Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 80 - AVS Forum
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post #2371 of 2816 Old 08-16-2014, 09:03 AM
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I think it's either sharpened (not oversharpened) or cinematic. Some people are happy with one but not the other and vice versa. One thing is certain, though. When edge haloes are baked in the image it's impossible to revert the processed image to the otherwise unsharpened, halo-free image without softening the outlines or creating some different kinds of artifacts.
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post #2372 of 2816 Old 08-16-2014, 09:40 AM
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Sharpened, over-sharpened, cinematic, soft, detailed, whatever anyone prefers to call an image, I prefer the image that most closely approximates what my eyes saw when shooting the scene. For me, when comparing the AX100 to the GH4, the Sony did the better job in achieving that objective.
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post #2373 of 2816 Old 08-16-2014, 11:23 AM
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Sony FDR-AX100 Wins European EISA Award

https://vimeo.com/103313799
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post #2374 of 2816 Old 08-17-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Anyone can give an opinion. You are in a unique situation where you can show us the difference. Why not make a video using your AX100 at 1080 60p (XAVC S please) and your GoPro at 1080 60p and upload it. Then we can see if the GoPro "bows[sic] the AX100 out of the water" (btw, the AX100 is not water proof ).


camcorderinfo.com measured the 1080 resolution of the AX100 at 750 lp/ph horizontal and vertical. The GoPro was measured at 800 and 700 respectively. That is not a difference. Their measured resolution numbers (except for 4K) I have found in the past to correspond pretty well with what videos show.
Can't give you any footage..don't have a tube account..twitter..facebook or whatever..I refuse any so called social media...just spyware..count me out.
However.. if you want to know the abilities of the gopro cam ..just buy one..what are we talking about..3/4 hundred dollies?
Soon.. September a gopro 4 will be on the market...with 4K 30 frps
Same as The Sony cam..but for a fraction of the price.
Think about it.

Also.. look at the footage ..just google gopro..and then you know.
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post #2375 of 2816 Old 08-17-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jan dijkgraaff View Post
Soon.. September a gopro 4 will be on the market...with 4K 30 frps
Same as The Sony cam..but for a fraction of the price.
Think about it.

Also.. look at the footage ..just google gopro..and then you know.

I think mark041 said before... gopro is a gimmick camera.


I have gopro hero2 and canon vixia mini both are cool to hook in cars and tight space where my sony cx760 can't go. but rarely use both now. even the news gopro 4 does not excite me.

I recently purchased the raynox fisheye lens for my sony cx760 to give same effect as gopro

http://www.amazon.com/Raynox-HDP-280...raynox+fisheye




I am waiting for 360 degrees camera that can video 360 and view 360. and hopefully sony 1" sensor camera with BOSS.

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post #2376 of 2816 Old 08-17-2014, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jan dijkgraaff View Post
Can't give you any footage..don't have a tube account..twitter..facebook or whatever..I refuse any so called social media...just spyware..count me out.
However.. if you want to know the abilities of the gopro cam ..just buy one..what are we talking about..3/4 hundred dollies?
Soon.. September a gopro 4 will be on the market...with 4K 30 frps
Same as The Sony cam..but for a fraction of the price.
Think about it.

Also.. look at the footage ..just google gopro..and then you know.

This site is as dangerous for spyware as any of those you have named, so your protective policy needs revision.


I have looked at a lot of GoPro footage, and am not impressed relative to regular camcorders. The Panasonic HX-A500 is an action cam that already does 4K at 30 fps (you should try it - it is only "3/4 hundred dollies"). I have it. Its video is clearly superior to any GoPro footage I have seen. I like what it produces, but it is not superior to Sony AX100 footage. It is also a gimmick cam like the GoPro, in that it has unique uses but many limitations.
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post #2377 of 2816 Old 08-17-2014, 12:46 PM
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I've tested the GoPro Black and Black+ and walked away unimpressed. All of the video modes use line skipping, including the 4k modes, so the measured resolution is very low. You can easily see this by recording a high detail scene, or a scene with people's faces in the background. The video that Mark posted from the HX-A500 is superior to even the best GoPro footage. And as Mark says, the AX100 video is clearly superior to the HX-A500 video, in both resolution and dynamic range.
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post #2378 of 2816 Old 08-17-2014, 10:44 PM
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Whats a decent selling price to ask for this camcorder used. I have 2 of them and need to possibly sell one.. its got less than 5 hours recorded on it.

