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post #2401 of 2545 Old 08-20-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
This statement is false. Many modern TVs support frame rates that are even multiples of 24p so there is no 3:2 pulldown applied at any point in the playback chain. And for TVs/players apply 3:2 pulldown, it very obviously disrupts the motion cadence. 3:2 pulldown NEVER results in smoother motion.
OK.

But, it is interesting how smooth cinematographers get such smooth playback from 24 fps. I've always believed that mostly, it's because they're well versed in how to optimize shooting that way.

Hard as I try, shooting at either 1/48 or 1/60 shutter speed, at 24 and 30fps respectively, I've found it almost impossible to duplicate the smoothness of the end product of the masters who do it professionally.
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post #2402 of 2545 Old 08-20-2014, 06:31 PM
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1. slower shutter speed
2. shallower depth of field
3. following the subject keeping it almost static in relation to the frame
4. Combine 1, 2 and 3 in different variations
5. either very smooth pans or whip pans
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post #2403 of 2545 Old 08-20-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
OK.

But, it is interesting how smooth cinematographers get such smooth playback from 24 fps. I've always believed that mostly, it's because they're well versed in how to optimize shooting that way.

Hard as I try, shooting at either 1/48 or 1/60 shutter speed, at 24 and 30fps respectively, I've found it almost impossible to duplicate the smoothness of the end product of the masters who do it professionally.
Many things can cause motion judder. The most common problem in my experience is the playback device. DVDs rarely stutter because they are encoded at a low bit rate with a codec that is very easy to decode. But if you are looking at the video on your computer, there are many possible bottlenecks, including slow storage, insufficient memory, slow cpu, poor playback software.
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post #2404 of 2545 Old 08-20-2014, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
Many things can cause motion judder. The most common problem in my experience is the playback device. DVDs rarely stutter because they are encoded at a low bit rate with a codec that is very easy to decode. But if you are looking at the video on your computer, there are many possible bottlenecks, including slow storage, insufficient memory, slow cpu, poor playback software.
The "judder" I'm referring to is what is inherent with 24fps, and 30fps video, compared to 60fps footage.

Watching 30p straight out of the camera, as opposed to 60p straight out of the camera, in this case, the Sony AX100, with no frame interpolation on the monitor or TV employed, the smoothness of motion is demonstrably more profound with the 60p footage, while the 30p footage has an inherent "judder", especially noticeable with pans and zooms.

So, the "judder" I'm describing is not computer or software related, although I'm sure it could be exacerbated by the conditions you described if you were feeding your monitor the footage from a computer and its installed software ecosystem.
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post #2405 of 2545 Old 08-20-2014, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
1. slower shutter speed
2. shallower depth of field
3. following the subject keeping it almost static in relation to the frame
4. Combine 1, 2 and 3 in different variations
5. either very smooth pans or whip pans
I agree with all points but not 2. There are scenes filmed at wide, where subjects run by example, but you also see the buildings around. I think they don't have any limitation because the camera is moved by some equipment that does every pan at 1/24 or so. Of course the other aspects like manual focus and correct exposure settings by default.


And then, there is another theory, that the human eye cannot perceive more than 24 fps. I think this is not true. The human eye can be learned to do many things. A trained eye will figure out small differences while a regular eye won't. If this would be true, we will not need 60p cameras of course.
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post #2406 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 08:25 AM
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Playback on the AX100 is not necessarily free of problems. XAVC S is a highly compressed codec that requires significant computer resources to decode. So the problem you're observing could be a limitation of the AX100 decoder.

Pans require a lot of information to encode because each frame contains new information that did not appear in the previous frame. So in a pan it is easy to exceed the maximum bit rate of the codec (eg 50Mbps), which can severely compromise the image quality.

Speaking to your original point, skilled cinematographers work within the limits of their equipment. They avoid fast pans when they know they won't look good in the delivery medium.

If you want to know exactly what the problem is, upload the native footage so we can all take a look at it and tell you what went wrong.
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post #2407 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
Playback on the AX100 is not necessarily free of problems. XAVC S is a highly compressed codec that requires significant computer resources to decode. So the problem you're observing could be a limitation of the AX100 decoder.

Pans require a lot of information to encode because each frame contains new information that did not appear in the previous frame. So in a pan it is easy to exceed the maximum bit rate of the codec (eg 50Mbps), which can severely compromise the image quality.

Speaking to your original point, skilled cinematographers work within the limits of their equipment. They avoid fast pans when they know they won't look good in the delivery medium.

