Haters gonna hate: RAW videos in your pocket!!!! - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 170 Old 11-19-2013, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

And here you can see a comparison between the resolution from a cell phone shooting in 4K compared to RAW from a BMCC (note: the BMCC has better resolution than the BMPCC).

The cell phone (even though it is badly compressed) has much better resolution than the BMCC, and the BMPCC will be worse than that.

4K will revolutionize video. Remember, the negative effects of compression will largely disappear when footage is downscaled to 1080p for the typical TV. In a year or two when 4K consumer recording devices start hitting the market the BMPCC will be an unattractive solution. By then of course more sophisticated prosumer cameras will be on the market, and all of those will feature 4K with relatively high bit rates by todays standards.

I've seen those tests and it's pretty amazing. It's truly stunning that you can get a 4K camera in a device that's not even advertised to have it, costs as little as it does and whose main purpose is other than shooting video.

I've seen a number of videos (forget the test patterns) from the Note and it's really pretty extraordinary. Of course the video is far from perfect for reasons that are common to other cellphone cameras, but the colors are surprisingly good and the much greater resolution so adds to that 'window to the world' look, that it's just great to watch these. The amazing thing about these 4K videos is how good they look without even seeing them on a true UHD TV!

I've always been excited about HD from day one (I still get a kick out of watching good material on my plasma) for the sense of reality it brings and 4K just cleans that 'window' that much more. In fact, when viewed up close, it pretty much removes the window entirely!

I am really looking forward to 4K cameras that are small, reasonably priced and fun to use. I could migrate back to the camcorder form factor or stay with a DSLR style body, it just depends on the quality and features.

Some great stuff on the way!
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post #152 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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https://vimeo.com/79853623
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post #153 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post

https://vimeo.com/79853623

Really bad birefringence going on there at about 1:27.
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post #154 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

Really bad birefringence going on there at about 1:27.

The chromatic aberration (purple fringing) is a property of the lens (it's really bad). Nice colors and resolution otherwise in this video.
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post #155 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 07:20 PM
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Looked kind of soft to me and nothing special when I watched on my monitor. But yeah, the CA looked like a lens with some issues. Reminded me of some of the Canon XA camcorders from a few years back. They had some really bad CA.

On my Ipad now, I'll take another look later.
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post #156 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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1 - Chromatic aberration: its a lens problem and can affect every camera. When you shoot RAW, its not a problem. He chose to keep it, but there is a "REMOVE CHROMATIC ABERRATION" button in Lightroom where you can correct that.

Here is a before/after scene shot with the BMPCC. Note the amound of CA in the RAW and how it can be corrected with a click of a button.




2 - Resolution: you cant judge a resolution of a video not knowing how it was exported and after being compressed by vimeo. The BMPCC ProRes has more detail than the GH3 and most camcorders, and the RAW has even more detail than the ProRes.


LOL, Ken is such a hater. He tries so hard not to like the BM.
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post #157 of 170 Old 11-20-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The chromatic aberration (purple fringing) is a property of the lens (it's really bad). Nice colors and resolution otherwise in this video.

No, if it is just purple it is probably birefringence. There was a discussion about this on one of the Canon boards, apparently that is what their engineers say most purple fringing is due to, not CA.

It is caused by light scattering off the bayer filters. The green cells apparently scatter the most light, so you see purple typically. You will see the glow where you have strong backlight against a high contrast boundary. It will appear at different parts of the image, depending on the direction of the light.

It is a bigger issue with small sensor cameras with their apertures open at longer focal lengths. I haven't really seen it in footage from cameras with large sensors, at least it is much less noticeable.
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post #158 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post


2 - Resolution: you cant judge a resolution of a video not knowing how it was exported and after being compressed by vimeo. The BMPCC ProRes has more detail than the GH3 and most camcorders, and the RAW has even more detail than the ProRes.

Debeyering uses information from adjacent pixels to construct the final pixel, so all cameras that use beyer filters are going to have less than the nominal resolution (probably around 70%). Camera's that use 3 sensors get closer to the nominal resolution, but it will still be less since perfect registration of the images is not possible.

Some information will be lost in compression, but usually that will be the more subtle differences and will not change the visual apparent overall resolution of the image that much.

If you compare camcorder output from a Panasonic to a Canon for example, you will see a higher resolution with the Panasonic, but if you freeze frames you will notice that the Panasonic loses much more of the subtle differences within the image compared to a Canon (at the same bit rates). The same thing happens when you compare RAW against a compressed format. Ultimately the biggest impact is going to come from the sensor technology and the nominal resolution however.
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post #159 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

No, if it is just purple it is probably birefringence. There was a discussion about this on one of the Canon boards, apparently that is what their engineers say most purple fringing is due to, not CA.

It is a bigger issue with small sensor cameras with their apertures open at longer focal lengths. I haven't really seen it in footage from cameras with large sensors, at least it is much less noticeable.

Its not just purple. There is blue, purple and green aberrations. Really easy to see.



And purple fringing IS a kind of CA.

And its not related to the sensor size. There is some relation with the size of the pixel of the sensor though. And in that aspect, dont forget that the BMPCC has bigger pixels than most full frame DSLRs, including the 5DMK3.

Im an ex-owner of a 5DMK3, and I had problems with PF/CA all the time. Here is an example.



And here is a correction. Even with a JPEG you can do something. Its not as good as what you can do with RAW, but its decent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

Some information will be lost in compression, but usually that will be the more subtle differences and will not change the visual apparent overall resolution of the image that much.

The same thing happens when you compare RAW against a compressed format. Ultimately the biggest impact is going to come from the sensor technology and the nominal resolution however.

