Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 11:48 AM
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Mark, just great! In a sense, it's almost like shooting RAW from a frame grab standpoint, except these are already graded!

It's a great idea and makes the concept of hitting the 'photo' button, almost moot.
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post #1172 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 12:12 PM
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I read here or in another forum that Active OIS zooms in 56% at longer optical zoom ranges (I think that was the percent mentioned - that seems awful high so I may be remembering wrong). Does this cause loss of resolution, like when you crop in post, or do you still get the full 4K resolution in the recorded file, which would allow up to 75% cropping in post and still have full 1080 resolution for rendering to regular HD?
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post #1173 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 12:38 PM
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Mark, what's your method for grabbing these still frames?
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post #1174 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 12:41 PM
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Dale, I don't think anyone has done enough testing to know. I see a slight loss when viewing on an 64" plasma, but it's not huge. I think your % is correct as that's how it appears when you switch from Standard to Active. But remember the increase is variable. It starts out at something like 5% and gradually increases as you move in tighter on the zoom.
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post #1175 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Dale, I don't think anyone has done enough testing to know. I see a slight loss when viewing on an 64" plasma, but it's not huge. I think your % is correct as that's how it appears when you switch from Standard to Active. But remember the increase is variable. It starts out at something like 5% and gradually increases as you move in tighter on the zoom.

Thanks, Ken.
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post #1176 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dalemccl View Post

I read here or in another forum that Active OIS zooms in 56% at longer optical zoom ranges (I think that was the percent mentioned - that seems awful high so I may be remembering wrong). Does this cause loss of resolution, like when you crop in post, or do you still get the full 4K resolution in the recorded file, which would allow up to 75% cropping in post and still have full 1080 resolution for rendering to regular HD?

Dale,

I did the test that came up with those numbers.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510309/sony-4k-handycam-fdr-ax100-thread/1050#post_24553558

Since I used a resolution chart as part of the test, I was able to see that, in terms of real resolution of the subject, there was no gain nor loss. For example, if you were zoomed in on a bird, the same amount of feather detail would be resolved whether active or standard.

You will however get a smaller FOV with active (by 56% at 4k) so that detail will be magnified and theoretically could look more fuzzy when viewed at 4k. In reality, when you're zoomed, you are a little less concerned with detail generally than when you are wide just by the nature of things and I doubt you would be able to tell by looking at the 4k image. If you look at my tele active 4k screen capture, it still looks pretty sharp even at 100%, just not quite as sharp as the Standard.

I really like Sony's implementation of variable crop based on focal length. It basically does a mild digital zoom as you go through the range and gives much better stabilization.

And if you are viewing the 4k image at 1080p, you will actually be able to see MORE detail on that theoretical bird if you are using active stab due to the higher magnification factor.

I just wished Sony did a better job on the stabilization itself...it's outclassed by most other systems I've used, including something like the OIS on the 14-140 5.6 on a m43 camera.
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post #1177 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 02:53 PM
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Mark,

Out of curiosity, I took your last shot and decided to see what information is in the shadows, which is usually a good indicator of encoder quality. Raising the shadows usually results in a block mess for poor encoders.

I was astounded at the amount of detail I was able to extract from the shadows in Photoshop using the shadows/highlights slider. I applied a little Noise Reduction to the result and it's quite usable for web posting and so forth:




Here's your original for comparison:
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post #1178 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 03:03 PM
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Dale,

I did the test that came up with those numbers.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510309/sony-4k-handycam-fdr-ax100-thread/1050#post_24553558

Since I used a resolution chart as part of the test, I was able to see that, in terms of real resolution of the subject, there was no gain nor loss. For example, if you were zoomed in on a bird, the same amount of feather detail would be resolved whether active or standard.

You will however get a smaller FOV with active (by 56% at 4k) so that detail will be magnified and theoretically could look more fuzzy when viewed at 4k.

Rick, as I recall, didn't you only see about a 5% crop at full wide when using Active? If so, that should make any loss of resolution so minimal you'd never see it even at 4K. As you move further in to the zoom ratio, that's where you may begin to see a bit of a hit. But as you say, the tradeoff may be worthwhile.
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post #1179 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ricksastro View Post

Dale,

I did the test that came up with those numbers.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510309/sony-4k-handycam-fdr-ax100-thread/1050#post_24553558

Since I used a resolution chart as part of the test, I was able to see that, in terms of real resolution of the subject, there was no gain nor loss. For example, if you were zoomed in on a bird, the same amount of feather detail would be resolved whether active or standard.