If you want to know exactly what the problem is, upload the native footage so we can all take a look at it and tell you what went wrong.
No computer necessary.

If you plug the AX100 directly in to a TV, such as mine, a 4K LG 55" UB9500, (HDMI 2.0 compliant), it's easy to see the demonstrable difference between 30p and 60p footage.

The AX100 is limited to 30P at 4K resolution.

Panning and zooming at that frame rate is inherently, irrespective of the codec or the camera itself, more "juddery" that 1080 60P.

So, for now, the trade off for 4K resolution, at least at the consumer level....and as far as I know, there are no 4K60P cameras available at a consumer level price point....is less "silky smooth" footage, albeit with much higher detail and resolution.

This is clearly apparent, whether you plug the camera into a monitor directly, or play the files the camera created with a computer hooked up to a monitor.

This "judder" can be mitigated with frame interpolation, which the LG 4K has and does quite well, however, as one of the previous posters noted, this comes at a cost of a "shimmering" effect that frame interpolation causes with dense colors, like grass and foliage.

Nothing can completely make 30P footage look as "liquid smooth" as 60P footage, especially when you pan.

So, the only solution natively, is to shoot at 60P if you want virtually no judder, and wait, like I am, for an affordable 4K60P "prosumer" type of camcorder or camera, which I think we'll see quite soon.

Until then, I can live with the 30P "judder" at 4K, because there are workarounds that can make it quite enjoyable to watch.
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post #2408 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by leamas View Post
I agree with all points but not 2. There are scenes filmed at wide, where subjects run by example, but you also see the buildings around. I think they don't have any limitation because the camera is moved by some equipment
That. See #3 in my list.
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And then, there is another theory, that the human eye cannot perceive more than 24 fps.
They chose 24 fps simply because lower rate was completely unrealistic, watch early silent movies.
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post #2409 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
No computer necessary.

If you plug the AX100 directly in to a TV, such as mine, a 4K LG 55" UB9500, (HDMI 2.0 compliant), it's easy to see the demonstrable difference between 30p and 60p footage.

The AX100 is limited to 30P at 4K resolution.

Panning and zooming at that frame rate is inherently, irrespective of the codec or the camera itself, more "juddery" that 1080 60P.

So, for now, the trade off for 4K resolution, at least at the consumer level....and as far as I know, there are no 4K60P cameras available at a consumer level price point....is less "silky smooth" footage, albeit with much higher detail and resolution.

This is clearly apparent, whether you plug the camera into a monitor directly, or play the files the camera created with a computer hooked up to a monitor.

This "judder" can be mitigated with frame interpolation, which the LG 4K has and does quite well, however, as one of the previous posters noted, this comes at a cost of a "shimmering" effect that frame interpolation causes with dense colors, like grass and foliage.

Nothing can completely make 30P footage look as "liquid smooth" as 60P footage, especially when you pan.

So, the only solution natively, is to shoot at 60P if you want virtually no judder, and wait, like I am, for an affordable 4K60P "prosumer" type of camcorder or camera, which I think we'll see quite soon.

Until then, I can live with the 30P "judder" at 4K, because there are workarounds that can make it quite enjoyable to watch.
I don't think you understand the playback issue. If you did, you would know that it's easier to decode 1080p60 than 2160p30.

You don't need 60 fps to get smooth motion. You can get smooth motion with 24 fps.

Instead of arguing generalities, you should post your original footage. Then we can tell you exactly why you have a motion problem.
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post #2410 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
I don't think you understand the playback issue. If you did, you would know that it's easier to decode 1080p60 than 2160p30.

You don't need 60 fps to get smooth motion. You can get smooth motion with 24 fps.

Instead of arguing generalities, you should post your original footage. Then we can tell you exactly why you have a motion problem.
I'm keenly aware that there are filming techniques that can be employed to make 24P and 30P footage look less "juddery", my only point is, that 60P, if only because there are more frames per second producing the image, makes employing those filming techniques less essential in producing a less "juddery" image, if that's the look you're after.

There are many who like the "film like" judder that 24P and 30P produce, and there are times when I prefer it also.

There is no argument here. The fact is, 24P and 30P are organically more judder prone, than 60P. It's just math and physics.

It has nothing to do with technique, computers, or software.
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post #2411 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
1. slower shutter speed
2. shallower depth of field
3. following the subject keeping it almost static in relation to the frame
4. Combine 1, 2 and 3 in different variations
5. either very smooth pans or whip pans
^+1
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post #2412 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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One factor may be the speed at which the image is read from the sensor. At 2k it takes less time than at 4k and thus less judder. The pros may simply be using cameras that read the images faster plus working within the specs when panning etc.

