Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 98 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2911 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 02:10 AM
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Guys, some good news about the motion clips. I own a Samsung F9000 TV plus a 2014 OneConnect box. I have some clips filmed from a moving car, which I could never watch because of stuttering effects. I thought it can be either from rolling shutter, XAVC-S compression or 30p. Surprise: I updated the firmware for my TV box and now they play smoothly! Of course using the frame interpolation options on my TV. So 30p may not be a real bottleneck. And also the rolling shutter. The clips I am talking about are filmed at around 50-60 km/h and to the right of the car (so vertical moving objects are at ~10 m distance). In conclusion, it's difficult to judge for the moment the 4K cameras since the TVs have still some pending work... And together with the 100 Mbps promised firmware, the AX100 will be a nearly perfect camera.
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post #2912 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 08:33 AM
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In the "old days" of the Sony HX9V, the camera shipped with software called Picture Motion Browser. Since then the software has "upgraded" to Play Memories Home. Neither are considered stellar editors but PMB had two unique features. You could "smart edit" clips into a video and put them back on the camera to use as a media player over HDMI. I only did it once and I even snuck in clips from a Panasonic. Does the AX100 get Play Memories Home? Was PMH improved to cover 4K? If you only trim and join clips without further editing improvements, it may work.
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post #2913 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leamas View Post
Guys, some good news about the motion clips. I own a Samsung F9000 TV plus a 2014 OneConnect box. I have some clips filmed from a moving car, which I could never watch because of stuttering effects. I thought it can be either from rolling shutter, XAVC-S compression or 30p. Surprise: I updated the firmware for my TV box and now they play smoothly! Of course using the frame interpolation options on my TV. So 30p may not be a real bottleneck. And also the rolling shutter. The clips I am talking about are filmed at around 50-60 km/h and to the right of the car (so vertical moving objects are at ~10 m distance). In conclusion, it's difficult to judge for the moment the 4K cameras since the TVs have still some pending work... And together with the 100 Mbps promised firmware, the AX100 will be a nearly perfect camera.
In my experience, frame interpolation is the key to making 30p look very close to 60p.
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post #2914 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 06:43 PM
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I have burn some of my 4k video into HD-dvd for my friend. There were not much rolling shutter issue on his dvd/bluray player and smart tv. The image is very crisp and clear.
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post #2915 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
In my experience, frame interpolation is the key to making 30p look very close to 60p.

I learned that from Ken some time ago and it makes a huge difference. Before I had blamed the camera too.

On our TV, a 70" Vizeo P series, it is called "smooth motion effect" and It is in the low position.

Eugene
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Last edited by Eugene157; 01-22-2015 at 09:35 PM.
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post #2916 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chenderson2 View Post
Since the camera plays through the HDMI, there should be no problem playing the 4k that way. The problems come when attempting to play the edited 4k video. Earlier 4k TVs did not support 4k through the USB, but the newer ones do. I solved the problem by purchasing one of the Android based 4k players currently available. With one of those, you put your sd card or usb drive into the player and the player plugs into your TV's HDMI port and everything works fairly well.
Fairly well seems ok but for me using the Probox2 ex, and maybe Eugene, The 4K playback is not that good with artefacts being present throughout the film, With AVCHD & 1080/50p there is much stuttering and again minor visual artefacts. This is through a 2013 LG 85 inch 4K TV.

I have tried various ideas but nothing seems to give a perfect picture other than playing through a current (2014) 4K Sony TV and that's it. Whether a 2014 LG would produce the same result I do not know but its obvious to get the Sony to ensure any problems with the 4K camera / 4K tv can be solved by Sony in house.

Chenderson, how do you find the results of the Probox 2 ex ??
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post #2917 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jgwatt View Post
Fairly well seems ok but for me using the Probox2 ex, and maybe Eugene, The 4K playback is not that good with artefacts being present throughout the film, With AVCHD & 1080/50p there is much stuttering and again minor visual artefacts. This is through a 2013 LG 85 inch 4K TV.

I have tried various ideas but nothing seems to give a perfect picture other than playing through a current (2014) 4K Sony TV and that's it. Whether a 2014 LG would produce the same result I do not know but its obvious to get the Sony to ensure any problems with the 4K camera / 4K tv can be solved by Sony in house.

Chenderson, how do you find the results of the Probox 2 ex ??
I have no problem playing the 4k video (either MOV or mp4) however, the Probox has its problems. Sometimes it will just jump out of the video and go back to the list of files. Also, the whole box will freeze sometimes and need to be unplugged and plugged back in again. I've also noticed that the non 4k videos don't look quite as good as if they are played through the usb on my Blu-Ray player .
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post #2918 of 2924 Unread 01-22-2015, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jgwatt View Post
Fairly well seems ok but for me using the Probox2 ex, and maybe Eugene, The 4K playback is not that good with artefacts being present throughout the film, With AVCHD & 1080/50p there is much stuttering and again minor visual artefacts. This is through a 2013 LG 85 inch 4K TV.

