Suggestions for a device to record acting (EOS-M vs camcorder?) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, everyone.

 

I'm looking to purchase a video recording device for my sister.

 

She's studying acting and wants to record her acting to check it later.

 

She wants the device to take clear video in low-light since she'll be practicing indoor.

She doesn't need all the fancy features. Rather she wants it to be easy to use and takes clear video and audio for her to check later.

She also wants a remote function.

The device will be on a tripod mostly.

 

I'm currently considering a refurb Canon M50, Panasonic V720, and EOS-M.

 

Since I do not have first hand experiences with these devices and have 0 experience with video recording, I would like to ask for your suggestions.

 

Although M50 is a really nice device, I'm worried for its narrow angle since she'll be recording mostly in her room.

V720 looks nice but its remote function that involves a smartphone is something that simply complicates a simple function.

I'm really leaning towards EOS-M because of its price and its very clear video and audio from the samples I've seen.

 

Is EOS-M's recording function easy to operate and is the autofocus good enough for indoor shooting?

Also, would EOS-M's remote controller allow her to record her from the distance? Or does it only allow to take picture?

 

Thank you so much for reading, and I'd really appreciate if you could guide me to the right path.

 

Sincerely,

Tarinodap

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post #2 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 11:56 AM
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I can answer on the EOS M:

1. You can buy a Canon remote (wireless and cheap - $20). You can use it to start and stop video.

2. For low-light shooting on a tripod, the kit EF M 22mm f2.0 lens will be perfect (big aperture and wide angle). The EOS M is excellent in low light.

3. It has very good audio - you can control the audio manually, and if you do not like what the built-in mics do, you can easily add your own microphone since it has an external mic port.

The EOS M + 22mm lens is about $350.
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post #3 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I can answer on the EOS M:

1. You can buy a Canon remote (wireless and cheap - $20). You can use it to start and stop video.

2. For low-light shooting on a tripod, the kit EF M 22mm f2.0 lens will be perfect (big aperture and wide angle). The EOS M is excellent in low light.

3. It has very good audio - you can control the audio manually, and if you do not like what the built-in mics do, you can easily add your own microphone since it has an external mic port.

The EOS M + 22mm lens is about $350.

 

Hi, Markr041,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

1. Is the remote the RC 6? I checked EOS-M's manual, and it doesn't specify that I can control the recording with the remote while I believe other EOS's manual mentioned it. So is the remote's recording function similar  to the other EOSs?

 

2. That's what I was planning to get. Also considering the sensor size, I thought the low light function should be better than the M50 and V720.

 

3. That's good to know!

 

Yeah, the price is too good and very comparable to the camcorders that I was looking into, and that's why it's giving me dilemma.

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post #4 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 12:54 PM
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Yes RC 6. You set it to "2", and you can start and stop video, after setting the camera to take remote commands.
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post #5 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 02:45 PM
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If it's just for acting practice, I would go for a camcorder mainly because of the flip out screen and ease of use/automation. You can watch yourself while being filmed. EOS M screen is non-moveable and will always be facing away from the actor.

The EOS M auto-focus works if it's on movie servo or if someone is behind the camera touch focusing or manually focusing the ring. EOS M with 22mm also makes a lot of noise, especially with servo on. In general, there is a lot of focus hunting.

The HF M50 or v720 auto-focus is fast and silent. v720 shoots @ 60 progressive frames per second..so it's going to look soap opera-ish in an acting context. The HF M50 can shoot 24PF and 30PF..24 and 30fps (and 60i) and has a Cinema Mode.

I can tell you from personal experience using the EOS M on a tripod and trying to film myself, it's cumbersome, And I do have the HF M50 and bought the wireless remote and it's very easy, you don't think about the camera too much...
Whereas the EOS M makes you overly conscious of the process/technical details, with a main concern wondering where you are in the frame without being able to see yourself. (Of course you could buy a small monitor, but then you are raising the price by at least a couple hundred dollars.) It would be different if just using it as just the camera person.

If you're concerned about light, pick up a couple of clip-on reflector lamps, about 8 bucks each at a hardware store and possibly a couple of dimmers to be able to adjust the light strength. The EOS M would be more suitable for a more serious presentation, but I think a camcorder would be better if just practice and reviewing.
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post #6 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by xfws View Post

If it's just for acting practice, I would go for a camcorder mainly because of the flip out screen and ease of use/automation. You can watch yourself while being filmed. EOS M screen is non-moveable and will always be facing away from the actor.

