Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 06:20 PM
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William, I imported Ken's XAVC-S clips into FCPX 10.1.1 and all was fine even if the FCPX help page only listed the regular XAVC as a compatible format. One thing I've learned is my system needs an upgrade if I want to do any meaningful work using these XAVC materials!
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post #632 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 06:34 PM
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Ken's ducks swimming file opened in Premier Elements 11 and created a project with settings of 1920 by 1080. The clip is too short to be able to comment on editing smoothness. Version 12 is out and may work better but I was unable to find if XAVC and XAVC-S were specifically supported.

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post #633 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 07:12 PM
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B&H is shipping now.
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post #634 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 07:12 PM
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Ken, TMPGEnc does produce unaltered XAVC S video that I can play using the same media players I can play the original Ax100 clips with. I suggest you check what you must have done wrong, before giving up on it. You just add the clips, choose to render in MP4 and output. That's it. I can't imagine what could have gone wrong, but it is not normal. I am going to upload an AX100 video I made using this program.
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post #635 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 07:25 PM
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I'll give it another try ttomorrow Mark. I had no issues with AVCHD, so I was surprised.
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post #636 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 07:56 PM
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If any of you proud new owners find a way to adjust the brightness of the EVF please let me know.

Gene
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post #637 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 07:59 PM
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Who needs to take stills while shooting video? - the video makes great stills. Some examples of FDR AX100 UHD frame grabs:








These are compressed (by Vimeo) versions of the frame grabs; the originals right from the video are more impressive.
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post #638 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post

If any of you proud new owners find a way to adjust the brightness of the EVF please let me know.

Gene

Yeah, I'm surprised Eugene, I can't find it either. It seems only the LCD can be adjusted in 2 levels, but I'm OK with the brightness of the VF. I'm a bit surprised to see there are no 'creative styles' where contrast, color and sharpness can be adjusted. It's been a while since I've had a handicam, so maybe those settings were more reserved to their DSLRs. I know my RX10 has it.

It's nice to have, even though I typically keep those at default.
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post #639 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 08:09 PM
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Pretty nice grabs, Mark.
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post #640 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Who needs to take stills while shooting video? - the video makes great stills. Some examples of FDR AX100 UHD frame grabs:

Those colors look very cheap and camcorderish. They are pale, fluorescent and undersaturated. It looks like a sad and depressing video (not your fault). And there is a purple cast. Typical on Sony camcorders.

Im afraid that your framegrabs wouldnt be good pictures Mark. The resolution is great for a video, but they dont look like real pictures. A 1080p framegrab from a 5D 1080p RAW video would give you a much better picture.








Is there a way to change the picture style on this camera? Is there a "Portrait" profile? If it has, a nice way to achieve better colors is to set the Contrast and the Saturation all the way down to -3 and increase the saturation in post. That way you will avoid problems with the Lift/Gamma/Gain triangle.

Im very disappointed with those new 4K cameras, even the Blackmagic. Im really hoping to see a 4K DSLR from Canon. Magic Lantern is my next best bet.
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post #641 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Those colors look very cheap and camcorderish. They are pale, fluorescent and undersaturated. It looks like a sad and depressing video (not your fault). And there is a purple cast. Typical on Sony camcorders.

Im afraid that your framegrabs wouldnt be good pictures Mark. The resolution is great for a video, but they dont look like real pictures. A 1080p framegrab from a 5D 1080p RAW video would give you a much better picture.








Is there a way to change the picture style on this camera? Is there a "Portrait" profile? If it has, a nice way to achieve better colors is to set the Contrast and the Saturation all the way down to -3 and increase the saturation in post. That way you will avoid problems with the Lift/Gamma/Gain triangle.

Im very disappointed with those new 4K cameras, even the Blackmagic. Im really hoping to see a 4K DSLR from Canon. Magic Lantern is my next best bet.

The top two examples are ugly and trashy-looking. The third has a lovely look, but has an air of phoniness - I wish the world actually looked like that. I do like the last one.

Are you using a color-calibrated monitor? Perhaps the undersaturation you see in the frame grabs and video is due to your viewing device. On my editing machine, the colors from the video look rich and natural while yours look garish and phony. I would check your viewing devices. On some of my cheap monitors, the video colors do look a bit wan.
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post #642 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 09:32 PM
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In case you guys haven't seen it up on YouTube, this guy in Japan has posted the most comprehensive set of test videos of the AX100 so far...