I have tried various ideas but nothing seems to give a perfect picture other than playing through a current (2014) 4K Sony TV and that's it. Whether a 2014 LG would produce the same result I do not know but its obvious to get the Sony to ensure any problems with the 4K camera / 4K tv can be solved by Sony in house.

Chenderson, how do you find the results of the Probox 2 ex ??
I gave up on the Probox 2 and returned it. Overall a good idea but not enough horsepower to carry it out.

We watch TV in our den, the computer is 6 feet away and it can output 4K using a $60 GT640 2GB GPU board much better than the Probox 2.

There has not been a format that I cannot play, (unlike the Probox) including 4K HEVC and the 4 K is as clean as playing from the AX100. It is of course 30P only. I use a mechanical HDMI switch and the computer only takes a few seconds to switch format from the 4K TV to the HD only PC monitor. At some point I will get a 4K PC monitor and can run both at the same time.

So a HTPC may be a practical answer. It certainly can be easily updated once 4K BR comes along. From what I read it will use different discs than HD BR together with a different laser.

Eugene

Last edited by Eugene157; 01-23-2015 at 10:15 AM.
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post #2919 of 2924 Unread 01-23-2015, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post
I learned that from Ken some time ago and it makes a huge difference. Before I had blamed the camera too.

On our TV, a 70" Vizeo P series, it is called "smooth motion effect" and It is in the low position.

Eugene

Of course frame interpolation is the key. But several people, including myself, complained about high movement clips (i.e. sports). And now I came to the conclusion that anything can be filmed with this camera, also high movement scenes, and if properly stabilized, the result, of course combined with the frame interpolation, is nearly perfect. Before I had some hiccups when playing such scenes on my TV, I don't know about other TVs.
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post #2920 of 2924 Unread 01-23-2015, 10:19 AM
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Just to remind that HD BR is only 24 FPS, so how do THEY manage do that? And THEY look good w/o motion interpolation. I am not aware that my $ 80 BR player does that and I know that my PC cannot.

Eugene
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post #2921 of 2924 Unread 01-23-2015, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post
Just to remind that HD BR is only 24 FPS, so how do THEY manage do that? And THEY look good w/o motion interpolation. I am not aware that my $ 80 BR player does that and I know that my PC cannot.

Eugene
In my opinion there are several factors in their favor:


1 they move the camera with some mechanism that guarantees the same panning speed, probably computerized
2 faster sensor readout, also because less megapixels but of course bigger and better sensor(0 delay until the next frame)
3 that mechanism that rotates using the 180 degree rule is producing better motion blur


Interesting if anybody has some other feedback on this. I am also curious.


100% sure your BR player cannot do motion interpolation itself, and also any PC that doesn't have very expensive hardware. Motion interpolation is a complex algorithm. Only the expensive TVs and AV receivers can do it, and I am not sure how lossless is it using the current hardware. This is where the future may look even better. Also, let's keep in mind that 4K is 4 times more processing time than HD.
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post #2922 of 2924 Unread Today, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post
In the "old days" of the Sony HX9V, the camera shipped with software called Picture Motion Browser. Since then the software has "upgraded" to Play Memories Home. Neither are considered stellar editors but PMB had two unique features. You could "smart edit" clips into a video and put them back on the camera to use as a media player over HDMI. I only did it once and I even snuck in clips from a Panasonic. Does the AX100 get Play Memories Home? Was PMH improved to cover 4K? If you only trim and join clips without further editing improvements, it may work.
PMH is freeware; PMB->PMH was a nice improvement, especially since it no longer tried to maintain its database with the file system. 4K is recognized and playable with it, but the trim feature doesn't seem to work with anything other than Sony equipment files. It is very convenient to be able to losslessly trim on the PC just as in the camera itself. I wish Panasonic would do something similar. Their offering (PHOTOfun?Studio) is not up to par for trimming.
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post #2923 of 2924 Unread Today, 10:34 AM
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PMH I wish Panasonic would do something similar. Their offering (PHOTOfun?Studio) is not up to par for trimming.
I'm have good success trimming Panasonic 4K, as well as other adjustments, in Lightroom 5.7, Vegas Movie Studio 13 and Premier Elements 13. High bitrate originals coupled with XAVC-S output in VMS and PrE seems exceptional. Of course LR is not intended to be a NLE, but will make mp4 1080p files.
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post #2924 of 2924 Unread Today, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post
I'm have good success trimming Panasonic 4K, as well as other adjustments, in Lightroom 5.7, Vegas Movie Studio 13 and Premier Elements 13. High bitrate originals coupled with XAVC-S output in VMS and PrE seems exceptional. Of course LR is not intended to be a NLE, but will make mp4 1080p files.
Agreed Bill, SMS13 outputs a very high quality file. The only issue is the computational complexity of re-encoding which makes the trimming in PMH a breeze for those one-shot clips.

I've played around with light room for RAW photos, but never video. I used to use Premier Pro 5.5 and I liked it a lot. I don't prefer using the Adobe CS suite, even though the programs are excellent; I have a personal dislike of rented software.
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