The EOS M auto-focus works if it's on movie servo or if someone is behind the camera touch focusing or manually focusing the ring.
EOS M with 22mm also makes a lot of noise, especially with servo on. In general, there is a lot of focus hunting.

The HFM50 or v720 auto-focus is fast and silent.
If you're concerned about light, pick up a couple of clip-on reflector lamps, about 8 bucks each at a hardware store and possibly a couple of dimmers to be able to adjust the light strength. The EOS M would be more suitable for a presentation, but for practice, I think a camcorder would be more practical.

Thanks xfws for the reply,

 

1) Watching herself while acting apparently is a big no-no according to her acting teacher. So, flip out screen is not that important.

However, I'm curious on the ease-of-use aspect. I think she wants a device that is simple to use without much customization. In such instance, are the camcorders much better than the EOS-M?

 

2) Is the movie servo like a movie mode for EOS-M? If 22mm makes a lot of noise, what about the other kit lens, the 18-55mm?

She is considering that one as well because the bundle price is really good and she might enjoy the zoom function.

Is that one noisy as well?

 

I know I sounds more interested in EOS-M. It's just that we were very surprised by the quality of video samples that we've seen on the internet.

It was very clear and sharp. However, if the camcorders are much easier to use, I think she should go with the camcorder if it's necessary.

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post #7 of 33 Old 10-31-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tarinodap View Post

Thanks xfws for the reply,

1) Watching herself while acting apparently is a big no-no according to her acting teacher. So, flip out screen is not that important.
However, I'm curious on the ease-of-use aspect. I think she wants a device that is simple to use without much customization. In such instance, are the camcorders much better than the EOS-M?

2) Is the movie servo like a movie mode for EOS-M? If 22mm makes a lot of noise, what about the other kit lens, the 18-55mm?
She is considering that one as well because the bundle price is really good and she might enjoy the zoom function.
Is that one noisy as well?

I know I sounds more interested in EOS-M. It's just that we were very surprised by the quality of video samples that we've seen on the internet.
It was very clear and sharp. However, if the camcorders are much easier to use, I think she should go with the camcorder if it's necessary.

Movie servo will constantly maintain focus on the subject. I know the 18-55 is quieter AF in general, but can't say if that applies to servo, as I've only used the 22mm.

Yeah, the quality is better with the EOS M...as I mentioned in my edit above I have used both for filming myself and found the HF M50 to be a lot easier. If you're saying the teacher doesn't want her to see herself as she acts, maybe the EOS M would be suitable...

Although, with a camcorder, you could set up the shot then if you don't want to see yourself just turn the screen back around before hitting record, but at least you can see where you are first in relation to the camera. Perhaps this depends on if she will typically just be standing in front of wall/where just the acting is important..or if she will be framing shots as if in different scenes/parts of a house like at a desk, kitchen, etc.

I suppose she could shoot a test shot, go back to the EOS M, hit the play button and review the clip to see where she is in the frame and then do the actual. I found it a distraction being more bogged down by technical aspects in that situation. EOS M does have an auto movie mode, but I've only used full manual movie mode.

Even though the EOS M has a large image sensor I've found that, without adequate light, the camera has difficulty indoors and focus hunts. You could just get lights for whatever camera you decide on or employ what lights she already has.
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post #8 of 33 Old 11-02-2013, 04:33 PM
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I personally just pulled the trigger on an EOS M. This is how I rationalized that decision-

 

 

BlackMagic Pocket Cinema

Canon EOS M

Sensor / Designation

12.48 x 7.02mm / Super16

22.3 x 14.9mm / APS-C

Replaceable Lens Mount

Micro Four-Thirds

EF-M, EF-S, EF

Dynamic Range

13 stops

14 stops w/Magic Lantern

Records Full HD 1920x1080 RAW

Yes

Yes w/Magic Lantern

Write speed

13.75MB/s ProRes 422 HQ*

40MB/s RAW

Auto focus

No

Yes

Weight / Dimensions

355g / 128x38x66 mm

262g / 109x32x66 mm

LCD Display / Resolution / Touchscreen

3.5” / 384,000 dot / No

3” / 1,040,000 dot / Yes

Uses SDXC and SDHC Memory Cards

Yes

Yes

Battery / External power

EN-EL20 / Yes

LP-E12 / Yes

HDMI / LANC / 3.5mm Audio Input

Yes / Yes / Yes

Yes / No / Yes

Cost

$1,000.00

$448 incl 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens, flash, case, and EF-M to EF lens adapter**

* Extrapolated. May be wrong.