Gene
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post #2413 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post
One factor may be the speed at which the image is read from the sensor. At 2k it takes less time than at 4k and thus less judder. The pros may simply be using cameras that read the images faster plus working within the specs when panning etc.
Nope. This would affect the severity of rolling shutter artefacts but not the frame-by-frame judder.
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post #2414 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
There is no argument here. The fact is, 24P and 30P are organically more judder prone, than 60P. It's just math and physics.

It has nothing to do with technique, computers, or software.
The flaw in your argument is to infer that the problems in your footage are attributable to the difference between 30p and 60p. This is an invalid inference. If you knew what you were doing, you would be able to film at 24p or 30p without creating any motion artifacts on your target playback device. The fact that you are unable to do so means means you have room for improvement. The fact that you are unwilling to post the problematic footage suggests that either you are a troll or you aren't willing to learn.
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post #2415 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 06:42 PM
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Thank you ungermann I will try to remember the difference. Makes sense as far as rolling shutter, looked up judder on Wiki.

  1. (television) Jerky playback caused by converting between frame rates; telecine judder




Ultimate rolling shutter, passing speed is 600KMH with AX 100, 5 coach magnetic levitation train passed in about 20 frames.

Judder not a problem here, I get smooth pb from AX100 material either from hdd or DVD


Gene

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post #2416 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 07:17 PM
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How does one post a video here directly w/o YouTube or Vimeo etc.?

Last edited by Eugene157; 08-21-2014 at 07:23 PM.
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post #2417 of 2545 Old 08-21-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
The flaw in your argument is to infer that the problems in your footage are attributable to the difference between 30p and 60p. This is an invalid inference. If you knew what you were doing, you would be able to film at 24p or 30p without creating any motion artifacts on your target playback device. The fact that you are unable to do so means means you have room for improvement. The fact that you are unwilling to post the problematic footage suggests that either you are a troll or you aren't willing to learn.
There's no flaw in my argument, because, I'm not making one.

And, there's no problem in my footage, and have not professed to having any, having stated previously that I shoot either 30 or 60P, depending on the look I'm aiming for, which I can find pleasing either way, depending on what I'm trying to record.

60P provides smoother video than 30P or 24P, by definition, because, it captures more frames per second.

That's inarguable.

I really don't need to post any clips, because, you can see for yourself, with a camera that shoots at 24 or 30 and 60fps, which you probably have, no?

Go outside and shoot a moderate pan across any horizon, from your right to left, 180 degrees, with some sort of objects, like a column or building in the background. Take from 6 to 10 seconds to do the pan. One at either 24fps or 30fps, and then one at 60fps. Pick any shutter speed and aperture you choose.

Which pan looks more liquid and smooth?

24 and 30P can be smooth, but, because of physics, 60P will always be more smooth.
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post #2418 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 06:48 AM
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Sony fdr-ax100 and MacBook Pro 15 inch (Retina Display)

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Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by SD90 

Do you currently have a high end late 2013 or 2014 Macbook Pro with a dedicated Nvidia graphics card? Maybe you should pose your questions to the Macbook Pro forum at http://forums.macrumors.com/ Also read the Mac Pro forum at http://forums.macrumors.com/ to see what others have been doing in your situation. I vaguely remember reading that support for 4K viewing would likely be coming in the next Mac OS update (10.9.3).


Yes, I just bought the late 2013 MacBook Pro with the 2.3Ghz processor, 15" screen, a 512GB solid state drive, and the NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M with 2GB GDDR5 memory. Evidently that still isn't enough. Thanks for suggesting the Macrumors site. Although, so far they don't seem to have the exact situation that I have in their posts. I will post a question about my situation.
Hello...

I am new to this forum. I was wondering, were you able to find a solution for the jumpy 4k playback. I plan on purchasing the Sony fdr-ax100, along with the MacBook 15 inch Retina Display. Your post is disheartening. I have been searching for weeks for the minimum requirements to edit fdr-ax100 footage. Can't find it ANYWHERE. I know about the Mac Pro. I just don't feel that $4k (the price) is feasible. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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post #2419 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 07:02 AM
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Sony fdr-ax100 and MacBook Pro 15 inch (Retina Display)

Hi Folks...

Yes, I am a newbie, and I am impressed with your collective knowledge of the fdr-ax100.

