Which Camcorder to purchase? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking to pick up a Camcorder that will record in 1080P. I am very new to the camera world, so I am not very knowledgeable in this area. I would like to keep it under $800, closer to $500 would be great. It will mainly be used to record family get togethers and maybe a few sporting events. Again any help and guidance on this would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jared717 View Post

I am looking to pick up a Camcorder that will record in 1080P. I am very new to the camera world, so I am not very knowledgeable in this area. I would like to keep it under $800, closer to $500 would be great. It will mainly be used to record family get togethers and maybe a few sporting events. Again any help and guidance on this would be appreciated.

get a sony with boss (Balanced Optical SteadyShot Image Stabilization)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1022663-REG/sony_hdrpj540_b_16gb_hdr_pj340_full_hd.html
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post #3 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks I really appreciate the recommendation, I will check it out.
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post #4 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 10:21 AM
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The Olympus E-M5 ($719 with 14-42mm kit lens) has better image stablization that any camcorder, it's viewfinder is vastly better, it's video colors richer and it's small and compact: http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/outlet/reconditioned-cameras/e-m5-with-m-zuiko-digital-14-42mm-ii-r-black-reconditioned.html So you get a first class interchangeable lens still image camera plus a 1080p/30 frames per second video camera all in one. The video of the E-M5 is so stable it's like you're shooting with the camera on a tripod.

Sub $1,000 consumer grade camcorders are kinda like dinosaurs; i.e. slowly headed toward extinction because their video quality is not better than a still camera and their still image quality is worse.
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post #5 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

The Olympus E-M5 ($719 with 14-42mm kit lens) has better image stablization that any camcorder, it's viewfinder is vastly better, it's video colors richer and it's small and compact: http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/outlet/reconditioned-cameras/e-m5-with-m-zuiko-digital-14-42mm-ii-r-black-reconditioned.html So you get a first class interchangeable lens still image camera plus a 1080p/30 frames per second video camera all in one. The video of the E-M5 is so stable it's like you're shooting with the camera on a tripod.

Sub $1,000 consumer grade camcorders are kinda like dinosaurs; i.e. slowly headed toward extinction because their video quality is not better than a still camera and their still image quality is worse.

Sorry, you do not get "better image stablization [sic] that any camcorder" because in video its all digital, the worst. Also 108030p is outdated; 108060p is much better, and the camera cannot do it. So, you get a great stills camera and a totally mediocre, poorly stabilized and outdated in capability video recorder in one! Talk about video dinosaurs.
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post #6 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jared717 View Post

Thanks I really appreciate the recommendation, I will check it out.

I have the sony cx760 with boss system (discontinued item)

reason I recommend sony pj540 is because it is the only sony camcorder available for sale with boss system.
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post #7 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

Sub $1,000 consumer grade camcorders are kinda like dinosaurs; i.e. slowly headed toward extinction because their video quality is not better than a still camera and their still image quality is worse.

saw this the other day...

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaUngL6VAdg

part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HLhR8yqiso
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post #8 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

So, you get a great stills camera and a totally mediocre, poorly stabilized and outdated in capability video recorder in one! Talk about video dinosaurs.
The image stabilization on the Olympus E-M5 is actually so good you can shoot video one handed while driving on a
curvy mountain road as well as when standing:
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post #9 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

The image stabilization on the Olympus E-M5 is actually so good you can shoot video one handed while driving on a
curvy mountain road as well as when standing:

That is *digital stabilization*, so however stable, it is visibly degraded video. This is a dead horse. Too bad.
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post #10 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

That is *digital stabilization*, so however stable, it is visibly degraded video.
What quality of the video is degraded? In other words, if I turn the stabilization off and shoot with a tripod, what quality of the video will improve?
http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/em5/feature/04/
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post #11 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

What quality of the video is degraded? In other words, if I turn the stabilization off and shoot with a tripod, what quality of the video will improve?
http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/em5/feature/04/

The 5-axis system you keep pointing to is NOT used in video mode. It is irrelevant to video and thus to this forum. Are you denying that? If not, why are you again providing a link to the 5-axis system? It is ok if you did not know this, but now you do.

So, turn the digital stabilization off and shoot and see. You are flogging this camera (misleadingly) based on false claims. We are just correcting what you are saying. No one thinks that digital stabilization does not degrade pictures or video (why doesn't Olympus just use it for stills?).

