Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 65 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1921 of 3288 Old 06-17-2014, 09:49 AM
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Hard drives etc.

Someone on a different forum had a question, here are my 2 cents worth:

Any external USB2 hard drive bought today will handle video even at 4K just fine. USB3 allows faster backups and file transfer, get it if you can.

I use 64GB memory cards on a 4K camcorder with a measured transfer rate as low as 20MB per sec w/o any problems.In fact the Sony cards recommended for their 4K camcorder hardly go any higher.

Any hard drive will do much better than that. And for regular HD even 10MB average is enough. External USB2 hard drives average about 70MB, my internal ones are around 120MB. No reason to waste your money on a SSHD.

Download the free HDTUNE and you can measure all that yourself/

I have 3 internal HD in my computer plus 4 external in a box via USB3. All are partitioned. Mostly the operating system resides on C. Other program stuff only is on D and E. Try to keep the C drive as pristine as possible!!. NNO pictures, video files, emails etc!!

CDE are one drive. All drives are plug in so I can make and use clones and swap drives in no time. Backing up is a major religion here, I became a faithful convert over 10 years ago after falling on my face big time.

In all my PC editing, nearly 18 years, I have NEVER EVER been limited by HD transfer rates.

There must be a sinister conspiracy between HD manufactures and writers of codecs, sort of tit for tat, Hd increases transfer rate, Codes increase bit rate. Just kidding. but it works out that way.

Eugene

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post #1922 of 3288 Old 06-17-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by leamas View Post
One more point of view regarding HD -> 4K transition / differences in visual quality. I think for the low light scenes, where detail is not as big as in regular light, the HD / 4K differences are quite minimal, so a "regular" 4K camera can produce a good HD low light scene. For sure the very expensive cameras can do better here and the differences may be bigger. But I am really curious how a "true" 4K low light scene can look like, because the detail cannot be too big, also for our eyes in reality.

Here is a "true" 4K really low-light video, shot by both the GH4 and the AX100. The details are stunning; no way an alleged 1080 camera can do this. And you can watch in 1080, of course, and see it.


https://vimeo.com/97288660
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post #1923 of 3288 Old 06-17-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Thank you for the comments. Yes, I am very unhappy with the "rocking." That is caused by my having to hand hold the camera, instead of using a tripod. I just can't deal with a tripod when traveling. I don't know if the AX100 is more difficult to hold steady, or that I'm just getting more unstable in my ability to hold it, but the footage shot with this camera seems to all have that motion.
I, too, would like to compliment you on your Germany 4K videos. I watched them on my Asus 32 4K monitor at 60 Hz refresh rate, and I found them quite informative and enjoyable. Nicely done!

I believe that you are using Final Cut Pro X as your NLE. If so, you might want to take a good look at the various image stabilization options offered by FCP X (i.e. smoothing, inertial stabilization, tripod mode, etc.). For the kind of fairly gentle rocking motion that you have in your video clips, I believe that FCP X's image stabilization would go a long way to removing that entirely without noticeable artifacts. I find that relatively low frequency movements are removed extremely well in FCP X without artifacts. High frequency movements of the camera (such as when it is jarred on a tripod) are not removed well at all, and applying image stabilization to such clips produces a very unpleasant warping artifact.

Tom
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post #1924 of 3288 Old 06-17-2014, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Here is a "true" 4K really low-light video, shot by both the GH4 and the AX100. The details are stunning; no way an alleged 1080 camera can do this. And you can watch in 1080, of course, and see it.


https://vimeo.com/97288660
Mark, my comments were: 1 in low light the 4K clips "become" HD because of the less detail (so exactly what you said) and 2 I would really like to see a 4K clip done with a professional camera (like F65) to see if there you can see the differences on a 4K monitor. The clip above is beautiful but not what I defined as "true".
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post #1925 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 02:52 AM
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FDR-AX100 Firmware Update

From Sony's support pages,

http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=FDRAX100&template_id=1&region_id=1&tab =download#/downloadTab
File Description UPDATE System Software Update Release Date 6/18/2014 Version 2.00 File Size 68.06 MB Download This utility updates the system firmware and provides the following benefits:
  • Adds Direct Copy for XAVC S format support
  • Adds the following auto focus performance improvements:
    • Focusing accuracy for main subject
    • Focus tracking performance on a person
  • Adds the 1/50 shutter speed
  • Improves zoom speed during movie recording
Somehow the link gets you to "How to Trouble shoot" tab; Please select "Drivers & Software" tab next to it.
Ken Ross, hatchback and Blasst like this.

