Canon EOS 70D VS older Sony Camcorder - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 54 Old 10-30-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Bill, I can't recall ever recording a clip over 15 minutes for my own personal use, but that's me. I can see if you have a really long recital or something like that, it might be a limitation. But even then, there's bound to be a pause somewhere that would allow you to recycle your time limit...

Ken - 99% of the time (no pun intended smile.gif), the clip length limit is not an issue. But when the kids or grandkids have the starring role in the school play, or when you're the family record-keeper at a memorial service where getting up to restart the camera is inappropriate, it's a good thing to have a camera or camcorder without a time limit. I have found myself in both of these situations in the last few years, and I was very grateful to have a Panasonic DSLM instead of a DSLR in my camera bag.

Contrast that with this poor guy. Or this one.

Best Regards,

Bill
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post #32 of 54 Old 10-30-2013, 01:03 PM
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Yeah, 12 minutes is another story. But I think for most folks, the near 30 minute limitation would not be a deal-breaker. To be honest Bill, for a really long recital or something akin to that, I might choose a camcorder as you mentioned, over any DSLR anyway. YMMV.
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post #33 of 54 Old 10-30-2013, 02:07 PM
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Speaking of prices, reading DVXuser, I see that a place is selling the GH3 body only for $799 while the GX7 with the lens is $949
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh3-mirrorless-digital-camerablackdmc-gh3/
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/panasonic-lumix-gx7-16-0-mp-dslm-camera-with-lumix-g-vario-14-42mm-ii-lensdmc-gx7ks/

I wonder if this means B&H and Amazon will start lowering prices as well for the GH3.

I need to research over rather or not the GX7 really doesn't have an AA filter and that Panasonic is correcting it in another way. If true, that would be awesome. I also head that the GX7 deals with the gamma better. Still thinks that theirs no mic input and no headphone jack but you'll always find trade-offs in cameras. You just have to figure out what's the most important. Even the size of the GH3 can be a trade-off for some people since it's a bit bigger than the GX7.

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post #34 of 54 Old 10-30-2013, 07:52 PM
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FWIW, aliasing and moire on the GX7 is as low as I've ever seen on a DSLR. It's so low as to be a virtual non-issue IMO. It's one of the reasons that detail is so good.
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post #35 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Couldn't make up my mind. Too many choices and options to consider. Took all the recommendations here and threw the names in a hat and drew out the Canon D70.
Ordered last night from Amazon and got it a few hours ago.
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post #36 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 12:14 PM
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New Canon 70D review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-70d

(it's good).
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post #37 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 01:04 PM
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It's strange that the Canon doesn't offer 1920X1080 60p. It just seems to me that all these cameras should be offering that by default in this day and age.

Otherwise it looks like a nice camera.
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post #38 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, about to dig into it tonight and learn how to use this thing.

Just wanted to say thanks for everyones input.smile.gif
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post #39 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, the first thing I learned is that cameras apparently come with batteries that have zero charge.rolleyes.gif
Got her charged and went through some basics. Took about 40 shots.... many just of my toes at the end of the recliner. The toenail could look weird and 135mm.
The burst mode was pretty cool and fast. So figuring out the easy standard things isn't so bad. Took a short video and basically just tried to learn some of the controls and buttons.

Anyway, I'm basically a pretty tech savvy type of guy especially with computers and such... but photography beyond my point and shoot is all very new to me.
I would really like to learn as much as possible about this thing and learn how to use it properly instead of just having an extremely expensive point and shoot.
Sooooo, Anyone have any opinions on this....
http://www.canontrainingvideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=63

I'm thinking it will be much easier to learn with video then sifting through the basic instruction manual which is almost 200 pages.... the full manual on the disk is closer to 500.
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post #40 of 54 Old 10-31-2013, 09:25 PM
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lordhutt, the best Canon still photography forum is this one: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php To learn elementary video editing, some of us used the Lynda training videos http://www.lynda.com/ They have one for iMovie if you use a Mac and one for Windows Movie Maker if you use Windows.
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post #41 of 54 Old 11-01-2013, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

lordhutt, the best Canon still photography forum is this one: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php To learn elementary video editing, some of us used the Lynda training videos http://www.lynda.com/ They have one for iMovie if you use a Mac and one for Windows Movie Maker if you use Windows.