I was wondering if someone could help me with a very basic problem. I hope to purchase the fdr-ax100 in a few months. But first, I need to upgrade my system. I've been looking at the MacBook Pro line (I currently have a 2011 i3 iMac). I've been searching for an answer for weeks. No luck. I've heard every extreme comment - from needing to buy a Mac Pro to editing 4k on a MacBook Air.

I like the feel of the 13 inch MacBook Pro Retina Display. However, I realize that the quad-core 15 inch Retina Display (with discreet graphics card) would be a less frustrating experience for editing 4k.

Has anyone had any luck with the "less powerful" systems?

Thanks a bunch.

- RWDiBacco
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post #2420 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RWDiBacco View Post
Hi Folks...

Yes, I am a newbie, and I am impressed with your collective knowledge of the fdr-ax100.

I was wondering if someone could help me with a very basic problem. I hope to purchase the fdr-ax100 in a few months. But first, I need to upgrade my system. I've been looking at the MacBook Pro line (I currently have a 2011 i3 iMac). I've been searching for an answer for weeks. No luck. I've heard every extreme comment - from needing to buy a Mac Pro to editing 4k on a MacBook Air.

I like the feel of the 13 inch MacBook Pro Retina Display. However, I realize that the quad-core 15 inch Retina Display (with discreet graphics card) would be a less frustrating experience for editing 4k.

Has anyone had any luck with the "less powerful" systems?

Thanks a bunch.

- RWDiBacco

Any of the hardware you mentioned will be fine. The issue is the software editing program. You need to pay attention to that. I do not use Apple hardware as I do not think the premium prices are worth the feel, so I cannot give you guidance on the software that works for Apple machines and works with 4K. If you can afford those Apple machines, you can afford to invest in a good editing program.

I have successfully edited 4K on Celeron- to i7- processor Windows 8 pc's and laptops using Sony editing software. The power of the processor/graphics card/disk-speed mostly only affected render time, not the ability to manipulate and edit and see effects or the quality of the resulting video.
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post #2421 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 07:19 AM
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Hello...

I am new to this forum. I was wondering, were you able to find a solution for the jumpy 4k playback. I plan on purchasing the Sony fdr-ax100, along with the MacBook 15 inch Retina Display. Your post is disheartening. I have been searching for weeks for the minimum requirements to edit fdr-ax100 footage. Can't find it ANYWHERE. I know about the Mac Pro. I just don't feel that $4k (the price) is feasible. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Yes, with the OS update, my MacBook Pro is playing the video perfectly. I shoot it with the AX100 and edit it in Final Cut Pro X. My current problems (there seem to be no end to them with a new thing like 4k) I have found no way to put the video onto an SD or USB card and play the video back on my Sony 4k TV. The built-in player does not support 4k. (wasn't that smart for Sony to build a 4k TV with no 4k player?) The other, less serious problem is that I also purchased a Samsung 28" UHD monitor to use for editing. It works great, except streaks show up in the picture. Apple says it is Samsung's duty to supply a driver to correct this. Depending on who you talk to at Samsung, they are either working on a solution, or there is not problem - it is plug and play on a Mac. No telling how that will turn out.

Edited to add: In case I wasn't clear, the Mac Book Pro plays the 4k edited video perfectly through its HDMI port into the Sony TV. It is just impossible at present to find a stand alone player to play the video from an SD or USB card.

Last edited by chenderson2; 08-22-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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post #2422 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Yes, with the OS update, my MacBook Pro is playing the video perfectly. I shoot it with the AX100 and edit it in Final Cut Pro X. My current problems (there seem to be no end to them with a new thing like 4k) I have found no way to put the video onto an SD or USB card and play the video back on my Sony 4k TV. The built-in player does not support 4k. (wasn't that smart for Sony to build a 4k TV with no 4k player?) The other, less serious problem is that I also purchased a Samsung 28" UHD monitor to use for editing. It works great, except streaks show up in the picture. Apple says it is Samsung's duty to supply a driver to correct this. Depending on who you talk to at Samsung, they are either working on a solution, or there is not problem - it is plug and play on a Mac. No telling how that will turn out.

It is very useful to hear about your Aplle hardware and software experience in producing 4K video. But, let's keep the playback on your 4K TV as a separate issue from editing and producing 4K video.