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post #2379 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by peteypab2133 View Post
Whats a decent selling price to ask for this camcorder used. I have 2 of them and need to possibly sell one.. its got less than 5 hours recorded on it.

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Depends on where yo live, but here in Sweden the retail price has dropped by 20% since it was introduced and a decent price used is 60-70% of current retail value. I often buy my cameras for 50% or less of current retail.
So if its $1900 at B&H today I guess you could get $1200 but I would take a shot at $1500, there might be someone that bites.
If you live in a large country like the US its easyer, here it would be a verry hard sell since its not selling verry good and the regular consumer dont know why its so expensive compared to a cheap camcorder.
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post #2380 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 03:23 AM
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Does anybody know any type of usage for the so-called "multi" connector on the side of the camera?
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post #2381 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 07:14 AM
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Good starting place. Thank you!

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post #2382 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 12:01 PM
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Completed listings on eBay $1801 and 1829 around Aug 6th for a new camera, lowest used at $1500.00.

Quite a few sold at around $1950 new with about $150.00 worth of extras thrown in.


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post #2383 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leamas View Post
Does anybody know any type of usage for the so-called "multi" connector on the side of the camera?
You can use that port to connect the camcorder to a computer/external media device via USB or you can use it to connect to an analog TV with an appropriate cable.

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post #2384 of 2816 Old 08-18-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by leamas View Post
Does anybody know any type of usage for the so-called "multi" connector on the side of the camera?
The AX100 does not have a LANC terminal which is used to control the camera using buttons and other controls on the tripod handle. Sony's newest tripod uses the multi connector to provide this functionality.

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post #2385 of 2816 Old 08-19-2014, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by James Jimmy View Post
The AX100 does not have a LANC terminal which is used to control the camera using buttons and other controls on the tripod handle. Sony's newest tripod uses the multi connector to provide this functionality.

jamescho
Thank you. Good to know. I was thinking that maybe Sony can release a small device in the future, that can attach to the camera and do 60p instead of 30p (if the camera processing power is not enough inside it, although I really think the limit is in the software only...)
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post #2386 of 2816 Old 08-19-2014, 12:49 PM
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Leamas, I just read an interesting article about HEVC , and downloaded some 4K 265 encoded video. My computer will play those files w/o problems but it is unlikely that the AX100 will be able to handle the data stream encoding according to what I read.
Most UHD TV sets handling HEVC now use 6 core processors.
Interestingly all HEVC video downloaded was either 24P or 30P.

The know-how to create the HEVC format apparently existed years ago but processing power was not available at a reasonable price.
Then too the SDXC storage speed might not be high enough, considering that some like Sony will just barely handle the AX100 writing speed.

I used to record in 60P and the Pana X900 was certainly capable of producing a stunning picture with enough light. So now with 30P I pay more attention to motion and do fine in most cases.

But it would be nice

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post #2387 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 12:29 AM
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Did anybody have the following problem?


When shooting in an environment with many trees, and slowly panning and / or zooming is performed, the resulting clip flickers a bit when viewing on a 4K TV. Mine is 65F9000, could be easily the TV the problem but I don't understand why. The interesting aspect is that when I decrease the sharpness (via the TV and/or the PC driver) the effect is less visible. But then the overall quality drops.