Thanks for the links. I'm not really concerned as much about software as simply learning how to use the camera itself right now. Tons of buttons and options on this thing and I don't even know what many of them are used for.
Thats why I was thinking about that video tutorial above as its geared specifically for this camera. Was wondering if anyone ever saw the Michael Andrews video.
I'm sure I can find tons of similar things on youtube and in the forums but thought it would be convenient to just get it all in one package. Just wanted to know if it was worth it.
As for video editing I use Sony Vegas and have a decent understanding of how to use it.

Thanks!
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post #42 of 54 Old 11-01-2013, 07:51 AM
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This review covers many of the 70D functions/buttons...

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post #43 of 54 Old 11-01-2013, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's strange that the Canon doesn't offer 1920X1080 60p. It just seems to me that all these cameras should be offering that by default in this day and age.

Otherwise it looks like a nice camera.

It could probably be due to heating issues which is why even for US models, theirs still a 30 minute limit. I'm sure for future models Canon will be more prepared to offer 1080 60p without causing any issues to the camera and maybe even take that limit off.

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post #44 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 01:23 AM
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It's not overheating. In order to remove the limit, they would have to develop two firmware versions, one for Europe (where the limit is required by EU tax rules), and one for the rest of the world. This would cost them money, which they choose not to spend because US consumers buy crippled cameras anyway.

Panasonic is the only manufacturer that bothers to write separate sets of code, one for Europe (with the limit) and one for the rest of the world (without it) - but most consumers don't seem to think it's a big deal, so other manufacturers have no incentive to fix it.
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post #45 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 03:18 AM
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Then why is their no 1080 60p mode if they'd be no heating issues?

Both the GX7 and the GM1 are using a similar chip but only the GX7 can do 1080 60p. The G6 supposedly has a worse chip than the GX7 and GM1 but it can do 1080 60p just like the GX7. The GM1 is very tiny compared to the GX7 and G6 so perhaps it's able to heat up more and so Panasonic probably decided it's best not to put 1080 60p. One other theory for eighter camera is the use of faster processors to handle it. In the case of the 70D, I'm not really sure it's that much of a slouch.

Vitaliy Kiselev was able to easily disable the 30 minute limit from Pal GH2 units. Somebody should try to do the same to non Panasonic cameras if it haven't been done already.

One thing to think about is that in the past Canon has said that one of the reasons why the 1DC can do 4K videos while the 1DX can't is because the circuits and the slight internal design change can deal with the heat better.

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post #46 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

It's not overheating. In order to remove the limit, they would have to develop two firmware versions, one for Europe (where the limit is required by EU tax rules), and one for the rest of the world. This would cost them money, which they choose not to spend because US consumers buy crippled cameras anyway.

Panasonic is the only manufacturer that bothers to write separate sets of code, one for Europe (with the limit) and one for the rest of the world (without it) - but most consumers don't seem to think it's a big deal, so other manufacturers have no incentive to fix it.

I don't think Panasonic is the only one to do it, Sony does it too. I don't think there's any excuse for not having 60p as an option in a $1,300 camera, I really don't. We've had them in small, far cheaper cameras for several years now. So I'm not sure I'm even convinced that heating is the issue in today's modern cameras. I'd sooner believe it's some kind of marketing scheme they have.
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post #47 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 07:31 AM
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I agree with you on 60p, Ken. I was talking about the 30 minute limit. Panasonic is the only one that bothers to lift it for their non EU cameras smile.gif

Cheers,

Bill
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post #48 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 01:55 PM
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I understand I'm getting off topic here when I shouldn't but I somehow think that if 1080 60p was a piece of cake to do on the current Canon DSLR's then I'm sure they would have wanted that feature in it. Smaller cameras has smaller chips which doesn't generate as much heat as the bigger chips so they can obviously go into smaller bodies. In the case of the GX7 and GM1, the MOS chip is the same but again, Panasonic couldn't put 60p into the GM1 probably because the GM1 is a tighter fit. As mentioned, even Canon admitted their 1DC 4K camera dealt with the heat much better than the 1DX. Eighter the electronics in all other Canon still cameras aren't made to handle 1080 60p well or they just want to save that feature for future models which probably wouldn't surprise me eighter so yes, one theory could be marketing as well like Ken said.

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post #49 of 54 Old 11-02-2013, 05:51 PM
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Lack of 1080/60p in Canon DSLRs is not a hardware limitation. It's a market leading company that allows the competition to do its innovation and market research - and then rolls the latest features into its most expensive cameras and charges a premium for them.

