Blackmagic Production Camera 4K Now Shipping for US$2,995 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 09:39 AM
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And I'm sure the color was excellent Joe. wink.gif

Yeah, if you recall I had the 900s smaller brother, the NEX VG30. It took some really nice videos and it too had some excellent low light. Yours might have a better low light performance with its larger sensor.

One thing I've found with the NEX style camcorders, the onboard sound cannot be matched by any camera I've used before or after. Just excellent sound for an onboard mike array.
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post #62 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 11:24 AM
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Hey Ken, talking about sound, did you see the new Sony ECM-W1M Bluetooth Wireless Microphone System for HandyCam Camcorders with Multi Interface Accessory Shoe like the VG900 and AX100 that works up to 100ft away !
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?sku=1029169&Q=&O=&is=REG&A=details



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post #63 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 11:44 AM
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Very nice Joe. I might pick one up if the AX100 works out.
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post #64 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not sure which Sony & Canon cameras you're talking about Bill. IMO the only valid equipment comparison in your example would be other cameras that shoot RAW. Most people have little or no interest in RAW.

For general purpose, family, vacation, event, run n gun etc. type shooting, people generally won't use RAW. If you're talking about Hollywood or Indie types, that's another story.

Correct. What I'm saying is that a $3000 camera that looks this good compared to a $40,000 Alexa will deserve serious consideration from people who are in the market for a $29,000 4K RAW Sony F55 or a $20,000 4K RAW Canon C500.

This is not a camera for the home movie crowd smile.gif
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post #65 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 12:02 PM
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BM 4K should have had 4096 4K cinema resolution like the GH4 IMHO .
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post #66 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

$2995 BMPC ProRes versus a $44,000+ Arri Alexa (the camera that shot every picture nominated for the Best Cinematography Oscar this year):





"Red Dot" problem or no Red Dot problem, when this camera gets CinemaDNG RAW, Arri, RED, Sony and Canon are going to have a real problem.

Movies that get nominated for Oscars were actually shot a few years previously. The Arri is about 4 years old, and at the time those movies were shot it might have been the best option available. That is no longer the case however, so comparing the BMPC to that camera is disingenuous.

Not only that, but Canon are supposedly releasing new 4K cinema-EOS cameras this year, and I would be very surprised if Sony, Panasonic and JVS do not have similar offerings as well by the end of the year or early 2015. Plus, we do not know what Arri have planned either, if they want to remain competitive in their market one would think that they would been designing an upgraded camera as well. At the end of the day the company that can invest the most in development is probably going to hold the high ground, and I seriously doubt that is going to be BM, they are simply too small. I think their primary market is going to be enthusiasts and part time/marginal professionals, not the high end professionals.

The assumption that BM are going to have the field to themselves is not a wise one IMO. There is going to be a ton of extremely capable competition by the end of the year, most of which are going to be polished professional products. BM might produce the cheapest camera, but a real professional is going to be taking things like ergonomics, support, reliability and flexibility into account as well, since time is money and any savings in that arena will quickly make up the difference in the price of the camera.
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post #67 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 01:44 PM
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The reference to the Oscars was simply to make the point that the Alexa is the camera of choice in Hollywood these days.

Alexas are already on 8 features in production in 2014. RED EPICs are on 9 (one of those is international and one is TV). Panaflex Millenium XL2 film cameras are on only 4.

The BMPC may not change these numbers much - but, at $3000, DPs are going to look very hard at it as a possible "B" cam for studio shoots - and as an "A" cam for low budget and indie shoots.

It makes sense that this will cut into the number of DPs who are currently choosing much more expensive 4K cameras to fill these roles, roles filled by the Sony F55 on Poison Sky and The Blacklist - and by the Canon C500 on After Earth; Captain America: Winter Soldier; Need for Speed; The Wolf of Wall Street and Trance.

For those who think that the "Red Dot", "quality control issues" and ergonomics will prevent this camera from being used in Hollywood - I would simply point out that similar issues with the "Black Dot" didn't keep its little brother, the BMCC, from being used on Need for Speed and the Australian TV series Puberty Blues.

Professional DPs and producers aren't as finicky as internet forum participants (they are in business to make money and any business would rather spend $3000 instead of $20,000 to $30,000 for a tool that delivers similar performance - even if the $3000 tool is not perfect) smile.gif

Cheers,

Bill
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post #68 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 02:08 PM
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Since BM has obvious QC issues and other limitations, they wont be the choice of high end pros, including, obviously, Hollywood. In an industry where time wasted translates to huge $$$ waste, BM will not be the choice.

For hobbyists that enjoy working with RAW, it may be their pick as it might be for low budget Indie types that want to work with RAW.

There are many other fine choices that transcend BM.
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post #69 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 07:48 PM
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Productions with a multimillion dollar budget mostly are not going to nickel and dime when it comes to their critical equipment. All it takes is one failure of an SSD and tens of thousands of dollars worth of time is wasted. For a small shooter or an amateur the cost is minor, that is not the case on a big budget shoot.
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post #70 of 83 Old 02-23-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunerww View Post

The reference to the Oscars was simply to make the point that the Alexa is the camera of choice in Hollywood these days.

Alexas are already on 8 features in production in 2014. RED EPICs are on 9 (one of those is international and one is TV). Panaflex Millenium XL2 film cameras are on only 4.

The main reason for using them is that they are known to be reliable, and that is important. Red epics are more prevalent now with current productions, and more advanced cameras that replace them will be front an foremost in future productions.
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post #71 of 83 Old 02-24-2014, 03:14 PM
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Since we're talking Hollywood cameras, here's an awesome shot breakdown on the trailer for Need for Speed:




A couple of notes and observations:

- The $400 GoPro Hero 3+ Black looks pretty good.