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post #1926 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 05:23 AM
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Maybe the next firmware will have 60p and higher bitrate then AX100 is the master
Good that they added 1/50 shutter speed, here in Europe it's really a problem with ambient lighting.
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post #1927 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 05:41 AM
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Maybe the next firmware will have 60p and higher bitrate then AX100 is the master
Good that they added 1/50 shutter speed, here in Europe it's really a problem with ambient lighting.
Hi leamas, although 60p looks highly unlikely, I agree that the addition of 1/50 SS would be helpful in certain areas of the globe. I just updated my AX100 with this latest firmware, and do notice a faster zoom speed.
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post #1928 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 05:48 AM
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Hi leamas, although 60p looks highly unlikely, I agree that the addition of 1/50 SS would be helpful in certain areas of the globe. I just updated my AX100 with this latest firmware, and do notice a faster zoom speed.
I know, I think enabling (if physically possible) 60p will kill their business a bit. Increasing the bitrate - I am not so sure they cannot do this - would be great. What can they also do is increasing the quality of HD recorded clips, they are not as detailed as the 4K ones downscaled to HD. Did you also check this on the latest firmware?
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post #1929 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by leamas View Post
Mark, my comments were: 1 in low light the 4K clips "become" HD because of the less detail (so exactly what you said) and 2 I would really like to see a 4K clip done with a professional camera (like F65) to see if there you can see the differences on a 4K monitor. The clip above is beautiful but not what I defined as "true".
I think the point is that when shooting in 4K in low light, you do lose resolution. However, that loss still results in a video with higher resolution than with an HD-only camera and comparable low light qualities.
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post #1930 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 07:59 AM
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Am I the only one that can't find the camera's version #? I see no 'General Settings' category anywhere in the menu.

Edit: Went through the update and the current firmware was displayed.

Last edited by Ken Ross; 06-18-2014 at 09:00 AM.
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post #1931 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by leamas View Post
Mark, my comments were: 1 in low light the 4K clips "become" HD because of the less detail (so exactly what you said) and 2 I would really like to see a 4K clip done with a professional camera (like F65) to see if there you can see the differences on a 4K monitor. The clip above is beautiful but not what I defined as "true".

I am sorry. I still do not understand what you are saying, or what you mean by "true": First I did not say that 4K clips become less detailed in the dark; I said that even viewed at HD the 4K-original clips look better than HD-original clips in the dark or not. That does not mean viewed at 4K you will not see a difference compared with viewing at 1080 in this video. You can use this video to test that.


The video is 4K; it can be downloaded and watched as 4K if you have a 4K viewing device. You then can compare what you see viewing at 4K to viewing at 1080 on another device. Only then can you test your speculation that 4K shot in the dark adds no more resolution than HD (if that is what you think). It is really, really true 4K, really.


Are you defining "true" 4K as only 4K shot by a "professional" camera?
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post #1932 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 09:02 AM
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Eye-candy 4K video

Time out: Eye-candy "true" 4K AX100 video (Marsh Botanical Gardens):

https://vimeo.com/98498190
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post #1933 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 09:16 AM
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Nice shots Mark. What I've found and your shots point out, is that I really don't think there's a huge advantage in DOF flexibility in a DSLR vs what can be achieved with the AX100.

For my purposes the shallow DOF that can be achieved with the Sony is absolutely fine. As you continue to seek a shallower DOF, focusing becomes much more critical and tenuous.
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post #1934 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Time out: Eye-candy "true" 4K AX100 video (Marsh Botanical Gardens):

https://vimeo.com/98498190
Looks nice, but I wonder why you are avoiding using a tripod, considering that most of the shots are static. You don't need an expensive tripod for a static shot, a cheap one for $30 will do.
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post #1935 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 09:49 AM
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Chenderson, I followed your example and posted a 30 min version of our recent vacation trip to YouTube. I was born in Germany so most of those venues in your video look familiar.

I have the same problem holding the camera steady even though I always use both hands. I took a tripod along and was able to use it fairly often, especially for tele shots.

YouTube noticed the shakiness and offered to fix it but I declined. Did you have that done?.

There are some night shots in Shanghai and it is clear that the resolution is reduced but it should still qualify as full HD. Apparently some Chinese have not seen tall Caucasians so
my wife was constantly being mobbed.
Towards the end is a ride in the MAGLEV, a must see, especially two trains passing with a combined speed of 600 KM per hr.




Unfortunately the video suffers severely when motion is involved, witness the trip to the Great Wall in the beginning.

While in China the air quality was very bad, no sun no shadows visibility shortened by the smog.

And finally, how did you post the thumbnail to start the video? (well I found out)


I had to take the video off, my wife says " that camera makes me look old". Making a shorter version with more camera oriented clips.



Eugene

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post #1936 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 09:56 AM
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Looks nice, but I wonder why you are avoiding using a tripod, considering that most of the shots are static. You don't need an expensive tripod for a static shot, a cheap one for $30 will do.