You will however get a smaller FOV with active (by 56% at 4k) so that detail will be magnified and theoretically could look more fuzzy when viewed at 4k. In reality, when you're zoomed, you are a little less concerned with detail generally than when you are wide just by the nature of things and I doubt you would be able to tell by looking at the 4k image. If you look at my tele active 4k screen capture, it still looks pretty sharp even at 100%, just not quite as sharp as the Standard.

I really like Sony's implementation of variable crop based on focal length. It basically does a mild digital zoom as you go through the range and gives much better stabilization.

And if you are viewing the 4k image at 1080p, you will actually be able to see MORE detail on that theoretical bird if you are using active stab due to the higher magnification factor.

I just wished Sony did a better job on the stabilization itself...it's outclassed by most other systems I've used, including something like the OIS on the 14-140 5.6 on a m43 camera.

Rick, thanks for the details about the Active stabilization zoom.
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post #1180 of 2231 Old 04-07-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
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Rick, as I recall, didn't you only see about a 5% crop at full wide when using Active? If so, that should make any loss of resolution so minimal you'd never see it even at 4K. As you move further in to the zoom ratio, that's where you may begin to see a bit of a hit. But as you say, the tradeoff may be worthwhile.

Exactly...like I said in a follow-on post, it turns a true 12x 4K camera into a 18x 3k-4k camera. Actually, a very nice feature even without the advantage of better stabilization
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post #1181 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 01:43 AM
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Exactly...like I said in a follow-on post, it turns a true 12x 4K camera into a 18x 3k-4k camera. Actually, a very nice feature even without the advantage of better stabilization

In the specs it is referred to as "clear image zoom." At CES I tested this feature by pointing the demo AX100 at a menu sign at a deli stand about thirty feet away from the Sony exhibit
area. I could read the small letters clearly at 18x zoom. This is one of the reasons that convinced me to acquire the AX100. The Sony rep doing the demo set it up for clear image zoom in lieu of digital zoom. I never figured out how to do this on my unit from reading the manual. You figured it out for the group. Thanks.

Sal
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post #1182 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 09:45 AM
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So great news for any owner of an AX100 that's considering a UHD TV. I just got back from BB to see how the just released, 2014 Samsung UHD TV would handle a 4K edited file.

For those new to this, up to this point it's either been exceedingly difficult or, in most cases, impossible to play back edited 4K files. Sure you could hook up a computer and play it back that way, but let's face it, that's an awkward arrangement. The 2013 UHD TVs were simply not geared to recognize the 4K codecs via their USB inputs. That's now changed in the 2014 models.

We plugged my USB drive into the Samsung (65" curved screen model) and upon switching inputs, it immediately recognized the 4K edit with a thumbnail. The 4K video playback was absolutely stunning. The BB sales guy called a bunch of people over to see it. They all had their mouths open. They couldn't believe this little camera had produced this. One commented it looked as good as the 4K demo loop that Samsung gives them.

Of course color was improperly set as the set was defaulting to some kind of vivid mode which they also use for their 4K demo. But the detail and contrast were just mesmerizing.

Now this ability will probably carry over to most, if not all, of the 2014 UHD TVs. That's great news for 4K camera owners. smile.gif
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post #1183 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So great news for any owner of an AX100 that's considering a UHD TV. I just got back from BB to see how the just released, 2014 Samsung UHD TV would handle a 4K edited file.

For those new to this, up to this point it's either been exceedingly difficult or, in most cases, impossible to play back edited 4K files. Sure you could hook up a computer and play it back that way, but let's face it, that's an awkward arrangement. The 2013 UHD TVs were simply not geared to recognize the 4K codecs via their USB inputs. That's now changed in the 2014 models.

We plugged my USB drive into the Samsung (65" curved screen model) and upon switching inputs, it immediately recognized the 4K edit with a thumbnail. The 4K video playback was absolutely stunning. The BB sales guy called a bunch of people over to see it. They all had their mouths open. They couldn't believe this little camera had produced this. One commented it looked as good as the 4K demo loop that Samsung gives them.

