Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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Camcorders > Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread
William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 02:31 PM 03-30-2014
I have not gotten used to holding the camera. I guess the standard mode for steady shot is working well.
I am most interested in how it performs without stablization. Waiting for my fluid head+tripod.
Next time I am in a car, i will post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful mutt View Post

Hi William, really enjoying your footage with the AX100, such detail and sharpness. How are you finding the image stabiliser! How does it actually compare to the Sony active steady shot?

If you get the chance would you be kind enough to post a clip from within a moving car at night and wind down the shutter speed to it's slowest. I am very interested in how it behaves.

And I agree that your son has those moves sorted!

Thanks again.

Simon.


Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 04:27 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

the details of the AX100 footages on the Sony 65" 4K TV is just so much more than either on the iMac or various retina displays.
I need a smaller 4K display to edit with my macbook pro using FCP-X. (which is beginning to be as easy to use as iMovie)

i hope someone will introduce a 4K sub 30" thunderbolt monitor soon.

Billy, two questions, first how do you watch your AX100 footage on your Sony? I know you can play directly from the 100 to the UHD Sony as I do to my plasma, but do you currently have any way to do that with an edited project? Obviously you could connect a computer directly to the Sony UHD TV, which is what I'm assuming you do.

Second, regarding editing on your Mac, are you using ProRes 422 and if so, how are you handling the file sizes for larger projects?
William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 04:48 PM 03-30-2014
Ken,

1. I watch the original footage by connecting the AX100 to the XBR65X900A. I also have a Mac Mini connected directly to the Sony 4K TV by HDMI but the video drivers only goes to 1080p, so no 4K there. My Macbook Pro does have 4K 2160p outputs to the Sony 4K TV but at a lower than 30p cycle, so it is not useable for Final Cut Pro X editing work.

The video picture to the Sony 4K TV is better when connected with the AX100 than with my Macbook Pro. I hope this is a driver issue, to be fixed by Apple or Sony later as more people uses 4K 2160p.

2. This has been a big issue.

The FDR-AX100 uses is stored as MPEG-4 with a codec of H.264. This is ideal for Youtube 4K.
A 19 seconds worth of 4K 2160/30p video is about 143MB.

But we need to edit for length and add text. Once FCP-X starts to transcode, any of the Apple ProRes 422 formats increase the size to enormous amounts.

That 19 seconds become 1.2 GB with Apple ProRes 422.

I start filming Grease in early April for art schools. I may have to rethink about using 4K or not.
I certainly do not have the processing power for anything for than 5 minutes of 4K footage at the moment.
Even storage will be a concern.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Billy, two questions, first how do you watch your AX100 footage on your Sony? I know you can play directly from the 100 to the UHD Sony as I do to my plasma, but do you currently have any way to do that with an edited project? Obviously you could connect a computer directly to the Sony UHD TV, which is what I'm assuming you do.

Second, regarding editing on your Mac, are you using ProRes 422 and if so, how are you handling the file sizes for larger projects?

William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 04:55 PM 03-30-2014
this compilation was all inside the Smithsonian Air and Space.
I took the auto gain limiter off as it was too crowded and no time to stay in one place and adjust for lighting.
for this longer footage, i had to use the H264 master output option within FCP-X

The 3:30 4K H264 file was 1.65 GB

http://youtu.be/5z_-txLOOok?hd=1
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 04:58 PM 03-30-2014
Thanks Billy. I mentioned about the ProRes because I was at the mall today and was curious to see how Final Cut X would handle a short clip. Just as you mentioned a short 15 second clip ballooned to about 1 gig. Ouch.

My favorite editor is Edius Pro 7 and that uses much smaller file sizes, but not having a 4K display to view on, I'm not sure how much of a visible hit, if any, I'm taking to a 4K edit.
Eugene157's Avatar Eugene157 05:24 PM 03-30-2014





I found a fix for the absence of MP4 thumbnails on Win 7 explorer by installing K-Lite codec pack 64 bit. It also upgraded the Classic Media Player, it now provides smooth PB of AX100 60Mb video files. Before the download it topped out at app 30Mb.


What is the purpose of the XML file? Is it needed?

Eugene





Blasst's Avatar Blasst 05:59 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAC View Post

I second this. After VLC it is my go to player.
It handles files that gives VLC issues. I find it does give a warmer, vivid type look instead of the clear look that VLC gives.
It also has a lot of plugins and add-ons unlike the click and play VLC.

So for movies and tv shows MPC-HC is what I use for the warmer cinematone look.
For viewing what a camcorder actually records without any additional coloration- VLC and my Sony PM or NLE is what I use.

Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixbe View Post

Thanks very much Blasst! MPC-HC is a very advanced mediaplayer. It plays my 50p files as nice as the Dune.