- A $20,000 Canon C500 "bit it" in the crash at 0:20, according to http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2014/02/heres-the-gopro/
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post #72 of 83 Old 02-24-2014, 03:22 PM
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Here is a 4K 2160p youtube video of House of Cards - Season 2 - Official Trailer - Netflix .


Aspect Ratio 2.00 : 1
Camera Red Epic, Zeiss Master Prime Lenses
Negative Format Redcode RAW
Cinematographic Process Digital Intermediate (master format)
Redcode RAW (5K) (source format)
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post #73 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

While I really like shooting RAW, I need portability. The BM 4K has a non-replaceable internal battery, so external batteries are needed for field use. That makes the set-up too large and heavy. I've got the EF lenses from my EOS M, so it is too bad.
The EOS M is useless in terms of portability once you attach an EF/EF-S lens to it. With the adapter it is about the same depth as a proper DSLR, but without proper grip, without flip-out screen, without viewfinder. It falls from your (well, from mine) hands and when trying to hold it with the right hand I accidentally push the buttons. Bad, bad, bad ergonomics. If only Canon offered a decent range of EF-M lenses then it would be a more sensible camera.
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As for rolling shutter, you must be used to working with cameras that have really bad cases of this. I've used cameras with rolling shutter issues, but never saw anything that was so horrid or distracted anyone from the general content. I remember a Canon AVCHD cam I had that some complained had terrible rolling shutter. I posted a video with normal pans (not whip pans), some typical action, hand-held walking etc. I asked for people to point where the rolling shutter issues were and that perhaps I missed them. Almost everyone agreed they couldn't see them.

So I'm not saying a global shutter isn't a virtue, but I'm just not used to using cameras that had such terrible cases of rolling shutter that I couldn't live without a global shutter. Thus my ho hum attitude.
I see rolling shutter with the 2007 Canon HG10, I see it with the 2012 (?) Nikon D3200 and I see it with the Canon EOS M. Maybe my hands are not as strong as yours Ken, but I value global shutter more then sheer resolution. I bought two used CCD camcorders on eBay mostly because of global shutter (and also because of native 24p, which was not the norm in 2008). When I see jello in professional videos and movies I cringe, I cannot stand it. Say what you want about film-like latitude, film-like colors, film-like resolution, flim-like grain, but even the slightest hint of jello ruins it for me, I cannot watch a supposedly professional movie if it exhibits jello effect. I'd rather watch stuff shot with the DVX100. So hail to global shutter on the BMPC.
Quote:
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Since BM has obvious QC issues and other limitations, they wont be the choice of high end pros, including, obviously, Hollywood. In an industry where time wasted translates to huge $$$ waste, BM will not be the choice.
As if Red never had quality issues.
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post #74 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 01:39 AM
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"As if Red never had any quality issues"

Exactly. Read this post from Philip Bloom from before he sent his $40,000 RED Epic back to RED:

http://philipbloom.net/2011/11/20/scarlet/

Hollywood uses what consumers would consider "flawed" cameras all the time.

The difference is, they have lots of smart people on the payroll whose highly paid union job it is to figure out workarounds smile.gif
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post #75 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 02:20 AM
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That was 3 years ago, not today. The BMCC has been around for a while now, and it hasn't exactly taken the production world by storm.

Reliability is more than just the physical camera itself, it is also the ability of the operator to deal with its particular quirks and the ability of the camera to interface with a wide range of other gear while remaining practical. Experience using a particular piece of equipment in a complex environment translates into a higher probability of delivering a quality useable product. This is true in any and every field, not only video. What you do NOT want is some equipment that no one has used before being brought in and having to depend on a low experience level to get the job done on a multi million dollar project. A multi million dollar project is not the place to gain that practical experience. It is always better to deal with the devil you know that one you don't in situations like that, particularly when there is a large amount of money riding on the result.
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post #76 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 08:14 AM
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"...it hasn't exactly taken the production world by storm."

If you mean major motion pictures, with its smaller sensor, it wasn't meant to. That's why there's now a Super 35 global shutter Production Camera smile.gif

Only time will tell whether or not the new camera is adopted by Hollywood.

I, for one, will let time unfold and look at the data on http://www.shotonwhat.com to see what the marketplace decides.

Cheers,

Bill
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post #77 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 09:06 AM
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Blackmagic Production Camera 4K Unboxing
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post #78 of 83 Old 02-26-2014, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Downloadable 4K BMPC 4K Video, by Dale Metz:

https://vimeo.com/87583575#at=0

Naturally color-graded with plenty of people action; no flower close-ups.
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post #79 of 83 Old 02-27-2014, 01:34 AM
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Same distressing lack of resolution though.

The 24 mbps data rate might have something to do with that.
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post #80 of 83 Old 03-05-2014, 04:43 PM
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ORIGINAL 4K AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD
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post #81 of 83 Old 03-05-2014, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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There is nothing "original" about that 4K video; it is a 24Mbps mp4. A cell phone (Nokia Note 3) produces a better-speced UHD video. Let's get an out-of-camera Pro Res 4K file at 220 Mbps. Then we can talk about the quality the camera produces. Very well graded though.
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post #82 of 83 Old 03-05-2014, 05:11 PM
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mark, 220Mbps is what BM uses for 1080p. The 4k ProRes is actually 880Mbps


Im having an error when I try to download the 4k version. It says that the file is corrupted
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post #83 of 83 Old 03-09-2014, 04:46 PM
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Although only in 1080p, they look simply beautiful. The only thing that this camera needs is a cheap storage solution.
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