** B&H while supplies last

 

So, you know, just to recap, the EOS M is smaller, lighter, faster, twice the resolution sensor, three times the resolution display, higher dynamic range, includes lens, flash, lens adapter, case, and still costs less then half the cost of the Pocket Cinema camcorder.

 

Make no mistake, the Pocket Cinema is superior to the EOS M out of the box. But I've seen what the Magic Lantern firmware can accomplish with the EOS M and it's freakin' amazing.

 

I will be selling the EF-M 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM in favor of a EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM lens. I've also purchased the EF-M 22mm f/2 STM lens and am giving serious consideration  to the EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM lens if/when Canon sells it in the United States. 

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post #9 of 33 Old 11-02-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witzendoze View Post

I personally just pulled the trigger on an EOS M. This is how I rationalized that decision-

BlackMagic Pocket Cinema

Canon EOS M

I think you're looking for this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494640/blackmagic-pocket-vs-eos-m-low-light
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post #10 of 33 Old 11-02-2013, 07:35 PM
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This was one of the videos that sold me-

 

 

And let's keep in mind here that we are ONLY $448 in WITH THE LENS! To my way of thinking that's an extra $1,000 that I can put toward something totally extravagant like a Zeiss 15mm prime.

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post #11 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone.

 

AFter much though and research, I bought the EOS-M with 22mm, 18-55mm, and flash bundle for $429.

 

 

Rather excited about it.

 

Although camcorder might be easier to operate, the quality difference coming from the sensor size is simply too big to ignore.

 

Thanks again!

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post #12 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 10:55 AM
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May I ask from where you purchased?

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post #13 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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May I ask from where you purchased?

Of course. I didn't mention  the retailer, b/c I didn't want to be seen as some promoter.

 

I bought from buydig.com

I would've bought from 1sale.com if I had 2-3 weeks to wait since they are selling for

$399 without tax and shipping, but I needed them rather quickly.

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post #14 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by witzendoze View Post

I personally just pulled the trigger on an EOS M. This is how I rationalized that decision-

BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Canon EOS M
Sensor / Designation 12.48 x 7.02mm / Super16 22.3 x 14.9mm / APS-C
Replaceable Lens Mount Micro Four-Thirds EF-M, EF-S, EF
Dynamic Range 13 stops 14 stops w/Magic Lantern
Records Full HD 1920x1080 RAW Yes Yes w/Magic Lantern
Write speed 13.75MB/s ProRes 422 HQ* 40MB/s RAW
Auto focus No Yes
Weight / Dimensions 355g / 128x38x66 mm 262g / 109x32x66 mm
LCD Display / Resolution / Touchscreen 3.5” / 384,000 dot / No 3” / 1,040,000 dot / Yes
Uses SDXC and SDHC Memory Cards Yes Yes
Battery / External power EN-EL20 / Yes LP-E12 / Yes
HDMI / LANC / 3.5mm Audio Input Yes / Yes / Yes Yes / No / Yes
Cost $1,000.00 $448 incl 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens, flash, case, and EF-M to EF lens adapter**

* Extrapolated. May be wrong.
** B&H while supplies last

So, you know, just to recap, the EOS M is smaller, lighter, faster, twice the resolution sensor, three times the resolution display, higher dynamic range, includes lens, flash, lens adapter, case, and still costs less then half the cost of the Pocket Cinema camcorder.

Make no mistake, the Pocket Cinema is superior to the EOS M out of the box. But I've seen what the Magic Lantern firmware can accomplish with the EOS M and it's freakin' amazing.

I will be selling the EF-M 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM in favor of a EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM lens. I've also purchased the EF-M 22mm f/2 STM lens and am giving serious consideration  to the EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM lens if/when Canon sells it in the United States. 

Im sorry, but thats totally wrong.

1- sensor size is not an important thing. Having an APS is not an advantage in the EOS M. The Blackmagic sensor has a MUCH better performance. The only advantage of the EOS is the crop. The blackmagic is much better in everything else - low light, dynamic range, color etc.

2- the Blackmagic, in ProRes, has better Dynamic Range than the 5D using Magic Lantern RAW, so no, you wont have more dynamic range in the EOS M. Your value is totally wrong.

3- the Blackmagic will be able to record 1080p RAW videos. The EOS M cannot record even 720p videos in RAW mode, and they have some artifacts. You will have almost half of the resolution of the Blackmagic.