Edit: many trees, bright light, so a lot of small leafs compose the scene.
You can easily eliminate this effect, by turning off whatever your TV manufacturer calls its frame interpolation scheme. Sony calls theirs "MotionFlow". Depending on how your video was shot, you'll see more judder at 30p, and you will lose the famous "soap opera effect", but, you'll also lose the flicker.

I just found this out today with my LG 4K TV, which calls their scheme "TruMotion".

Hope this helps.
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post #2388 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 12:38 AM
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Very interesting summarizing about HEVC, Eugene. There are a few questions that should be answered:
- can the image processor in the AX100 handle HEVC compression? probably not
- can the image processor in the AX100 handle 60p in XAVC mode? here I suppose yes although nobody knows if it's really the same processor like the one in the AX1
- if it can, the bitrate and data transfer will be an issue, but there are some faster cards on the market that for sure can handle even 150 Mbps (~20 MBPS) so maybe this is also not a bottleneck
- with all above solved, the heat issue - can the processor in the AX100 function in the small body of it at 60p power? if the answer is no, things may get difficult and there may be the need for an external device


I think that if 60p can be solved via a firmware (even not for free) or via an external device, there will be many people interested, I hope Sony takes this into consideration. I would pay to have 60p but definitely not buy another camera.
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post #2389 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
You can easily eliminate this effect, by turning off whatever your TV manufacturer calls its frame interpolation scheme. Sony calls theirs "MotionFlow". Depending on how your video was shot, you'll see more judder at 30p, and you will lose the famous "soap opera effect", but, you'll also lose the flicker.

I just found this out today with my LG 4K TV, which calls their scheme "TruMotion".

Hope this helps.

I tried to disable the frame interpolation but then it's not watchable. Probably only the clips with no panning or small panning, but in practice when something is moving in the scene, it's simply not usable for me. I have a Samsung F9000 TV. Do you own a TV that has 60p input in 4K?
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post #2390 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 09:03 AM
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I tried to disable the frame interpolation but then it's not watchable. Probably only the clips with no panning or small panning, but in practice when something is moving in the scene, it's simply not usable for me. I have a Samsung F9000 TV. Do you own a TV that has 60p input in 4K?
I have an LG 55" UB9500, and it has HDMI 2.0 on all ports, which makes it 4K60p compliant, however, I'm not aware of any consumer grade camera that even produces 4K 60p content as of yet.

I have a computer running an Nvidia "Kepler" architecture GPU, the latest beta driver for that card will run your computer via HDMI into the LG at 4K60p, albeit, with a slight degradation in color content, which for me, is imperceptible.

Graphics cards that can run the full gamut of colors, and that are HDMI 2.0 compliant will be released later this year, or early next year, so I'm using the Nvidia as a bridge.

In any event, 4K30p footage that does not use frame interpolation will look, naturally, "juddery" if you pan and zoom liberally. That's just the way it is, unless, of course, you use a frame interpolation scheme either in post, or on a television that has the capability of implementing it.

Depending on my own AX100 footage, I either turn it on, or off to suit what I'm viewing. The "shimmering" effect, and the additional moire that frame interpolation introduces to 4K30p footage is the trade off for the "soap opera effect" that smooths out the judder and for what I assume you consider to be watchable.
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post #2391 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
I have an LG 55" UB9500, and it has HDMI 2.0 on all ports, which makes it 4K60p compliant, however, I'm not aware of any consumer grade camera that even produces 4K 60p content as of yet.

I have a computer running an Nvidia "Kepler" architecture GPU, the latest beta driver for that card will run your computer via HDMI into the LG at 4K60p, albeit, with a slight degradation in color content, which for me, is imperceptible.

Graphics cards that can run the full gamut of colors, and that are HDMI 2.0 compliant will be released later this year, or early next year, so I'm using the Nvidia as a bridge.

In any event, 4K30p footage that does not use frame interpolation will look, naturally, "juddery" if you pan and zoom liberally. That's just the way it is, unless, of course, you use a frame interpolation scheme either in post, or on a television that has the capability of implementing it.