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAQZSnJ9gCwrY0OKzRjJLUw

Certainly not as good as the sample footage posted by Sony during CES, but still better than just about any other sub-$5000 camcorder I've seen. I've preordered one, but was debating between it and the Lumix GH4. The GH4 is certainly a more capable still camera, and the interchangeable lenses are really nice (but expensive), but I already have a good still camera and I'm looking for a dedicated video shooter.
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post #643 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The top two examples are ugly and trashy-looking. The third has a lovely look, but has an air of phoniness - I wish the world actually looked like that. I do like the last one.

Are you using a color-calibrated monitor? Perhaps the undersaturation you see in the frame grabs and video is due to your viewing device. On my editing machine, the colors from the video look rich and natural while yours look garish and phony. I would check your viewing devices. On some of my cheap monitors, the video colors do look a bit wan.

I couldn't agree more. The last picture was the only one I thought was good.

Such a bizarre comment that your frame grabs were cheap, camcorderish, pale and fluorescent (the last two are fascinating, 'weak' and yet still 'fluorescent'). Oh well. In reality they looked very realistic and quite believable.

It's funny how some people expect winter colors to look like summer colors. Most people shooting in the winter know that colors are, by their seasonal nature, more pale.
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post #644 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrauss View Post

In case you guys haven't seen it up on YouTube, this guy in Japan has posted the most comprehensive set of test videos of the AX100 so far...

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAQZSnJ9gCwrY0OKzRjJLUw

Certainly not as good as the sample footage posted by Sony during CES, but still better than just about any other sub-$5000 camcorder I've seen. I've preordered one, but was debating between it and the Lumix GH4. The GH4 is certainly a more capable still camera, and the interchangeable lenses are really nice (but expensive), but I already have a good still camera and I'm looking for a dedicated video shooter.

We are beyond these really awful amateurish "test" videos, and are shooting real videos now that many have the camera. Most of those "test" examples are terrible, waving the camera around, uninteresting, and grossly compressed by Youtube. In case you didn't notice, this thread begins with a video that avoids most of the amateur nonsense, but explores the limits and possibilities of the camera, and you can look at it (by downloading) in its original quality. We are discussing more subtle issues (or perhaps not).
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post #645 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post


Are you using a color-calibrated monitor? Perhaps the undersaturation you see in the frame grabs and video is due to your viewing device. On my editing machine, the colors from the video look rich and natural while yours look garish and phony. I would check your viewing devices. On some of my cheap monitors, the video colors do look a bit wan.

I do use a high quality, well calibrated display. Specially because I like to edit my pictures and videos.

But talking about displays is not important. Checking that is very easy.


Here you can see the AX100 framegrab. The red arrow indicates the level of saturation recommended for a well calibrated TV. That is the parameter used for TV delivery. The blue arrow indicates the level of saturation that you can use on high-end displays and in pictures, without bringing artifacts. As you can see, the video is undersaturated.





On the 5D video, you can see that the video just hits the spot for the desired level of saturation for TV delivery, so the colors should look perfect on a well calibrated display.





Companies usually increase the saturation and contrast on most monitors to "wow" the consumer. If you are using an oversaturated display, you will probably see the AX100 video well saturated and the 5D video oversaturated.

Even good displays are usually not calibrated, because the average consumer will never do that. They just want vivid colors. Calibrating a monitor is not very easy.
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post #646 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 10:24 PM
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Thanks Ken! As you noted, these look amazing on a 4K set!

This stuff is orgasmic! I'll be joining the club real soon.

Have fun fellas!

Now that's how you supposed to drive!

Onkyo TX-NR807, Polk LSi15, Polk LSiC, Polk LSiF/X

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post #647 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eugene, the trick is to record everything in 4K, whether the immediate intent is to watch in 4K or to watch in HD. Recording in 4K and watching that file downrez'd to HD is much better than recording from the beginning in HD. In fact, Sony recommends this procedure for exactly that reason. quote]

So the quality in 1080 60p is not as good as the RX10 ? If not that might be a deal breaker for me.

Is there a limited length you can record on the 120fps mode?

Is there a 240p mode?
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post #648 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 11:01 PM
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So the quality in 1080 60p is not as good as the RX10 ? If not that might be a deal breaker for me.

Is there a limited length you can record on the 120fps mode?

Is there a 240p mode?
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post #649 of 2435 Old 03-20-2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

4K is only about 8mp. Would you like to sit for two hours looking at stills ?

If they are good ones ,cant be worse than many of the videos shown biggrin.gif
To be fair i am with you on this but i wonder what the percentage of amateur photographers compared to video makers there are in the world.
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post #650 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 12:46 AM
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Congratulations to the people who got their hands on the Sony AX100. I do have some questions for you guys.

For reasons that I don't understand, I don't see the bitrate listed in Sony's specification page for the AX100. What's the maximum bitrate for UHD at 24p and 30p?