You are correct, for most of this a tripod would be useful. But I am an opportunistic shooter. I don't carry around tripods, and can only shoot when I have the opportunity (which are usually short time periods). And the butterflies cannot wait for you to set up a shot . A cheap, adjustable tripod (usually means light and unsteady) will usually not do - I tied one, and it was shaky (traffic made it tremble, wind made it tremble, pressing start/top made it shake (I know that can be dealt with)).


Most of the videos I shoot now are for learning what the camera can do, so if there is real opportunity (travel) I know what to expect, and for that tripods/sliders are out of the question.


We are learning that shooting 4K with a big sensor makes steadiness more of an issue than shooting with small sensors at pseudo HD. The Panasonic ZS40, even at 500mm, was rock steady handheld.
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post #1937 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 10:05 AM
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We are learning that shooting 4K with a big sensor makes steadiness more of an issue than shooting with small sensors at pseudo HD. The Panasonic ZS40, even at 500mm, was rock steady handheld.
Same held true a decade ago for HD: higher resolution and barely adequate bitrate for something like HDV means that you want as little movement in a frame as possible, trying to avoid full-frame movement, which is exactly what you get shooting handheld.

So, it is the same old news
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post #1938 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 10:29 AM
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I used the tripod as much as was practical, but at times you were just part of a human mass, moving along.I find that, as long as there is something of interest in the video and that is moving as well, then the camera shake seems less noticeable.

Eugene
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post #1939 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 11:23 AM
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I've written the wiggles before. I'm probably older than the rest of you so I wiggle more. That makes me an expert. But, stick it in the "broken record" file if you want.

Screw a swivel clamp to a 22" camcorder handle. Screw the clamp to your camera. Pinch the end of the short stick in your armpit. If you don't want to make one, buy a the cheapest monopod you can find with a small ballhead.

Collapsed to a foot or so, it makes a comfortable convenient carry handle, especially if you get one with a foam grip. If you travel and are worried about muggers, you can use it to club them before you run.

When used like I'm promoting to aid the OIS, all the jiggle goes away. Panning, tilting and other motion is still easy, but the micro movements disappear.

Every time I leave my stick behind, I wince looking at my footage. Every time I use it, I smile at the footage.

Do I need to do a demonstration documentary? Buy a short stick for you $2K 4K!

(No Joe, you don't need a fluid foot or fluid head. KISS is better!)
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post #1940 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 11:50 AM
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I've written the wiggles before. I'm probably older than the rest of you so I wiggle more. That makes me an expert. But, stick it in the "broken record" file if you want.

Screw a swivel clamp to a 22" camcorder handle. Screw the clamp to your camera. Pinch the end of the short stick in your armpit. If you don't want to make one, buy a the cheapest monopod you can find with a small ballhead.

Collapsed to a foot or so, it makes a comfortable convenient carry handle, especially if you get one with a foam grip. If you travel and are worried about muggers, you can use it to club them before you run.

When used like I'm promoting to aid the OIS, all the jiggle goes away. Panning, tilting and other motion is still easy, but the micro movements disappear.

Every time I leave my stick behind, I wince looking at my footage. Every time I use it, I smile at the footage.

Do I need to do a demonstration documentary? Buy a short stick for you $2K 4K!

(No Joe, you don't need a fluid foot or fluid head. KISS is better!)

Picture of your rig on a camera or camcorder?
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post #1941 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 12:37 PM
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I am sorry. I still do not understand what you are saying, or what you mean by "true": First I did not say that 4K clips become less detailed in the dark; I said that even viewed at HD the 4K-original clips look better than HD-original clips in the dark or not. That does not mean viewed at 4K you will not see a difference compared with viewing at 1080 in this video. You can use this video to test that.


The video is 4K; it can be downloaded and watched as 4K if you have a 4K viewing device. You then can compare what you see viewing at 4K to viewing at 1080 on another device. Only then can you test your speculation that 4K shot in the dark adds no more resolution than HD (if that is what you think). It is really, really true 4K, really.


Are you defining "true" 4K as only 4K shot by a "professional" camera?
Mark, Ken understood what I meant. Shooting in very low light means you do lose resolution. Also your eyes do. And any sensor. Now my question is: playing a very crisp low light video filmed with a professional camcorder, will make a difference seeing on a 4K TV vs a HDTV? This is a bit of philosophy. And that clip on vimeo, I cannot see too much difference when watching it in 1080 resolution or 4K resolution on my 65F9000.
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post #1942 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 12:46 PM
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Mark, Ken understood what I meant. Shooting in very low light means you do lose resolution. Also your eyes do. And any sensor. Now my question is: playing a very crisp low light video filmed with a professional camcorder, will make a difference seeing on a 4K TV vs a HDTV? This is a bit of philosophy. And that clip on vimeo, I cannot see too much difference when watching it in 1080 resolution or 4K resolution on my 65F9000.