Good deal! Glad it worked for you.
Blasst's Avatar Blasst 06:01 PM 03-30-2014
lucasberg's Avatar lucasberg 06:48 PM 03-30-2014
Has anyone else noticed how slow the AF is? I'm just wondering if it is just mine. Today at the park videoing my kids, and birds I found that sometimes it would take 5 seconds to focus. I noticed that if you start zoomed in at all it's really bad so I started zooming out after every shot. It is concerning me a lot and I am contemplating returning in it. I love everything else though.
spyker1212's Avatar spyker1212 06:55 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucasberg View Post

Has anyone else noticed how slow the AF is? I'm just wondering if it is just mine. Today at the park videoing my kids, and birds I found that sometimes it would take 5 seconds to focus. I noticed that if you start zoomed in at all it's really bad so I started zooming out after every shot. It is concerning me a lot and I am contemplating returning in it. I love everything else though.
]

I don't have the ax100 yet... but thinking of getting one.

to speed up the autofocus.. on my sony cx760 I pull the viewfinder to switch the camcorder to standby. so everytime i start taking video the
focus is always ready and won't have to take 5 seconds.
pstrauss's Avatar pstrauss 07:04 PM 03-30-2014
Here's a bit more handheld footage I shot at the park today. I'm still finding that outputting to 60mbps H.264 CBR is more than sufficient for YouTube uploads, and much more manageable than AppleProRes 422.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2U4oaO91yw
Eugene157's Avatar Eugene157 07:12 PM 03-30-2014
Yes focus is very slow, I was griping about that right after I got the camera.
markr041's Avatar markr041 07:22 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucasberg View Post

Has anyone else noticed how slow the AF is? I'm just wondering if it is just mine. Today at the park videoing my kids, and birds I found that sometimes it would take 5 seconds to focus. I noticed that if you start zoomed in at all it's really bad so I started zooming out after every shot. It is concerning me a lot and I am contemplating returning in it. I love everything else though.

Try making use of the touch screen - put you finger where you want the camera to focus, and invoke tracking mode. In busy scenes you need to tell the camera where YOU want it t focus.
jogiba's Avatar jogiba 07:24 PM 03-30-2014
Was Emmanuel Pampuri's AX100 4K video posted here or did I miss it. He is the one who shot the Paris and Hong Kong night videos with the GH4.
http://www.pampuri.net/?lang=en




markr041's Avatar markr041 07:27 PM 03-30-2014
Yes it was already posted. We are beyond Youtube cat videos now. Many of us have the camera, and there is nothing in that video that is new. Really.
markr041's Avatar markr041 07:35 PM 03-30-2014
Steady Shot Standard versus Steady Shot Active Mode 4K Test Video

Is Active mode essential for full telephoto handheld? Does Active Mode degrade the image? Here are handheld comparisons at full telephoto, outdoors and indoors. The first shot in each scene is Standard Mode followed by Active Mode.


https://vimeo.com/90494579


UHD original, not re-compressed, is downloadable.

Youtube version:

William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 07:37 PM 03-30-2014
so between the two, standard is better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Steady Shot Standard versus Steady Shot Active Mode 4K Test Video

Is Active mode essential for full telephoto handheld? Does Active Mode degrade the image? Here are handheld comparisons at full telephoto, outdoors and indoors. The first shot in each scene is Standard Mode followed by Active Mode.


https://vimeo.com/90494579


UHD original, not re-compressed, is downloadable.

pstrauss's Avatar pstrauss 07:37 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Ken,

1. I watch the original footage by connecting the AX100 to the XBR65X900A. I also have a Mac Mini connected directly to the Sony 4K TV by HDMI but the video drivers only goes to 1080p, so no 4K there. My Macbook Pro does have 4K 2160p outputs to the Sony 4K TV but at a lower than 30p cycle, so it is not useable for Final Cut Pro X editing work.

The video picture to the Sony 4K TV is better when connected with the AX100 than with my Macbook Pro. I hope this is a driver issue, to be fixed by Apple or Sony later as more people uses 4K 2160p.

2. This has been a big issue.

The FDR-AX100 uses is stored as MPEG-4 with a codec of H.264. This is ideal for Youtube 4K.
A 19 seconds worth of 4K 2160/30p video is about 143MB.

But we need to edit for length and add text. Once FCP-X starts to transcode, any of the Apple ProRes 422 formats increase the size to enormous amounts.

That 19 seconds become 1.2 GB with Apple ProRes 422.

I start filming Grease in early April for art schools. I may have to rethink about using 4K or not.
I certainly do not have the processing power for anything for than 5 minutes of 4K footage at the moment.
Even storage will be a concern.

Billy: Are you finding that your ProRes 422 renditions look better when uploaded than H.264? Not the originals from the camera, that is. On the desktop they play more smoothly on my Mac, but I can't stand the massive upload sizes for the ProRes files.
markr041's Avatar markr041 07:39 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

so between the two, standard is better?