Of course color was improperly set as the set was defaulting to some kind of vivid mode which they also use for their 4K demo. But the detail and contrast were just mesmerizing.

Now this ability will probably carry over to most, if not all, of the 2014 UHD TVs. That's great news for 4K camera owners. smile.gif
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post #1184 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So great news for any owner of an AX100 that's considering a UHD TV. I just got back from BB to see how the just released, 2014 Samsung UHD TV would handle a 4K edited file.

For those new to this, up to this point it's either been exceedingly difficult or, in most cases, impossible to play back edited 4K files. Sure you could hook up a computer and play it back that way, but let's face it, that's an awkward arrangement. The 2013 UHD TVs were simply not geared to recognize the 4K codecs via their USB inputs. That's now changed in the 2014 models.

We plugged my USB drive into the Samsung (65" curved screen model) and upon switching inputs, it immediately recognized the 4K edit with a thumbnail. The 4K video playback was absolutely stunning. The BB sales guy called a bunch of people over to see it. They all had their mouths open. They couldn't believe this little camera had produced this. One commented it looked as good as the 4K demo loop that Samsung gives them.

Of course color was improperly set as the set was defaulting to some kind of vivid mode which they also use for their 4K demo. But the detail and contrast were just mesmerizing.

Now this ability will probably carry over to most, if not all, of the 2014 UHD TVs. That's great news for 4K camera owners. smile.gif

Good! Yes, that is what Samsung had promised in the new models. Did they give you a free Samsung t-shirt?
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post #1185 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 11:59 AM
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They should have, Mark!!! biggrin.gif
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And how is this accomplished on the Samsung? What format does the thumb drive have to be and in what format (codec, etc.) must the video be in? Is there an app on the Samsung that recognizes and plays 4K files? I tried, and there is no way to get the Sony to recognize and support any type for 4K video file on the USB.

Another question please. How are you doing the frame grabs from your 4K video? Not just screen shots, I assume, because you say they are 8meg files. By the way, they look great.
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post #1187 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 01:40 PM
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And how is this accomplished on the Samsung? What format does the thumb drive have to be and in what format (codec, etc.) must the video be in? Is there an app on the Samsung that recognizes and plays 4K files? I tried, and there is no way to get the Sony to recognize and support any type for 4K video file on the USB.

Another question please. How are you doing the frame grabs from your 4K video? Not just screen shots, I assume, because you say they are 8meg files. By the way, they look great.

I can answer the question on the frame grabs - they are indeed pictures from (not of!) the video frames. The software I use (TMPGEnc Smart Renderer 4) has the capability: you choose the frame you want and right click and make a jpeg. I am sure other editors have this capability.

The pictures are 8 megapixels, not 8 megabytes (one refers to the resolution, the other to size). The size is about 4.5 megabytes. So far I have been impressed by the stills one gets this way.
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post #1188 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 01:46 PM
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Sorry to momentarily change the subject, but I wonder what the catch is with this $1599.00 offer for the AX100? http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/3833/6u0m.jpg http://www.ajrichie.com/Sony-FDR-AX100-4K-Ultra-HD-Camcorder-Black/p-7958?refid=Priceme
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post #1189 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 01:53 PM
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looks like a NYC shop. Why not pay them a visit and check out the box.
otherwise, never heard this place.
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Sorry to momentarily change the subject, but I wonder what the catch is with this $1599.00 offer for the AX100? http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/3833/6u0m.jpg http://www.ajrichie.com/Sony-FDR-AX100-4K-Ultra-HD-Camcorder-Black/p-7958?refid=Priceme
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Sorry to momentarily change the subject, but I wonder what the catch is with this $1599.00 offer for the AX100? http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/3833/6u0m.jpg http://www.ajrichie.com/Sony-FDR-AX100-4K-Ultra-HD-Camcorder-Black/p-7958?refid=Priceme

Scam...was ajrichies, now that web site is shut down and it's ajrichie (note the icon for the website is the same as the one on the site below.

http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.ajrichies.com
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post #1191 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 03:38 PM
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And how is this accomplished on the Samsung? What format does the thumb drive have to be and in what format (codec, etc.) must the video be in? Is there an app on the Samsung that recognizes and plays 4K files? I tried, and there is no way to get the Sony to recognize and support any type for 4K video file on the USB.