Is there enough latitude in the file to correct exposure, white balance, and etc.?

I'm somewhat conflicted between getting the Panasonic GH4 and the AX100. I think the AX100 will be cheaper. The GH4 can shoot at IPB 100Mbit/sec at UHD at both 24p and 30p respectively. Since the GH4 isn't out yet and no testing can be done, does anyone here know what other advantages the AX100 have over the 4K at the moment besides price?

Thank you.
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post #651 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

If they are good ones ,cant be worse than many of the videos shown biggrin.gif
To be fair i am with you on this but i wonder what the percentage of amateur photographers compared to video makers there are in the world.
I bet there are more clueless people on the planet than people with a clue. Just watch Ellen try to take a selfie with a smartphone.


At least Bradley Cooper has a clue how to take a selfie.


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post #652 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post

The camera is working just fine in the 4K mode, the horizontal resolution peters out at app. 1800 lines per picture height. At Best Buy the camera played into a
Sony 4K TV set via HDMI connection but that set was unable to play the SDXC video files via USB adapter. The video just looks so good, a pleasure to watch.

This cannot be said in the AX100 2K mode. The std HD resolution peters out near 800 lines PPH and there are lots of artifacts on the test pattern. My nearly 2 year old
Panasonic HC-X900M is quite superior in the STD HD mode.

While I bought the AX100 for exclusive 4K use, owners might be well advised to forgo the 2K mode.

This means if I want to get best PQ in 1080p, I have to record in 4K and downscale at my computer? Why can't the camera downscale to a similiar 1080p quality?
So, if I want to make an HD-recording, I have to decide: Do I use 1080p60 with inferior PQ or do I use 4K with only 30p but better PQ when downscaled later.

Can anyone explain if this has some technical reasons (p.e. CPU-power)
Is it just bad or intentional bad engineering?
Is it to push 4K?
Is it to seperate the AX100 from the CX900, which is basically the same camera minus 4K badge, assuming they used the same firmware and just took away the 4K options in the CX900?
Since I am not really into 4K right now, I was really hoping to save 500 Bucks and get the CX900, but this seems to be not the best decision after reading this if you want to get best 1080p quality...
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post #653 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post

The camera is working just fine in the 4K mode, the horizontal resolution peters out at app. 1800 lines per picture height. At Best Buy the camera played into a
Sony 4K TV set via HDMI connection but that set was unable to play the SDXC video files via USB adapter. The video just looks so good, a pleasure to watch.

This cannot be said in the AX100 2K mode. The std HD resolution peters out near 800 lines PPH and there are lots of artifacts on the test pattern. My nearly 2 year old
Panasonic HC-X900M is quite superior in the STD HD mode.

While I bought the AX100 for exclusive 4K use, owners might be well advised to forgo the 2K mode.

PB from my computer is by VLC player it is the only one that will handle the 60Mb data stream. Media player can handle 4K material downloaded from Youtube since the max bit rate
is around 30Mb.

I think that the camera has a tendency to increase the gain too much for low light shots. The noise is of a fine nature, reducing the gain by 6DB will result in nearly noise free shots.

As mentioned I edit $K with Power Director 12, the program uses proxi files so editing is speedy.

Looks like a keeper if proper consideration is given to the 30 frame rate.

Eugene

PS tried to attach some video files but MT2 files are rejected.
Thanks for the detailed info. It looks like Sony mastered the downscale from 20MP to 2160p (8MP) but not from 20MP to 1080p (2MP). if so, that's not a good sign for the CX900.
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post #654 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flausch View Post

This means if I want to get best PQ in 1080p, I have to record in 4K and downscale at my computer? Why can't the camera downscale to a similiar 1080p quality?
So, if I want to make an HD-recording, I have to decide: Do I use 1080p60 with inferior PQ or do I use 4K with only 30p but better PQ when downscaled later.

Can anyone explain if this has some technical reasons (p.e. CPU-power)
Is it just bad or intentional bad engineering?
Is it to push 4K?
Is it to seperate the AX100 from the CX900, which is basically the same camera minus 4K badge, assuming they used the same firmware and just took away the 4K options in the CX900?
Since I am not really into 4K right now, I was really hoping to save 500 Bucks and get the CX900, but this seems to be not the best decision after reading this if you want to get best 1080p quality...

You have the dilemma correct, but your speculations about why are off. It is not bad engineering. Sony has actually stated why they kept the shutter speed at 30fps - so that the bitrate could be held down and one could still get good quality UHD video. Why? So that one could use standard cheap SD cards and still get plenty of footage. Also to maintain a small form-factor and fanless; heat generation may also have factored in.