Are you kidding?
William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 07:42 PM 03-30-2014
apparently not.

check these 3 out:

1. Apple 422 LT
http://youtu.be/o-iq1ZPrE48

2. H264
http://youtu.be/5z_-txLOOok

3. Apple 422
http://youtu.be/gZv9vS0wXwo

on youtube with my 27" thunderbolt display, they did not look all that different.
i have no way to compare on my 65" Sony 4K TV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrauss View Post

Billy: Are you finding that your ProRes 422 renditions look better when uploaded than H.264? Not the originals from the camera, that is. On the desktop they play more smoothly on my Mac, but I can't stand the massive upload sizes for the ProRes files.

William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 07:46 PM 03-30-2014
i read your order wrong.
active was clearly better unless you got better with your hold at the second take.

i wished i knew this in DC.
i found the standard to be so so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Are you kidding?

markr041's Avatar markr041 07:55 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

i read your order wrong.
active was clearly better unless you got better with your hold at the second take.

i wished i knew this in DC.
i found the standard to be so so.

Thanks. No, Active is clearly better. Indeed, in the Sony manual it indicates that Steady Shot Standard is only for wide-angle shots. I do not see any degrading of the shot using Active mode, at least viewing in 1080 (and for science, when I actually shot these clips I randomly ordered which mode I shot first; they are only arranged in the editor with Standard first).
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 09:08 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucasberg View Post

Has anyone else noticed how slow the AF is? I'm just wondering if it is just mine. Today at the park videoing my kids, and birds I found that sometimes it would take 5 seconds to focus. I noticed that if you start zoomed in at all it's really bad so I started zooming out after every shot. It is concerning me a lot and I am contemplating returning in it. I love everything else though.

Many cameras behave like that if you leave the shot fully zoomed and then start another clip later. I have always started a shot at wide. Even if I want the shot to be a tight shot, I start wide, zoom in and then hit record.

Here's another thing about the issue of leaving your last shot fully zoomed. If you start another shot later when it had been previously zoomed and left that way, there's a good chance your AWB (if that's what you're using) will be inaccurate. That's because the camera may 'see' one predominant color when you turn it on, leaving a potentially inaccurate WB for the scene you want.
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 09:22 PM 03-30-2014
Mark, I tried that experiment a couple of days ago, but my test needs to be done a bit more carefully.

When you turn on Active, it zooms the sensor a bit relative to Standard. In my test I could see a slight hit in resolution on the more zoomed (Active) mode. I didn't realize how much more zoomed the Active image was until later, when I viewed it. I think to make these tests more accurate, we need to keep the framing as close as possible. So this will mean going a bit wider in the Active mode to compensate for the automatic cropping in Active relative to Standard..

Not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm going to try this again over the next couple of days...assuming it stops raining.
Eugene157's Avatar Eugene157 09:33 PM 03-30-2014
I really think a resolution test pattern needs to be used with the camera on a tripod. then try the two modes and see if the resolution wedge changes.
Regular video is a waste of time.

Gene
William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 09:54 PM 03-30-2014
i am looking forwards to mounting with plates and a solid fluid head with no stabilization.
that way, maybe we can see if some of the rolling effects are due to it.

without that, i think the AX100 is ideal for most applications.
heck, even the bokeh is almost as good as DSLR-full frames.
William Chiu's Avatar William Chiu 09:57 PM 03-30-2014
btw, have you tried using the manual zoom ring?
i found it allows for another point of contact and made for more steady zoom shots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Many cameras behave like that if you leave the shot fully zoomed and then start another clip later. I have always started a shot at wide. Even if I want the shot to be a tight shot, I start wide, zoom in and then hit record.

Here's another thing about the issue of leaving your last shot fully zoomed. If you start another shot later when it had been previously zoomed and left that way, there's a good chance your AWB (if that's what you're using) will be inaccurate. That's because the camera may 'see' one predominant color when you turn it on, leaving a potentially inaccurate WB for the scene you want.

Sgt_Strider's Avatar Sgt_Strider 06:04 AM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It is a VBR. We have seen spikes to 70Mbps and above with heavily detailed scenes.

I'm sure there isn't as much latitude to correct as you would have with RAW, but it's absolutely fine for some light to medium grading as you would with similar non-RAW cameras.

I do believe there is a grid, but I'd have to double check to be certain.

Of course it would be unrealistic to expect the same kind of latitude that RAW provides. However, how does a 60-70Mbps clip from AX100 grade compared to a ProRes 422 HQ clip?
Sgt_Strider's Avatar Sgt_Strider 06:06 AM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Ken's belief is correct as there is a grid overlay.wink.gif

Thanks Blasst!

Do you know if there is also a 1:1 aspect ratio / square overlay? If not, is there a way to create a custom aspect ratio grid?
chenderson2's Avatar chenderson2 07:30 AM 03-31-2014
http://youtu.be/2l0_rA4Hz80
Here is a link to some footage I took at the Tomball German Festival and edited with Final Cut Pro X on my MacBook Pro. The only complaint I had was the way at 30p very much action causes blur and stutter.
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