A few examples:

- Panasonic introduced the swivel LCD in the video DSLR form-factor first, in 2009, with the groundbreaking GH1, Canon followed with the incremental T3i upgrade to the T2i in 2011.

- They again followed Panasonic's (and, to a lesser extent, Sony's) 2009-2010 lead in touch-screen video autofocus for DSLs with the T4i upgrade in 2012 (finally eclipsing their competitors in this area with the 70D's dual pixel autofocus in 2013).

- And they only introduced 1080/60p to their prosumer camcorder and point and shoot lines in 2013 (again trailing Panasonic and Sony) with the HF G30 and G16.

With respect to the argument that the heat generated by the "size of the larger body and chips" somehow prevents Canon from offering higher frame rates - it didn't stop them from offering 4K/24p and 1080/60P in the DSLR form-factor with the $12K Canon Cinema EOS 1D C. And by the way, the 1D C doesn't have a 30 minute clip length limit.

Canon could give its video capable DSLRs 1080/60p and unlimited continuous video recording tomorrow, if it wanted to. But, before they do, they will allow their competitors to take the market risks and prove there's a demand for these features first.

This has been a successful strategy for Canon so far, but it certainly can be frustrating for consumers.

Bill
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post #50 of 54 Old 11-03-2013, 05:50 PM
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Not sure if you misunderstood me but in the case of the 1DC, Canon made it to handle the heat better than the 1DX. I do know that theirs been a lot of complaints in the past about heating problems although I'm sure they are much better now since you can shoot for 30 minutes easily but as far as shooting in 1080 60p for say 2 hours at a time, maybe not. It would be nice to see what would happen if Canon release a firmware like that so people can experiment and to also see if 1080 60p would cause eighter more or less moire to show up on in certain scenes which could be alternate theory why they wouldn't put 1080 60p into the current tech inside the 70D. Still, Canon could put technology into the 70D that would make it more easily handle 1080 60p well and shoot much longer like the 1DC but that could have slightly increased the cost so they could have figured to save it for future models when it'll cost less to do.. I also said that I agree it can also be marketing as well. I'm just giving other theories rather some people will think it's farfetched or not.

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post #51 of 54 Old 11-03-2013, 11:18 PM
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In what way would 60/50P benefit Canon DSLRs,i have 50P on my Canon HF-G30 & Pana FZ150 and never use it,the extra recording space and easier editing plus identical performance of 24Mbps on the G30 is the reason.
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post #52 of 54 Old 11-04-2013, 04:20 AM
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^ Flinty, you'll often get both better motion handling as well as resolution. I've seen a number of cameras come in with higher resolution scores when tested in 60p (50p out your way) than shooting in 60i.

Additionally, most cameras I've seen, shooting in the AVCHD format, top out at 17mbps at 60i vs 28mbps shooting at 60p. Now that doesn't guarantee you'll see the difference, but some people can. I suspect that your display size and quality, source content in terms of how much detail and motion there is, as well as your visual acuity come in to play.

But if you see no difference, then your arguments about ease of editing and recording space make perfect sense.
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post #53 of 54 Old 11-04-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
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^ Flinty, you'll often get both better motion handling as well as resolution. I've seen a number of cameras come in with higher resolution scores when tested in 60p (50p out your way) than shooting in 60i.

Additionally, most cameras I've seen, shooting in the AVCHD format, top out at 17mbps at 60i vs 28mbps shooting at 60p. Now that doesn't guarantee you'll see the difference, but some people can. I suspect that your display size and quality, source content in terms of how much detail and motion there is, as well as your visual acuity come in to play.

But if you see no difference, then your arguments about ease of editing and recording space make perfect sense.

ken i did a lot of tests,charts and moving clips traffic etc,watching the raw clips under intense scrutiny on my 50" pioneer showed no difference so i even tried watching on a relatives 60" newer tv and we could not see any improvement,technicaly there must be as more space is used even more on Mpeg4 mode on the G30,but my EOS M uses a lot of card space,i love the colour etc on it but its resolution is very slightly less than the G30.
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post #54 of 54 Old 11-23-2013, 12:59 AM
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well i have not seen this on here before so i hope i never mssed it https://vimeo.com/78294762#at=0
https://vimeo.com/78374643#at=0
It looks a VG camera to me
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