But then shooting in the dark at HD, you also get a loss of resolution, so 4K shooting will always give you more resolution than shooting HD, dark or not. And, what makes you think that "pro" 4K cameras give you more resolution than the AX100? They have other advantages, but I have not seen any tests showing any 4K camera achieves more resolution that the AX100. Indeed, the Sony pro AX1 has a smaller sensor than the AX100, and its 4K performance in low light is worse (meaning either more noise or more smearing).

I think saying the AX100 does not produce "true" 4K and pro cameras do is over the top, not to mention incorrect (or at least without any foundation). If you mean true is exactly 3280x2160, then likely nothing is true 4K. And pro HD video cameras do not come close to true HD, by this strict definition. Truly.

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post #1943 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 01:04 PM
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But then shooting in the dark at HD, you also get a loss of resolution, so 4K shooting will always give you more resolution than shooting HD, dark or not. And, what makes you think that "pro" 4K cameras give you more resolution than the AX100? They have other advantages, but I have not seen any tests showing any 4K camera achieves more resolution that the AX100. Indeed, the Sony pro AX1 has a smaller sensor than the AX100, and its 4K performance in low light is worse (meaning either more noise or more smearing).

I think saying the AX100 does not produce "true" 4K and pro cameras do is over the top, not to mention incorrect (or at least without any foundation). If you mean true is exactly 3280x2160, then likely nothing is true 4K. And pro HD video cameras do not come close to true HD, by this strict definition. Truly.
What I said is that in low light the resolution will decrease on any sensor, by a bigger or smaller margin. I didn't say that in big light ax100 is not super crisp. It is. I saw some clips with a bit bigger detail in one store, but that is not too relevant. Ax100 is a great camera. What I was curious, again, is, to what extent a pro camera can make a great low light clip, and if that is noticeable on 4k screens.
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post #1944 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 01:10 PM
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What I said is that in low light the resolution will decrease on any sensor, by a bigger or smaller margin. I didn't say that in big light ax100 is not super crisp. It is. I saw some clips with a bit bigger detail in one store, but that is not too relevant. Ax100 is a great camera. What I was curious, again, is, to what extent a pro camera can make a great low light clip, and if that is noticeable on 4k screens.

I have the same curiosity, but I do not start with the assumption that any "pro" camera will necessarily be better, the "pro" Sony PXW-Z100 (AX1), with its 1/2.3" sensor, is a case in point. Alexa perhaps?
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post #1945 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 01:43 PM
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And that clip on vimeo, I cannot see too much difference when watching it in 1080 resolution or 4K resolution on my 65F9000.
So this has me confused. At first I thought maybe it was because I watched the HD version for a minute or two on Vimeo as opposed to the HD download version. So I downloaded the HD version (I had already downloaded the 4K version) and compared. There is much more detail in the 4K version...and this on my puny 28" 4K monitor. Differences should be even greater on a 65" screen.

The most apparent differences, unsurprisingly, are in the wide shots. Grass, tree limb detail etc. is much more finely rendered in the 4K download.
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post #1946 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 01:45 PM
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I have the same curiosity, but I do not start with the assumption that any "pro" camera will necessarily be better, the "pro" Sony PXW-Z100 (AX1), with its 1/2.3" sensor, is a case in point. Alexa perhaps?
Couldn't agree more. There have been numerous cases where a prosumer/consumer version of a camera did better in certain respects to the pro version.

Granted the pro version will give you more flexibility with adjustments, but that does not guarantee that things like resolution, color or low light will be better.
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post #1947 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 01:51 PM
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So this has me confused. At first I thought maybe it was because I watched the HD version for a minute or two on Vimeo as opposed to the HD download version. So I downloaded the HD version (I had already downloaded the 4K version) and compared. There is much more detail in the 4K version...and this on my puny 28" 4K monitor. Differences should be even greater on a 65" screen.

The most apparent differences, unsurprisingly, are in the wide shots. Grass, tree limb detail etc. is much more finely rendered in the 4K download.
Ken, I am talking about the 4k version watched both in 4k and HD resolution. This is how I generally compare in such cases.
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post #1948 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Picture of your rig on a camera or camcorder?
I forgot to smile. Shot it with the "old" SDT750.

https://vimeo.com/98583397

Watch it soon! It will get deleted before anyone else sees it!
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post #1949 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 02:16 PM
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Back on track: How good is focus tracking?

Here is a video testing the focus tracking performance of the AX100, with the new firmware. No human I know wants to be tracked, so we will have to settle for these pretty tests. I have done this before, and I can say that other cameras have failed the same tests. (e.g., those Sony NEX cameras):


https://vimeo.com/98581404
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post #1950 of 3288 Old 06-18-2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post
I forgot to smile. Shot it with the "old" SDT750.

https://vimeo.com/98583397

Watch it soon! It will get deleted before anyone else sees it!

Excellent demo! Better than a picture. It's a keeper (and that old Panasonic is really good).
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