think that a camera that shoots prores 422 and RAW 444 with 13 stops of dynamic range is not that great because its battery lasts for 40 minutes LOL be happy with your 8-bit camcorder

And if you dont understand the objective of comparing a 10-bit 422 with an 8-bit 420 you have been living in a cave my friend, because we are in the middle of a big thing

When we compare the Blackmagic with the EOS M, we are actually comparing it with ALL 8bit cameras

Its funny how even in a forum of video-enthusiasts people dont get how revolutionary this camera is. Imagine the averave consumer. I guess thats why our cameras have been the same for years. rolleyes.gif

Sounds like you have stock in the company. Nobody is saying it isn't a great camera for what it does. But not everyone wants or needs a camera like this. Does that come as a shock to you? Geesh. I for one appreciate the look of 1080 60p. This camera does not offer that and so for me, it's a non-starter. For others, they might not care at all about that omission. Each to his own.

But I surely don't appreciate when someone comes on these boards and tries to shove a product down everyone's throats. The camera works for you and that's great, I'm sure we're all happy for you. It might be the find of the century for some others too, but it isn't the answer to everyone's prayers...as hard as that appears for you to imagine.
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post #20 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 12:24 PM
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OK, I'll play - Some truths about the BMPC:

1. It has really lousy onboard audio - poor mics and preamps, and bad meters. Forget audio on site, unless you have external devices and synching capability.

2. No auto White Balance.

3. Auto focus: forget it.

But the real kicker: you may wonder why the posted videos from this camera are all over the map in terms of quality. Well, the video out of the camera (in the popular "film' settings) MUST be color graded in post, and almost always white balance corrected also. So, what you are seeing are people's attempts at coloring their undersaturated, dull out-of-camera video (with of course great dynamic range). And some even say that video needs sharpening too.

In a nutshell, if you shoot run and gun, and do not want to spend hours on a computer wrestling with coloring and you care about audio and you want a small camera, this camera is totally unacceptable (you must use outboard audio, so that almost doubles the size of the camera and you have to synch audio in post). And of course, the sensor is smaller, and the crop factor is bigger than APS-C sensor cameras, with then necessary wrestling with getting dof effects.

Here is a real comparison. A professional videographer went into a lovely woods and shot a video with the BMPC, colored it in post and then added, as usual, a phony sound track complete with an arbitrary (but lovely soundtrack) - obviously he gave up on recording audio on site. Then he raved about how good the camera is, using this video as evidence.

This is the BMPC woods video: https://vimeo.com/75857817

A regular guy took his little Canon EOS M into a local woods area and in one hour shot and "edited" - clipped and combined - a video, complete with audio.

Here is the EOS M woods video, right from the camera: https://vimeo.com/76336892

I'm prejudiced, but my family agrees - they like the EOS woods video much, much more. The EOS M looks like a (gasp!) video, but the other one is murky, noisy and actually - unsharp. I'm sure somebody could do better with the camera, but it obviously requires skill and taste and discernment (standards). I am sure somebody could do better with the EOS M too.

Let's see, $600 for the EOS M + the lens; $1500 for the BMPC and some OIS lens + some outboard audio device. And hours of editing, and practice trying to get color right.

Dynamic range is great; high resolution is great; maybe we should wait for a real video/camera company to make a good camera.

PS. I'm ignoring the overheating issue and the time wasted changing batteries frequently.

Wonder who shot that 2nd video? wink.gif Personally I like that one far better than the noisy example in the first case.

You pointed out other foibles of the Blackmagic I had forgotten about when I researched it a while back. No camera is perfect and the Blackmagic is just another example. Like you Mark, I've been non-plussed by the variability of results I've seen from the Blackmagic. I'm sure it's capable of great results in the right hands and with the right amount of time to straighten out its output. But for many of us who do 'run n gun', that most certainly is not the camera for us.

Different tools for different needs. smile.gif
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post #21 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 12:34 PM
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"Would be more interested in a comparo between the EOS M and similarly priced & capable offerings - Panasonic GF6, Olympus E-PL/M5, Sony NEX-5 & 3, etc."