Another question please. How are you doing the frame grabs from your 4K video? Not just screen shots, I assume, because you say they are 8meg files. By the way, they look great.

The 2013 Sonys won't support 4K via USB, none of the other 2013 UHD TVs will either. This ability is new in 2014 along with the ability (for most) to stream 4K from websites like Netflix.

As for today's experiment with the 2014 Samsung, there's no special app. You put the USB drive in to a USB slot, switch to that input and the screen shows you 3 options: Video, Pictures or Music. Once you select video, the screen opens up to show a large thumbnail of the video.

File format on my drive was simply 'mp4'. I had formatted the drive prior to loading the project as 'Fat32'. I'm not sure what would have happened had I formatted it ExFat, but it seemed like my chances of compatibility were better with Fat32.

I'm almost sure the 2014 Sonys will have this same capability. In fact we took it over to the 65" FALD, 2013 Sony and it would not play it. No surprises.
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I attempted putting an SD card in a USB reader and putting that in my Sony 4K usb slot. It shows the files, but will not do anything with them - just says they are not compatible. In fact I got one to play, but only the sound, no picture. It would also not play 720 resolution in the m4v format either. I hope there is some solution offered to us other than getting rid of our 2013 models and getting 2014s.
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Another question please. How are you doing the frame grabs from your 4K video? Not just screen shots, I assume, because you say they are 8meg files. By the way, they look great.

I use Media Player Classic (MPC-HC), included with the K-lite codec package online. You just hit pause and then File-> Save image and it saves the full 4k frame.
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post #1194 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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also for VLC and Quicktime when running on MAC
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I use Media Player Classic (MPC-HC), included with the K-lite codec package online. You just hit pause and then File-> Save image and it saves the full 4k frame.
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post #1195 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 07:35 PM
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I attempted putting an SD card in a USB reader and putting that in my Sony 4K usb slot. It shows the files, but will not do anything with them - just says they are not compatible. In fact I got one to play, but only the sound, no picture. It would also not play 720 resolution in the m4v format either. I hope there is some solution offered to us other than getting rid of our 2013 models and getting 2014s.

Chenderson, there is simply no way to get these 2013 UHD displays to play 4K via the USB. There just isn't. This issue isn't just related to Sonys, it's all the UHD manufacturer's products in 2013. After we watched my edited 4K video on the 2014 Samsung, we did try it on the 65" UHD Sony that was on display. It did show the file, but it wouldn't play it. There was a sliver of a picture at the very top, but it was virtually unrecognizable. Wish there were better news. Of course, as you know, you can play 4K directly from the camera to your Sony, but not edited files.

Could there be some kind of a firmware update for this? Who knows. I know Sony did actually make in-home visits to swap out HDMI hardware on the 2013 84" UHD display to make them HDMI 2.0 capable. So could something similar be done with the USB inputs via firmware or hardware upgrades? I guess it's possible. I think it's more probable for the Samsungs that have the upgradeable media connect boxes that are updated each year.

Have you tried calling Sony to see if there's anything in the works? Not that you can truly rely on the answers you get from the tech support folks, but it might give you some idea.
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post #1196 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 08:41 PM
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just got the Sony GP-VPT1 hand grip / table tripod with firing buttons and zoom.






Took this demo clip with the grip and no steady shot

http://youtu.be/IbEB9bL9t_k
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post #1197 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 09:28 PM
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Billy, Can you control the zoom speed with the rocker switch?

The Mod Squad: New vs. Classic TV Series Opening https://vimeo.com/63119329
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yes, it's pressure sensitive.
Watch the last portion of the clip, that's the fastest speed.


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Billy, Can you control the zoom speed with the rocker switch?
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post #1199 of 2231 Old 04-08-2014, 11:05 PM
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AX100 shots from Stow Lake in Golden Gate Park (San Francisco).   All pans and zooms were done in the video editor (Sony Movie Studio).

 

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post #1200 of 2231 Old 04-09-2014, 01:13 AM
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Great resolution on that film,i like the greens from the AX100 so those two would be enough to make me go for one if i do not have to get a new PC as my current one is as good as dead,my only dislike is skin tones and scenes like from 1m3s to 1m 26s that have too blue a look,but what consumer cam is perfect.
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