I am going to start a thread about playback of 4K videos on 4K TV's, where this discussion belongs. There are solutions. There is no reason to expect that a TV should also be a video player. Your TV doesn't play Blurays or DVD's, right? You get a bluray player or a DVD player. So, get a 4K video player to attach to a TV.
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post #2423 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 07:33 AM
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It is very useful to hear about your Aplle hardware and software experience in producing 4K video. But, let's keep the playback on your 4K TV as a separate issue from editing and producing 4K video.


I am going to start a thread about playback of 4K videos on 4K TV's, where this discussion belongs. There are solutions. There is no reason to expect that a TV should also be a video player. Your TV doesn't play Blurays or DVD's, right? You get a bluray player or a DVD player. So, get a 4K video player to attach to a TV.
Please do. There seems to be no way to do this (at least with the early Sony UHD TVs.) I have been researching Blu Ray players, and even searching for any player that can play back 4k into a UHD TV. In other words, to address your comment "So, get a 4K video player to attach to a TV" Please tell me where. My latest effort was a Nanotech player for $299. It did not work either. Neither the player app in it would support 4k, nor would the OS (Kit-Kat Google) support reading exfat USB drives. I'm still looking. Have you found one?
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post #2424 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 08:54 AM
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I think the solution for that may be a HTPC, it would play everything including streaming etc. Should be doable under $500 especially if one has some stuff like hdd's, power supplies etc floating around..

And equally important, easy to update

And might be price competitive with early 4K DVD players.

Gene
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post #2425 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Yes, with the OS update, my MacBook Pro is playing the video perfectly. I shoot it with the AX100 and edit it in Final Cut Pro X. My current problems (there seem to be no end to them with a new thing like 4k) I have found no way to put the video onto an SD or USB card and play the video back on my Sony 4k TV. The built-in player does not support 4k. (wasn't that smart for Sony to build a 4k TV with no 4k player?) The other, less serious problem is that I also purchased a Samsung 28" UHD monitor to use for editing. It works great, except streaks show up in the picture. Apple says it is Samsung's duty to supply a driver to correct this. Depending on who you talk to at Samsung, they are either working on a solution, or there is not problem - it is plug and play on a Mac. No telling how that will turn out.

Edited to add: In case I wasn't clear, the Mac Book Pro plays the 4k edited video perfectly through its HDMI port into the Sony TV. It is just impossible at present to find a stand alone player to play the video from an SD or USB card.
FWIW, I have the same 28" Samsung UHD monitor and see no streaks on my Windows 8 machine while playing back 4K AX100 files.
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post #2426 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Yes, with the OS update, my MacBook Pro is playing the video perfectly. I shoot it with the AX100 and edit it in Final Cut Pro X. My current problems (there seem to be no end to them with a new thing like 4k) I have found no way to put the video onto an SD or USB card and play the video back on my Sony 4k TV. The built-in player does not support 4k. (wasn't that smart for Sony to build a 4k TV with no 4k player?) The other, less serious problem is that I also purchased a Samsung 28" UHD monitor to use for editing. It works great, except streaks show up in the picture. Apple says it is Samsung's duty to supply a driver to correct this. Depending on who you talk to at Samsung, they are either working on a solution, or there is not problem - it is plug and play on a Mac. No telling how that will turn out.

Edited to add: In case I wasn't clear, the Mac Book Pro plays the 4k edited video perfectly through its HDMI port into the Sony TV. It is just impossible at present to find a stand alone player to play the video from an SD or USB card.
The camera itself could be your stand alone player, no?

At least used as a bridge until the hardware catches up.
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post #2427 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kualakin View Post
The camera itself could be your stand alone player, no?

At least used as a bridge until the hardware catches up.
NO. We have always been able to play back the individual clips from the AX100 on our Sony UHD TVs. However, the minute you edit the video in any way, it can not be put back onto the AX100 and played. That means no titles, no transitions and all the footage of your feet would still be in the playback.
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post #2428 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
FWIW, I have the same 28" Samsung UHD monitor and see no streaks on my Windows 8 machine while playing back 4K AX100 files.
It seems to be a documented problem only with the Mac. Funny thing is that Windows has a driver supplied by Samsung, but Macs are supposed to be "plug and play."
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post #2429 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 11:19 AM
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I have to tell you, over the years I've seen more editing issues from posters with Macs than PCs by far. It's one of the reasons I've never gone with a Mac.
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post #2430 of 2545 Old 08-22-2014, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I have to tell you, over the years I've seen more editing issues from posters with Macs than PCs by far. It's one of the reasons I've never gone with a Mac.
Well, this time it isn't really an editing issue, but rather a compatibility issue with displays.
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