4- and no, the Blackmagic is not only better out of the box. Its MUCH better than the EOS M with magic lantern, inside the box, outside the box, upside down etc...

5- BOTH cameras have autofocus. Both of them are really bad.

If you want a decent camera to play with, the EOS M is a great choice, but comparing it to the blackmagic is like comparing a hyundai to an F1 car. Both are good, but do you want something consumer-friendly or are you talking about performance?
Quote:
So, you know, just to recap, the EOS M is smaller, lighter, faster, twice the resolution sensor, three times the resolution display, higher dynamic range, includes lens, flash, lens adapter, case, and still costs less then half the cost of the Pocket Cinema camcorder.

Where is it faster? The EOS M may be the slowest camera EVER. Whats the advantage of having twice the sensor resolution? Thats actually worse.

One more thing: for what you want, the EOS M may be a bad camera. You should have bought a camcorder, or at least a DSLR with a flipping screen. To get the most out of the EOS M you will need someone behind it all the time, not in front of it.
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post #15 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 02:07 PM
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Im sorry, but thats totally wrong.

1- sensor size is not an important thing. Having an APS is not an advantage in the EOS M. The Blackmagic sensor has a MUCH better performance. The only advantage of the EOS is the crop. The blackmagic is much better in everything else - low light, dynamic range, color etc.

2- the Blackmagic, in ProRes, has better Dynamic Range than the 5D using Magic Lantern RAW, so no, you wont have more dynamic range in the EOS M. Your value is totally wrong.

3- the Blackmagic will be able to record 1080p RAW videos. The EOS M cannot record even 720p videos in RAW mode, and they have some artifacts. You will have almost half of the resolution of the Blackmagic.

4- and no, the Blackmagic is not only better out of the box. Its MUCH better than the EOS M with magic lantern, inside the box, outside the box, upside down etc...

5- BOTH cameras have autofocus. Both of them are really bad.

If you want a decent camera to play with, the EOS M is a great choice, but comparing it to the blackmagic is like comparing a hyundai to an F1 car. Both are good, but do you want something consumer-friendly or are you talking about performance?
Where is it faster? The EOS M may be the slowest camera EVER. Whats the advantage of having twice the sensor resolution? Thats actually worse.

One more thing: for what you want, the EOS M may be a bad camera. You should have bought a camcorder, or at least a DSLR with a flipping screen. To get the most out of the EOS M you will need someone behind it all the time, not in front of it.

There are many statements that are wrong here (again). I will number the points above that are statements of or that appear to be facts:

1. "sensor size is not an important thng." No, sensor size matters - for given number of pixels, the bigger the sensor the better the low light ability. So even in video crop size matters. This is besides the crop factor issue and thus dof , which are very important.
3. The EOS M cannot record even 720P videos in RAW." No, the EOS M can record 720p RAW videos. I have posted one. Here it is again: https://vimeo.com/72310879. I don't think RAW capability is a reason to get the EOS M. But a fact is a fact. Another fact: the BMPC does not shoot RAW at all, not 1080p or 720p or any p.
5. "The EOS M autofocus is really bad [paraphrase]". No, the EOS M autofocus is actually good. While a statement that it is bad or good is not a statement of fact, in this case the above statement of it being bad is a statement made with little or no experience with either camera.

"The EOS M may be the slowest camera EVER." This is wonderful hyperbole from someone who has little or no experience with the camera. It is meaningless - what is a "slow" camera anyway?

I continue to monitor forums all over on the EOS M and the BMPC. Almost everyone who bought the EOS M is pleasantly surprised. Many people who got the BMPC are unpleasantly surprised, and many have returned them. These are not random samples of people (maybe the BMPC buyers are more picky), of course. The key problems of the BMPC are usability (poor lcd, bad controls, poor WB controls), audio (really bad), and the difficulty of getting any satisfactory color "look" from he video in post, even for experienced pros. No casual video person should ever get the BMPC for any purpose [an inference].
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There are many statements that are wrong here (again). I will number the points above that are statements of or that appear to be facts:

1. "sensor size is not important." No, sensor size matters - for given number of pixels, the bigger the sensor the better the low light ability. So even in video crop size matters. This is besides the crop factor issue and thus dof , which are very important.

The bigger the sensor, the better the low light ability? Thats wrong mark. Wrong. The size of the sensor is NOT important. The important thing is the size of the pixels. The Blackmagic may have a small sensor, but its pixels are bigger than the ones in the 5D. Thats why such a small camera can have a better low light performance than most full frame DSLRs and all APS DSLRs.