Comparison video: Canon EOS M and Sony NEX 5N:



Select 1080p.

Sony always first in each sequence.

Remember, though - there is not one picture type. If you think one camera's video is too contrasty, you can turn contrast down in the camera. In this video, 'Standard' (default) settings were used.

Great comparison Mark. Yes, my initial reaction was there was almost too much contrast and too much in-camera sharpening with the Canon. OTOH, the Sony was too soft for my taste and if I were to pick one, I'd most definitely pick the Canon (and I own the NEX 5).

Was each camera set at default or did you start with different values on each?
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Not to mention, the BM products tend to have weird artifacts, such as excessive sensor blooming, electronic interference and lines in the footage. Some people have reported having physical artifacts between the sensor and the cover filter. If you read the support forum on the BM site it is pretty obvious that the quality control on their products is sorely lacking.

My concern with the BMPCC at the moment (besides the fact that it is not a user friendly product, and the issues Mark mentioned) is that they are pushing a sensor to its limits, but at what cost? That is not clear, and is hard to tell since it seems that most of the people who buy the things are a lot like the folk who by the latest iPhone every year just because it is an Apple. They are not exactly unbiased.

Maybe in a few years, when their products become more mature, we will get a better idea of where things like the BMPCC stand, but for now I would think twice about getting one.

Usually when the BMPCC comes under criticism the response is something like "well, it is intended as a cinematic camera". No. It is not. It is intended as a portable camera, and it is on that basis it should be evaluated. In that use mode the overall practicality of the camera is just as, if not more, important as the image quality.
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Sounds like you have stock in the company.

Actually, im an ex-owner of a 5D, and currently I have a NEX-5R and a 60D, wich is pretty much a big brother of the EOS M (and I also own some camcorders). I also own a big collection of Canon, Cine and NEX lenses - so no, im not a Blackmagic fanboy. And I dont know if I'll buy one, because I dont want to invest in a new system - I have no m43 lenses.

What I see is actually the opposite. You guys seems to be afraid of leaving your currently 8-bit systems, so you keep trying to justify why they are great. They are not. They suck. Video cameras are all about VIDEO. So if the video sucks, the camera sucks. People are all crazy because Canon released a crappy 70D with a new focus system. Come one, Canon throw alms at you guys and you are all happy. When someone comes with a REAL revolution in image quality, people start to criticize it because the battery only lasts for 30-40 minutes, wich is about the same as most DSLRs and mirrorless. I dont know where you got that info about 15 minutes. Thats totally wrong. And Blackmagic is also about to release a new battery with more juice, to last 50-60 minutes.

And for the last time:

For those that are not understanding the purpose of that test, its a comparison between 10-bit ProRes 4:2:2 with 13 stops of DR versus ALL 8-bit cameras. So if you own an 8-bit camera it will suck as bad as the EOS M compared to the Blackmagic. And that applies to cameras that cost 1k, 2k, 3k, 20k etc

And please stop posting comparisons where you choose the worst possible video in the worst possible scenario of the Blackmagic with another 8-bit camera in ideal conditions. We are not fools.
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post #24 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Not to mention, the BM products tend to have weird artifacts, such as excessive sensor blooming, electronic interference and lines in the footage. Some people have reported having physical artifacts between the sensor and the cover filter. If you read the support forum on the BM site it is pretty obvious that the quality control on their products is sorely lacking.

Blackmagic has that bad habit of releasing unfinished products. They have launched the BMPCC with uncalibrated sensor, no RAW support and an unfinished firmware. Thats a big flaw. But then again, we all know that is risky to buy the first batch of ANY camera. That happened to a lot of Olympus and Panasonic cameras. People had to return them.

The image artifacts problem has been corrected and the new shipped cameras dont have those problems anymore.


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Usually when the BMPCC comes under criticism the response is something like "well, it is intended as a cinematic camera". No. It is not. It is intended as a portable camera, and it is on that basis it should be evaluated. In that use mode the overall practicality of the camera is just as, if not more, important as the image quality.

Thats wrong. Its not a consumer portable camera. Its crossing the line between prosumer and pro. As you can see in this image, it is intended as a cinematic camera.