The Sony pro 4K camcorder uses exactly the same Bionz processor and shoots at 60p (so it is no CPU power), but that gigantic camcorder needs special (proprietary) expensive cards that can take the higher bitrate required. The Panasonic 4K also needs the not-yet released, more expensive newer-speced sd cards, and it also limits the frame rate in UHD to 30fps. The Black Magic 4K cam uses SSD's (and has no 60P)!
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post #655 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Strider View Post

Congratulations to the people who got their hands on the Sony AX100. I do have some questions for you guys.

For reasons that I don't understand, I don't see the bitrate listed in Sony's specification page for the AX100. What's the maximum bitrate for UHD at 24p and 30p?

Is there enough latitude in the file to correct exposure, white balance, and etc.?

I'm somewhat conflicted between getting the Panasonic GH4 and the AX100. I think the AX100 will be cheaper. The GH4 can shoot at IPB 100Mbit/sec at UHD at both 24p and 30p respectively. Since the GH4 isn't out yet and no testing can be done, does anyone here know what other advantages the AX100 have over the 4K at the moment besides price?

Thank you.

The UHD bitrate is 60Mbps for either 24p or 30p. That is not the max bitrate, and bitrate is not the only determinant of UHD quality. And bitrate is only one aspect of the codec (we do not know if the codec of the Panasonic is as efficient). So far, people have not been overly impressed by the resolution of the GH4 but it is hard to tell.

The AX100 is much cheaper, once you factor in the lenses you will need for the GH4 and the special sd cards required.
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post #656 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 07:44 AM
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Mark is spot on. Regarding the question of shooting in 4K or HD for actual HD production. To me it makes absolutely no sense to shoot in HD as opposed to 4K. Why would you not want to have a permanent archived file for later playback in 4K? Once you've shot whatever you've shot and wherever you shot it, it's gone. So shoot it in the best quality for 4K now or 4K later...even years later.

As for the other rationale, the downscaled HD simply looks great on an HD screen...better than probably anything you've ever seen from an HD camera. To be honest, I haven't even attempted to shoot in the HD mode, but according to Sony, it will look better watching in downcoverted HD as opposed to shooting in HD. It makes all the sense in the world.

Now for editing, many editing programs will automatically downrez the 4K file to HD if you set up your project as a regular HD project. So in many cases it's no more than dropping your file on the timeline.
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post #657 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

Thanks for the detailed info. It looks like Sony mastered the downscale from 20MP to 2160p (8MP) but not from 20MP to 1080p (2MP). if so, that's not a good sign for the CX900.

It may be more like they've mastered downscaling the in-camera 4K file to 1080p (on the fly) than going directly from 20MP to 2MP when shooting in the HD mode. Since I haven't shot in HD yet, I'm not sure of the disparity between viewing the downsampled, in-camera 4K>1080p as opposed to originating the file in 1080p. But again, for the reasons I mentioned, I just don't see the purpose.
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post #658 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

.......Now for editing, many editing programs will automatically downrez the 4K file to HD if you set up your project as a regular HD project. So in many cases it's no more than dropping your file on the timeline.

That is exactly what Premier Elements 11 did last night with your duck clip. Since then, I did some more homework. Steve Grisseti, one of the MVPs at the Adobe PrE forum wrote that "Version 12 includes project presets as well as output templates for XAVC video at 3840x2160, so it is capable of editing video at those specs." Steve has a website, publishes books and makes video editing tutorials, including for Lynda.com. His training tools tend toward the lower budget consumer videographer. He covers both Premier Elements and Vegas Home Movie Studio, as well as others.

FWIW and for those that may be researching 4K editing choices, Premier Elements is under $100 and runs on both Apples and PCs. Free trials are available.

Bill
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post #659 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Who needs to take stills while shooting video? - the video makes great stills. Some examples of FDR AX100 UHD frame grabs:

Those are some very nice still grabs from the video.

But in all seriousness is the AX100 able to grab RAW or jpg stills while shooting video?
Or is it mode dependent?

Rob
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post #660 of 2435 Old 03-21-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by RobAC View Post

Those are some very nice still grabs from the video.

But in all seriousness is the AX100 able to grab RAW or jpg stills while shooting video?
Or is it mode dependent?

Rob

No RAW stills, but you can shoot jpegs while shooting video (there is a photo button) and they will have higher resolution than the 4K frames. What is not yet clear is whether some of the extra resolution is straight from the sensor or is interpolated or with what video modes you cannot do this (the little manual does not say and amazingly the detailed manual is not yet available, but will be).
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