Shallow DOF can be easily achieved in a super 16 sensor using fast lenses. No one has troubles with that.

The crop factor is a problem because you will need to spend more to get wide angle lenses. But its not impossible. We have some examples showing that you can get a wider angle in the BM cinema camera than in the full frame 5D. And if you like to go tele, you can go much further.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

3. The EOS M cannot record even 720P videos in RAW." No, the EOS M can record 720p RAW videos. I have posted one. Here it is again: https://vimeo.com/72310879. I don't think RAW capability is a reason to get the EOS M. But a fact is a fact. Another fact: the BMPC does not shoot RAW at all, not 1080p or 720p or any p.

Last I checked the EOS M was able to record something like 1280x600. If its able to shoot full 720p I dont know, but even if its able to do that, 720p is FAR from great. Most RAW videos from the EOS M that I see are upscaled videos, not REAL 720p

As I said, the Blackmagic WILL be able to shoot 1080p RAW. John Brawley is already beta testing it. There are already samples from the Blackmagic Pocket RAW video. RAW video in the BMPCC is not a doubt, its just a matter of time.

https://twitter.com/brawlster/status/388471142123442178/photo/1

Another important thing. Having ProRes is actually better than having RAW. You dont need RAW all the time. Having ProRes against the poor EOS codec is a big advantage.
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I continue to monitor forums all over on the EOS M and the BMPC. Almost everyone who bought the EOS M is pleasantly surprised. Many people who got the BMPC are unpleasantly surprised, and many have returned them. These are not random samples of people (maybe the BMPC buyers are more picky), of course. The key problems of the BMPC are usability (poor lcd, bad controls, poor WB controls), audio (really bad), and the difficulty of getting any satisfactory color "look" from he video in post, even for experienced pros. No casual video person should ever get the BMPC for any purpose.

Well, as I said. put an F1 car in the hands of an ordinary person that is used to drive a Hyundai, and you will have a disaster. But if you are talking about performance, there is no comparison. Different tools for different people. Most people dont need an F1 car to go to the bakery. Its too much trouble - but for those who love the best performance, its a joy.

The BM is a NEW thing. The EOS M is basically like any other camera. When you buy the BM you will need to learn how to shoot in FULL manual mode, you will need to understand really well exposure concepts, dynamic range concepts, you will need to learn how to post process etc. Thats why they are having trouble - because its something new, and the EOS M is more of the same.

Pros experienced with cinema cameras are having no problems at all. The BM ProRes is the same one of the more expensive cameras. The workflow is THE SAME. The only pros having problems are the ones used to 8-bit broadcast cameras. So they are like amateurs.

I know some casual shooters that are having a lot of fun with the BM, but they are hardcore geeks. Its not a camera for everyone.

When I take pictures, I spend more time playing with them in lightroom than taking the actual pictures. Thats the same thing with the BMPCC. And thats actually a joy.
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post #17 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 03:02 PM
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The bigger the sensor, the better the low light ability? Thats wrong mark. Wrong. The size of the sensor is NOT important. The important thing is the size of the pixels. The Blackmagic may have a small sensor, but its pixels are bigger than the ones in the 5D. Thats why such a small camera can have a better low light performance than most full frame DSLRs and all APS DSLRs.

Shallow DOF can be easily achieved in a super 16 sensor using fast lenses. No one has troubles with that.

The crop factor is a problem because you will need to spend more to get wide angle lenses. But its not impossible. We have some examples showing that you can get a wider angle in the BM cinema camera than in the full frame 5D. And if you like to go tele, you can go much further.
Last I checked the EOS M was able to record something like 1280x600 or something like that. f ]its able to shoot full 720p I dont know, but even if its able to do that, 720p is FAR from great. Most RAW videos from the EOS M that I see are upscaled videos, not REAL 720p

As I said, the Blackmagic WILL be able to shoot 1080p RAW. John Brawley is already beta testing it. There are already samples from the Blackmagic Pocket RAW video. RAW video in the BMPCC is not a doubt, its just a matter of time.

https://twitter.com/brawlster/status/388471142123442178/photo/1
Well, as I said. put an F1 car in the hands of an ordinary person that is used to drive a Hyundai, and you will have a disaster. But if you are talking about performance, there is no comparison. Different tools for different people. Most people dont need an F1 car to go to the bakery. Its too much trouble - but for those who love the best performance, its a joy.