Its intended to be a B-camera. Something to attach to a vehicle or something like that in a serious work. But the size and price make it a good option for hardcore enthusiasts.
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Why don't you do a test on the usability of cameras then? Perfect image quality is useless if you can't get the shot.

Do not underestimate focussing. One of the issues with the BMPCC is that it is difficult to get good focus (see here). That is kind of important for everyday use of a camera. A good portable camera should be readily focussed manually and should also have excellent autofocussing capabilities for when you need that.

In the examples you have provided above, I could not help but notice that the exposures were not the same. Also, you comment on sharpness, but don't seem to consider the possibility that both cameras have been probably manually focussed and may be focussed on different points. It does not represent the sharpness capability of the camera unless it is done in a controlled test, which your provided example is not.
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Blackmagic has that bad habit of releasing unfinished products. They have launched the BMPCC with uncalibrated sensor, no RAW support and an unfinished firmware. Thats a big flaw. But then again, we all know that is risky to buy the first batch of ANY camera. That happened to a lot of Olympus and Panasonic cameras. People had to return them.

The image artifacts problem has been corrected and the new shipped cameras dont have those problems anymore.
Thats wrong. Its not a consumer portable camera. Its crossing the line between prosumer and pro. As you can see in this image, it is intended as a cinematic camera.



Its intended to be a B-camera. Something to attach to a vehicle or something like that in a serious work. But the size and price make it a good option for hardcore enthusiasts.

No. It is intended as a pocket camera, hence the term "pocket".

As for unresolved issues, read the BM boards. There are serious issues with the BMCC that have not even been acknowledged, let alone resolved (such as the electronic interference and banding issues). The high performance SSDs required for the BMCC apparently have a nasty habit of dieing in camera relatively frequently. Heat generation is an issue, especially for the pocket camera, which lacks a cooling solution. There are many issues with these cameras that affect usability as opposed to image quality
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post #27 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 02:00 PM
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Great comparison Mark. Yes, my initial reaction was there was almost too much contrast and too much in-camera sharpening with the Canon. OTOH, the Sony was too soft for my taste and if I were to pick one, I'd most definitely pick the Canon (and I own the NEX 5).

Was each camera set at default or did you start with different values on each?

Thanks. Default for each. It is clear that the NEX has contrast down compared to the Canon and maybe sharpening. One could try the "Neutral" Picture Style for the Canon (which has lower contrast, more midrange, and less sharpening), and maybe there is a setting for the Sony that ups contrast. My main gripe for the NEX is the autofocus; one of the clips in the comparison shows the inability of the Sony to focus on what I waned, no matter how often I fingered the lcd so I just left in the unfocused NEX clips (there were two).
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Why don't you do a test on the usability of cameras then? Perfect image quality is useless if you can't get the shot.

I did, and Im absolutelly amazed by those Blackmagic Cameras. I had none of those problems you mention. The only thing I dont like about it is the firmware. Although its simple, you dont have live view and it lacks some features.
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Do not underestimate focussing. One of the issues with the BMPCC is that it is difficult to get good focus (see here). That is kind of important for everyday use of a camera. A good portable camera should be readily focussed manually and should also have excellent autofocussing capabilities for when you need that.

I had no problems with focus. It was actually pretty easy. And if you want excellent autofocussing, then no mirrorless or DSLRs will do the job for you. And I rather use manual focus.

Those people posting problems at the BM forum are having trouble because they are entering a new world, and they forgot to study before doing that. I saw some people talking about problems with focus, but they were using a lens @ f0.95. At that aperture the image is SO soft that it looks out of focus. Another one said he was having problems with focus, and he was comparing with a similar shot he made with a 5D. He forgot that he had to use an unsharpen mask in post to reduce the softness of the image, so it was not an out of focus problem. And its pretty easy to get in focus with such a small sensor. I tested it with a Canon 50mm f1.4, wich is a 150mm in the BMPCC. I was able to focus every time.
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In the examples you have provided above, I could not help but notice that the exposures were not the same. Also, you comment on sharpness, but don't seem to consider the possibility that both cameras have been probably manually focussed and may be focussed on different points. It does not represent the sharpness capability of the camera unless it is done in a controlled test, which your provided example is not.