Depending on my own AX100 footage, I either turn it on, or off to suit what I'm viewing. The "shimmering" effect, and the additional moire that frame interpolation introduces to 4K30p footage is the trade off for the "soap opera effect" that smooths out the judder and for what I assume you consider to be watchable.
All true. I asked you about your setup because there may be something that happens "inside" the media player application or the graphics card that converts the 30p clip to 60 Hz output to the TV. Try to compare the 30p mode with the 60p mode and see if there is any visual difference. I am curious.

Last edited by leamas; 08-20-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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post #2392 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 10:06 AM
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I tried to disable the frame interpolation but then it's not watchable.
First they push low-frame rate cameras, and people are happy to buy them because they are, hey, 4K. Then they push TVs with "soap opera" effect to smooth out low frame rate. Win-win for manufacturers. They are always happy to offer technology to improve another inferior technology instead of simply offering a better technology from the beginning. Very similar to deinterlacing craze of ten years ago.
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post #2393 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 10:11 AM
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All true. I asked you about your setup because there may be something that happens "inside" the media player application or the graphics card that converts the 30p clip to 60 Hz output to the TV. Try to compare the 30p mode with the 60p mode and see if there is any visual difference. I am curious.
I'm using PowerDVD13 to view my XAVC-S encoded 4K30P files via computer and an HDMI connection. Now, the card is running at 4K60P, and the TV handshakes with and accepts this signal, however, that won't do anything for the files that are native 4K30P.

PowerDVD has it's own frame interpolation method, however, it's not really that good, and there is really no noticeable difference in judder when it's applied to the 4K30P file, if the TV interpolation is turned off.

In any event, native 4K30p, or any 30p footage is not going to be as silky smooth as 60p.

Any post production or hardware or software application of frame interpolation to 4K30p or any 30p footage will also, naturally, introduce some side effect to the footage, whether it be moire, shimmering, "hiccups" or other disconcerting effects while viewing that footage.

At this point, short of having a 4K60P camera at your disposal, or shooting 1080HD60p footage, you either need to live with the natural judder of 30p, or learn to live with the artifacts inherent with any post processing intended to smooth out the judder of 30p.

As far as I know.
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post #2394 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 11:23 AM
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I'm using PowerDVD13 to view my XAVC-S encoded 4K30P files via computer and an HDMI connection. Now, the card is running at 4K60P, and the TV handshakes with and accepts this signal, however, that won't do anything for the files that are native 4K30P.

PowerDVD has it's own frame interpolation method, however, it's not really that good, and there is really no noticeable difference in judder when it's applied to the 4K30P file, if the TV interpolation is turned off.

I see. What about entering 4K 60 Hz resolution, playing files using PowerDVD and also turning frame interpolation on? The reason I ask this is: I have the sensation that the various frame interpolation algorithms (both PC & TV) do the things not so perfect. On my TV by example, it is done by blocks of pixels rather than pixels. I wonder how the combination of two behaves.
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post #2395 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 11:37 AM
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Leamas you touched on something that I did not think about, heat. With 60P the camera sensor would need to be scanned twice as fast and that, assuming it can be done, would most likely require a fan. So with all those obstacles the AX100 will probably stay at 30P.

And then there is the most curious case of the AX100 professional version. It is, according to my feeble memory, available in HD only with an upgrade promised for $K 60P(?) that will cost additional $$. The future upgrade implies HEVC .

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/07/th...mall-packages/

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/...pact-camcorder

I sure would like to get my hands on that EVF eyecup!!!

As to the 30P debate, most BR DVD's are 24P, so it is even worse but I rarely see any problems when watching them. So what is different?

The videos I take rarely pan or zoom and if I do then only very slowly. I used to shoot HD in 60P but mostly for the huge improvement in resolution over 60i, from 600 LPPH to 1000 LPPH.