When you misquote me, I get not amused (as would anyone I think). Read what I said: sensor size matters, for given number of pixels. Well, guess what? when you increase sensor size for given number of pixels, pixel size is bigger. Do you know what ceteris paribus means? So your statement, which I quoted in full - that "sensor size does not matter" is what is wrong. We agree that pixel size matters for low light ability. The small number of pixels on the BMPC is one reason it is not a stills camera. (another is it does not take stills).

Shallow dof is harder to achieve the bigger the crop factor because you need a faster lens to do it. Faster lenses are more expensive and larger, so I guess we can agree that to get the same dof with the BMPC you need to spend more money and get a bigger, heavier lens. That is not "easily achieved."

You still express doubt that the EOS M can shoot 720p RAW (that is, 1280x720)? Are you claiming I am lying? It doesn't matter how may posted EOS M RAW videos are not 720p, what matters is that at least one is using ML on a real, marketed EOS M. And I have done it (along with others who have), as I said and posted.

The BMPC does not shoot RAW. That is not a "doubt" it is a fact. A "doubt" is about whether it will ever shoot RAW for other than the one paid consultant, let alone RAW at 1080p.

I am glad you agree that the BMPC is for the elite few who can master the video clips and have the leisure time and money to work with the camera and its needed accessories in the field. Not for someone whose aspiration is to become an actor, not a videographer (see the op).
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post #18 of 33 Old 11-03-2013, 03:20 PM
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Im sorry, but thats...

 

I came across your initial defamatory rant against the EOS M (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494640/blackmagic-pocket-vs-eos-m-low-light) after I had purchased an EOS M and had responded to the OP in this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. I am neither a EOS M bigot nor a BMPC bigot. I am only a I-Want-My-Cake-And-Eat-It-Too bigot and in that regard the EOS M wins.

 

I apologize for thinking that the BMPC did not have autofocus. I was mistaken.

 

I feel strongly... had Canon (after fully exploiting the capability of the EOS M like Magic Lantern has done) marketed the EOS M as a camcorder... that I would not be able to afford it. That it would have been an expensive success. They screwed up. I'm grateful.

 

I get to play with a high dynamic range camera and RAW video for a far lower pay-to-play price then I expected. It is what it is and that's the end of it for me. Fini.

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I came across your initial defamatory rant against the EOS M (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494640/blackmagic-pocket-vs-eos-m-low-light) after I had purchased an EOS M and had responded to the OP in this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. I am neither a EOS M bigot nor a BMPC bigot. I am only a I-Want-My-Cake-And-Eat-It-Too bigot and in that regard the EOS M wins.

I apologize for thinking that the BMPC did not have autofocus. I was mistaken.

I feel strongly had Canon (after fully exploiting the capability of the EOS M like Magic Lantern has done) marketed the EOS M as a camcorder that I would not be able to afford it. That it would have been an expensive success. They screwed up. I'm grateful.

I get to play with a high dynamic range camera and RAW video for a far lower pay-to-play price then I expected. It is what it is and that's the end of it for me. Fini.

Don't forget, you have a great stills camera too. smile.gif Sometimes stills are nice...
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When you misquote me, I get not amused (as would anyone I think). Read what I said: sensor size matters, for given number of pixels. Well, guess ,what? when you increase sensor size for given number of pixels, pixel size is bigger. Do you know what ceteris paribus means? So your statement, which I quoted in full - that "sensor size does not matter" is what is wrong. We agree that pixel size matters for low light ability. The small number of pixels on the BMPC is one reason it is not a stills camera. (another is it does not take stills).

No. I just wanted to make clear that when we talk about video cameras, we shouldn't use the logic of the sensor size, because that can fool a lot of people. Dedicated video cameras dont use the same standard pixel size of the stills cameras. It was pretty clear to me what you said about the pixel count, but I wanted to show the OP that he should look at the sensor from another perspective. It was not for you, it was for him.
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Shallow dof is harder to achieve the bigger the crop factor because you need a faster lens to do it. Faster lenses are more expensive and larger, so I guess we can agree that to get the same dof with the BMPC you need to spend more money and get a bigger, heavier lens. That is not "easily achieved."

There are pretty small and cheap lenses that can give you shallow DOF. I've tested a 400USD f1.7 pancake lens in the BMPCC and I was getting some pretty cool shots. The BM with that lens could fit my pocket. With a little more than that you can focus on someones eyes and blur their nose and ears, although I hate that. Too much shallow DOF makes things artificial.
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You still express doubt that the EOS M can shoot 720p RAW (that is, 1280x720)? Are you claiming I am lying? It doesn't matter how may posted EOS M RAW videos are not 720p, what matters is that at least one is using ML on a real, marketed EOS M. And I have done it (along with others who have), as I said and posted.