Both cameras were being tested @ ISO800 / f.4.0. It was a nice way to show how great the low light performance of that tiny sensor is, compared to something big like the APS.

If they were focussed on different points, the EOS M could be sharper at some place on the image, and all I can see is that its lower in resolution EVERYWHERE. Well, if you cant see more detail in the Blackmagic footage - im sorry LOL
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No. It is intended as a pocket camera, hence the term "pocket".

As for unresolved issues, read the BM boards. There are serious issues with the BMCC that have not even been acknowledged, let alone resolved (such as the electronic interference and banding issues). The high performance SSDs required for the BMCC apparently have a nasty habit of dieing in camera relatively frequently. Heat generation is an issue, especially for the pocket camera, which lacks a cooling solution. There are many issues with these cameras that affect usability as opposed to image quality

Let me teach you something about marketing. Pocket doesnt mean that its a pocket camera, because it wont fit your pocket. Thats made to cause an impact and sell more. Its NOT a pocket camera. To use it, you will need a lens and an ND filter. Even if you use a pancake + the ND filter, it will never fit your pocket.

So no, its not a POCKET camera. And its not capable of doing black magic, although thats in its name!

And if you buy it, you wont be able to do a movie for the cinema, although it has cinema in its name!

If you want to nitpick about ANY product, you can always find users showing problems in forums, but that doesnt mean it happens with all cameras. I've seen lots of people having problems with cameras I have in video-forums, including here.

I tested both the BMPCC and the BMCC and saw NO heating issues. My NEX gets warmer than them. And the owner never had problems with his SSD.

Just make a 5 min search in google and you will find a lot of posts of people having problems with Canons, Nikons, Panasonics etc.
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post #29 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL I feel sad for those that cant see that an image like that compensates for ALL the limitations of the camera

Yeah, do you need a test chart to see if it has more resolution than the EOS M? Dont make me laugh. Even after youtube compression is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR better than any average 8-bit camera.

1 year ago to get an image like that you would have to buy a 30,000USD camera. Now for 1k you can have that, in a small size. BUT NOOOO, lets buy crappy 8-bit cameras with crushed shadows, blown out highlights, fake colors and STANDARD resolution, because it has a battery that lasts 10 minutes more and it features a full-crappy-autofocus. rolleyes.gif


And for those concerned about focusing, here is an example of manual focusing in an old cine lens. Even with all the "fast action" of the kids, you can see that its not that hard wink.gif

And you can also see some shallow DOF scenes. Not that ridiculous shallow DOF that you see on full frames where the eye is in focus but the tip of the nose and the ears arent. Everything looks cinematic.
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post #30 of 104 Old 10-14-2013, 03:46 PM
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Since they are coming from professional cameras they are not "entering a new world" as you put it. Some of them are coming from a BMCC, and returning to it because of the focusing issues with the smaller camera. The issue is the low cost LCD used as a viewfinder IMO. That cuts back to the practicality side of things. I imagine using a BMPCC in bright light outdoors would be pretty tricky. It has no automatic focussing tools and no proper viewfinder.

It is called a pocket camera not because it can "fit in your pocket" but because it is a small form factor intended to compete with other small form factor cameras. It is not intended to be hooked up to a studio rig. If you wanted to do that you would be better off with the bigger camera. It is meant to be portable and therefore the handling has to be compared to other cameras in that niche, not in a studio.

There are complaints on BM's boards about heat and (in the case of the BMCC) questions about the reliability of the SSDs in camera. SSDs are not designed to be used in the way BM are using them, so they fail. SSDs are used in the BMCC btw, not the BMPCC, I included it as an example of the sorts of unforeseen consequences that come from people sticking a bunch of stuff onto a sensor without long term experience in developing cameras. Most of these "high performance" startup camera lines are going to have similar issues.

The problem with BMPCC and the promised RAW is that finding an SD card with a fast enough write rate and is compatible with the camera is going to be issue, if they can actually deliver what they say on the box at all.
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