Thats the difference between RAW and h264



And thats the difference between a BM and the GH3 ALL-I



Forget how much better the DR and the colors are, can you see the difference in resolution? wink.gif

(And thats after 3 compressions!! 3!!! imagine how big the difference is between the original files)

Ask mark to run a test. He owns a GH3 and a BMPCC. The GH3 is great, but its not in the same league.
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post #160 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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One more. Its boring, but it looks good.
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post #161 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 08:50 AM
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Review of the BMPCC by an experienced reviewer (but who made a lousy video!):

"I've shot video with just about all of the available video-capable DSLRs, the Canon 5D MKII and III, the Nikon D800 and D7000, the Panasonic GH3 and a wide variety of other compact system cameras. None of them can hold a candle to the image quality available from the BMPCC, or come within 3-5 stops of its dynamic range and gradeability. And that's without raw yet!"

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/camcorders/black_magic_pocket_camera.shtml#update

The video: https://vimeo.com/75857817#at=23

One of the reasons for my vibrant color video.
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post #162 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 10:28 AM
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Yeah, certainly not an impressive video and I sit here scratching my head with him drawing conclusions based on work like that. I don't know if it was the site's compression, but there was a fair amount of noise in his video too.

I'd seen his review before. He's one of the guys that said the audio 'sucks'.

I think we've learned in this thread that people see (and hear) things differently for sure. smile.gif
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post #163 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Its not just purple. There is blue, purple and green aberrations. Really easy to see.

And purple fringing IS a kind of CA.

And its not related to the sensor size. There is some relation with the size of the pixel of the sensor though. And in that aspect, dont forget that the BMPCC has bigger pixels than most full frame DSLRs, including the 5DMK3.

Im an ex-owner of a 5DMK3, and I had problems with PF/CA all the time. Here is an example.

And here is a correction. Even with a JPEG you can do something. Its not as good as what you can do with RAW, but its decent.

The lens might well have CA as well, but the fringing in the video at ~1.27 is typical of sensor birefringence. The still of the backlit forest you posted shows the same effect. I have seen video where you have both CA AND birefringence (it is a pet hate of mine, so yes, I notice these things).

You can correct the color in AE so it is less noticeable, but will still leave artifacts in the image.

Visually you notice it more when looking at footage on a computer monitor, on TV's the visual impact is less apparent, although I have seen in sometimes in nature documentaries.
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post #164 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

One of the reasons for my vibrant color video.

There is nothing wrong with your colors mark. The problem is that you left the DR range crushed, and that gives the impression of over-saturation, but its just a lack of gradation because the image is expanded too much in the midtones and too crushed in the shadows and highlights.
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post #165 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

The lens might well have CA as well, but the fringing in the video at ~1.27 is typical of sensor birefringence.

Never heard about that. Will read something about it later. Thanks for the info, although that doesnt bother me too much, since it can be corrected. Always nice to learn something.
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post #166 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Review of the BMPCC by an experienced reviewer (but who made a lousy video!):

I have seen dozens of reviews, made by experienced people, famous people, indie filmmakers and amateurs. They all agree that the BMPCC is by far superior to all of those cameras. Many of them were humble and said that they had to learn how to work with ProRes and RAW first.
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post #167 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yeah, certainly not an impressive video and I sit here scratching my head with him drawing conclusions based on work like that. I don't know if it was the site's compression, but there was a fair amount of noise in his video too.

I'd seen his review before. He's one of the guys that said the audio 'sucks'.

I think we've learned in this thread that people see (and hear) things differently for sure. smile.gif

He conveyed no test of the audio, nor provided an example, nor used any audio in his video. These guys know nothing about audio - one review guy unknowingly connected a mismatched-impedence mic, got hiss and concluded the preamps were noisy (hiss is a symptom of a mismatch)!

I provided a real audio example, which is more than perfectly fine for internal-mics audio

The posted video sure undermines credibility, and come to think of it he carried out no video tests either!
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post #168 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by thedest View Post

There is nothing wrong with your colors mark. The problem is that you left the DR range crushed, and that gives the impression of over-saturation, but its just a lack of gradation because the image is expanded too much in the midtones and too crushed in the shadows and highlights.

So what caused the crush? I did not do anything in Lightroom but set the exposure level, wb and gently increase saturation to get skin tones and whites (or greys) correct. Everything else at default. CinemaDNG is linear, not log.
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post #169 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So what caused the crush? I did not do anything in Lightroom but set the exposure level, wb and gently increase saturation to get skin tones and whites (or greys) correct. Everything else at default. CinemaDNG is linear, not log.

You shot the video using the ETTR technique. That means that you have exposed for the highlights. When you do that in a high contrast scene you crush the shadows, because you dont have a smart algorithm like the one we have in the ProRes to expand and use all the available DR. You have all the DR in your file, but its not organized.

* LOG will expand the dynamic range automatically for you, so in the ProRes you have almost nothing to recover

So when you shoot with RAW, correcting the exposure is not enough. In fact, correcting the exposure should be only the second part. The first part is always to expand the crushed DR. In RAW, you will always have a crushed DR. Depending on your technique you will crush the highlights or the shadows (ETTR, ETTL). But they are not lost, you just have to recover them.

If you dont mind sharing those 2 DNGs, I can show you how you can make use of the full dynamic range in 10 seconds. On those 2 you have crushed shadows AND crushed highlights. If you expand them you will see that your saturation is perfect.

On those 2 shots you have 13 stops of dynamic range, but there is a difference between AVAILABLE dynamic range and VISIBLE dynamic range. Since you havent recovered all of the dynamic range, you probably have 10, 8, who knows how many stops of dynamic range (visible).



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post #170 of 170 Old 11-21-2013, 04:01 PM
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