I said I didnt know mark. I dont check out the Magic Lantern forum on daily basis. If its able to do it, thats great.
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The BMPC does not shoot RAW. That is not a "doubt" it is a fact. A "doubt" is about whether it will ever shoot RAW for other than the one paid consultant, let alone RAW at 1080p.

Well, im pretty confident it will, and I've already played with the RAW samples posted by John B. - and they look awesome! It says in the box mark - RAW wink.gif
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I am glad you agree that the BMPC is for the elite few who can master the video clips and have the leisure time and money to work with the camera and its needed accessories in the field. Not for someone whose aspiration is to become an actor, not a videographer (see the op).

I totally agree with that. Never said it was for everyone. And getting back to the topic, I think that even the EOS M is not the right tool for him. He would be better with a full auto camcorder.
He is probably excited with the samples like the ones you post, but getting those images demands some knowledge and work.
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I came across your initial defamatory rant against the EOS M

It was probably one of the most "technical" topics of the camcorder section. If you think its defamatory, its probably because you had a hard time understanding it. But hey, you are an actor wink.gif
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It was probably one of the most "technical" topics of the camcorder section. If you think its defamatory, its probably because you had a hard time understanding it. But hey, you are an actor wink.gif

 

Thedest,

 

Comparing the EOS M (sans Magic Lantern) to the BMPC is disingenuous at best. I can't imagine what you were thinking. The EOS M was marketed as a bridge product between point-and-shoot and SLR cameras, Canon's first entry into the mirrorless marketplace. On the other hand the BMPC was lauded as a high resolution, HDR camcorder and the cheapest option to capture RAW video on the market. It was like dissing the family station wagon because it didn't perform like a NASCAR racecar

 

Had you been honest and compared the EOS M with Magic Lantern (EOS M/ML) to the BMPC then it would have been an extremely interesting exercise. Instead of comparing the EOS M/ML 14 bits of color space to the BMPC's 10 bits you compared the stock EOS M's 8 bits of color space to the BMPC's 10 bits, then gleefully pointed out over and over how inadequate 8 bits of color space were. Well, DUH! And that's just one example.

 

Furthermore I'm not an actor, nor (for that matter) was the OP. The actor was the SISTER of the OP. I've rarely seen anybody trash their credibility as enthusiastically as you have. It's just a suggestion but you might consider calming down, wipe the foam off your mouth, and think how you're coming across. I've no doubt that you have tons of experience and knowledge, that I could learn a LOT from you. But right now I wouldn't know what to believe.

 

Luck.

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you compared the stock EOS M's 8 bits of color space to the BMPC's 10 bits, then gleefully pointed out over and over how inadequate 8 bits of color space were. Well, DUH! And that's just one example.

Its not "DUH". Actually, most people had no idea about the differences between those cameras (I made a paint brush draw to make a point once, because people were not understanding). I wanted to disclose the differences between 8-bit cameras (everything we had in the consumer market) and 10-bit + a better codec (what we will probably get in the next years). When you compare the BMPCC with the EOS M, you are actually comparing it to almost all 8-bit cameras, including 15k cameras.

Not a long time ago the discussions about image quality were always about resolution and artifacts. Now we (yes, including me) are learning that there are more important stuff going on. Mark hated DSLR videos like no one else. He always defended camcorders, and now he loves the footage of an APS mirrorless. We always discussed sharpness. Now we are understanding that sharpness is not the most important thing in the world.

The BMPCC is an advanced camera, but im pretty sure that after it everyone that understood the differences is waiting hard for a more consumer friendly camera with the same bit depth, better codec and more DR.

It was actually a pretty useful comparison. The release of this camera opened my eyes and made enthusiasts more demanding - and thats good. The BMPCC is far from perfect, but its an important first step to give us better cameras.
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...most people had no idea about the differences between those cameras ...between 8-bit cameras (everything we had in the consumer market) and 10-bit + a better codec. (what we will probably get in the next years).
The BMPCC is an advanced camera, but im pretty sure that after it everyone that understood the differences is waiting hard for a more consumer friendly camera with the same bit depth, better codec and more DR.