I use Media Player Classic plus their Codec light upgrade

But all this is mute if one tries to record soccer etc game.

Gene

Last edited by Eugene157; 08-20-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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post #2396 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 12:52 PM
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I just hope that the guys at Sony thought about the fact that few people will switch from AX100 to a future 4K60 camera, just for that capability. The AX100 picture is stunning and there are only few cases where we feel the lack of 60p. So I really hope something can be done, regardless of the codec / fan / card speed issues. Even to record on an external storage device is a theoretical possibility, and if the bitrate is big, the compression will be easier to be done of course. But all these are only suppositions.


Yes, blurays are 24p and the motion is flawless and I don't know exactly why it's not the same with the consumer cameras but a reason can be that they have advanced moving devices that pan the cameras at each 1/24 of a second, synchronizing with the shutter. Maybe somebody has more knowledge to explain this. Also without frame interpolation, motion on that 24p content is nearly perfect.
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post #2397 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 01:23 PM
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You are right, I would not get an other camera just for 60P.

So far have not done so, but if major movement is important I would switch to HD 60P. My editor, PD12 allows mixing of different frame rates. When burning to HD I do so at 60P effectively doubling the frames. When playing 4K it is from a HDD or USB drive. All of it looks great on a HD TV, waiting to see the Vizio 4K 70" that should be out in a month or so.

Gene
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post #2398 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 01:27 PM
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I see. What about entering 4K 60 Hz resolution, playing files using PowerDVD and also turning frame interpolation on? The reason I ask this is: I have the sensation that the various frame interpolation algorithms (both PC & TV) do the things not so perfect. On my TV by example, it is done by blocks of pixels rather than pixels. I wonder how the combination of two behaves.
Either straight from the camera to HDMI in, or from the computer with my aforementioned set up, the playback is the same with the TV's frame interpolation on (smooth), and with it off (judder). What you see with 4K30p footage is what its always going to be. Unless, of course, you artificially enhance it with the TV's interpolation, or via software, and then, you will see the shimmering you described earlier. Because a video card can display at 4K60P, doesn't mean it, by itself, makes the native footage 60P.

The original footage is, what it is.

Last edited by kualakin; 08-20-2014 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Clarity.
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post #2399 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 01:30 PM
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I just hope that the guys at Sony thought about the fact that few people will switch from AX100 to a future 4K60 camera, just for that capability. The AX100 picture is stunning and there are only few cases where we feel the lack of 60p. So I really hope something can be done, regardless of the codec / fan / card speed issues. Even to record on an external storage device is a theoretical possibility, and if the bitrate is big, the compression will be easier to be done of course. But all these are only suppositions.


Yes, blurays are 24p and the motion is flawless and I don't know exactly why it's not the same with the consumer cameras but a reason can be that they have advanced moving devices that pan the cameras at each 1/24 of a second, synchronizing with the shutter. Maybe somebody has more knowledge to explain this. Also without frame interpolation, motion on that 24p content is nearly perfect.
Movies you see at 24P, with a 24fps frame rate, at least virtually all theatrical releases, are shot by cinematographers with decades of experience, and literally millions of dollars worth of equipment.

That partially explains why you don't see, or notice, the judder inherent to that frame rate at the theater.

I'm not sure of the exact technical aspects, but when Blu-Ray discs and DVD's are played, there is also 3:2 "pulldown", either on the player, or on the TV, that also contributes to a smoother viewing experience.
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post #2400 of 2816 Old 08-20-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
I'm not sure of the exact technical aspects, but when Blu-Ray discs and DVD's are played, there is also 3:2 "pulldown", either on the player, or on the TV, that also contributes to a smoother viewing experience.
This statement is false. Many modern TVs support frame rates that are even multiples of 24p so there is no 3:2 pulldown applied at any point in the playback chain. And for TVs/players apply 3:2 pulldown, it very obviously disrupts the motion cadence. 3:2 pulldown NEVER results in smoother motion.
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