It was actually a pretty useful comparison. The release of this camera opened my eyes and made enthusiasts more demanding - and thats good. The BMPCC is far from perfect, but its an important first step to give us better cameras.

 

I only argue that your post was aggressively (and unfairly) slanted against the EOS M. I've little doubt though that you are correct that BlackMagic has raised public awareness of color space, of 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2 versus 4:4:4 and the bandwidth constraints therein. The BMPC (and EOS M/ML) are pushing the SDXC form factor to limits that were probably impossible to imagine when the SD standard was proposed.  

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My friend, english is my 4th language. Sometimes I may sound harsh, but thats probably because Im not that good at english. I only write whats enough to prove my point biggrin.gif

You probably dont remember but I was one of the first ones here to disclose the EOS M as a good camcorder. People threw rocks at me because of that. At that time considering the EOS M as a camcorder was a sin. So as an 8-bit camera, I really like it.

The problem is that once you taste something better, its hard to get back - and I had the chance to play with RAW and ProRes HQ footage.

Consumers and a big part of prosumers have no idea about the advantages of a higher bit depth, color space etc - but some of them are aware of that, and thats a first step.

And yep, we need a faster way to record data. Our ordinary cards cant handle HQ 4k footage, but thats not a big problem. We already have the tech for that, its just a matter of starting to sell it. The problem is that for the average consumer, there is no demand for that. Maybe with more 4k cameras we will have some improvements.
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post #26 of 33 Old 11-04-2013, 08:15 AM
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https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/78387621 Most videos i see filmed with the BMPC are with a tripod which brings me on to a point that somone may enlighten me on,using all the 3 non fixed lens cameras i have owned M&A has been the big problem,550D /then GH2 probobly the worse and now my EOS M,using a tripod i am happy with my EO M results https://vimeo.com/78511380 while even with a monopd https://vimeo.com/77958070 not so happy,i have many seen many GH2 and more recently EOS M films filmed without a tripod that show no sign of M&A to me,although not a lover of my fixed lens FZ150s video like all my camcorders it has no M&A,i dont have sharpness set too high so i guess its something to live with for me.
On the subject of the BMPC i am not sure how hand held footage looks with it.
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When you say M&A, are you talking about moire and aliasing? If it is, the BMPCC has pretty good performance when we talk about those artifacts. People are getting great results - some tests against canon cameras show no moiré and aliasing coming from the BM.

Here you can see a video I uploaded from the BMPCC. In the second scene you can see some panning shots against some buildings with patterns (bricks. vertical lines etc). I think the result is pretty good.

.

.

BTW, your video with the monopod is not that bad. Most people wont see the artifacts. Here you can see something REALLY bad biggrin.gif

Shot with the new Sony A7. It is almost funny. At the same time its soft as hell and has a lot of moire biggrin.gif Great work from Sony (and thats coming from a guy that owns 2 sony cameras)

.
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post #28 of 33 Old 11-05-2013, 12:28 AM
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Yes moire and aliasing,i have seen it on some BMPCC films along with banding,regarding the Sony film yes its bad but its what i get filming hand held https://vimeo.com/57369071 and like i said i dont recall any GH2 films as bad,although a lot had banding as i did with my GH2 but dont get it with with the EOS M.
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Use some punctuation biggrin.gif Its hard to understand what you're writing! biggrin.gif

The BMPCC has a pretty good performance with M&A and no banding problems. No 8-bit 4:2:0 low bitrate camera can perform better than the BM in that aspect. If you found a video with that, its probably because the user had problems grading it or the video was compressed a lot.

The BMPCC has been tested against the GH3 and most CANON APS and full frame cameras, and no one said that those artifacts were a problem with the BM.

But I honestly think that in cameras like the GH3 and the EOS M M&A are not the end of the world. Its pretty easy to overcome those problems.
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post #30 of 33 Old 11-06-2013, 02:12 AM
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Use some punctuation biggrin.gif Its hard to understand what you're writing! biggrin.gif

The BMPCC has a pretty good performance with M&A and no banding problems. No 8-bit 4:2:0 low bitrate camera can perform better than the BM in that aspect. If you found a video with that, its probably because the user had problems grading it or the video was compressed a lot.

The BMPCC has been tested against the GH3 and most CANON APS and full frame cameras, and no one said that those artifacts were a problem with the BM.

But I honestly think that in cameras like the GH3 and the EOS M M&A are not the end of the world. Its pretty easy to overcome those problems.

Those comments are uncalled for.No wonder your video view is so biased you cant even see commas.biggrin.gif
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