The superior Sony BOSS is purely optical/mechanical and works for video with no perceptible video quality loss. It has the best stabilization of any camera/camcorder for video.
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post #12 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The 5-axis system you keep pointing to is NOT used in video mode. It is irrelevant to video and thus to this forum. Are you denying that?.
Where did you read the E-M5's incredibly effective 5-axis image stabilization system is NOT used in video mode? According to cameralabs.com: http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Olympus_OM-D_E-M5/

“The stabilisation system in the OM-D E-M5 adds three more planes to the equation; as well as horizontal and vertical movement it corrects for roll, pitch and yaw rotational movements. The stabiliser has three modes. Mode 1 is the full works, 5-axis stabilisation, Modes 2 and 3 are confined to a single axis for horizontal and vertical panning respectively and you can turn the stabilisation off for when the camera is mounted on a tripod."

"For movie shooting, the E-M5's stabilisation has only two modes, on and off, regardless of the mode setting. The digital movie stabilisation used on PEN models which suffered from noticeable wobbling and shimmering artifacts has been dropped and the E-M5 uses the same sensor-shift system as for stills. This system works very well with none of the distracting wobbling which can spoil stabilised footage shot with the PENs. Combined with the motorised zoom option on the 12-50mm kit zoom it makes the OM-D E-M5 one of the most capable compact system video cameras.”
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post #13 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

The Olympus E-M5 ($719 with 14-42mm kit lens) has better image stablization that any camcorder ...
Sub $1,000 consumer grade camcorders are kinda like dinosaurs; i.e. slowly headed toward extinction because their video quality is not better than a still camera and their still image quality is worse.

I bought the EM 5 for my wife a few months ago as a birthday gift and it is indeed a great camera for stills. She has to fight me for it at times since I love that little camera.
But I would not compare it to my old Sony PJ710 camcorder with BOSS. The physical image stabilization on the Sony is much better and video quality is also very good.
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post #14 of 39 Old 04-23-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jared717 View Post

I am looking to pick up a Camcorder that will record in 1080P. I am very new to the camera world, so I am not very knowledgeable in this area. I would like to keep it under $800, closer to $500 would be great. It will mainly be used to record family get togethers and maybe a few sporting events. Again any help and guidance on this would be appreciated.

For your reference- if you are checking out the Sony BOSS camcorder systems here is a shameless plug for an old thread of mine discussing the pros and cons as well as vids. showing what it can do:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1429201/the-official-sony-pj710-pj760-pj780-pj790-owners-thread

All the older and newer Sony Balanced Optical Steady Shot systems are great- but you have to know how to use it properly in order to get max benefits.
It will not cure all your unpredictable motion ills, but it does a great job for steady predictable motion. Just don't try to zoom all the way and expect it to work, this will throw it off.

Rob
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post #15 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

That is *digital stabilization*, so however stable, it is visibly degraded video. This is a dead horse. Too bad.
The video image stabilization of some Olympus models like the E-M5, E-M1 and E-P5 is so outstanding that some Panasonic GX7 and G6 owners are jumping ship to Olympus:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/1127/jrd3.jpg
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post #16 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

The video image stabilization of some Olympus models like the E-M5, E-M1 and E-P5 is so outstanding that some Panasonic GX7 and G6 owners are jumping ship to Olympus:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/1127/jrd3.jpg

Sure, the GX6 and GX7 have NO image stabilization in-camera in video mode. So you are right, the Olympus digital stabilization is better than none. Wow!

But the optical (power) stabilization in the Lumix lenses beats the in-body digital stabilization in the Olympus in video, as does just about every Panasonic and Sony camcorder. When will you stop flogging this? Nice try, but you cannot mislead here because we actually know what is what.
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post #17 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 03:07 PM
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Sure,.....the GX7 have NO image stabilization in-camera.

My GX7 is supposed to have it. It is in the menu and the owners manual. My three Panasonic lenses have it too so I have no idea how well the in camera stabilization works.
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post #18 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 03:57 PM
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My GX7 is supposed to have it. It is in the menu and the owners manual. My three Panasonic lenses have it too so I have no idea how well the in camera stabilization works.

In-camera stabilization does not work in video. That is the whole point. In-camera stabilization does not work for video. For the Olympus, 5-axis stabilization does not work for video. Only lousy digital stabilization, like on cellphones.
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post #19 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 05:40 PM
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For the Olympus, 5-axis stabilization does not work for video. Only lousy digital stabilization, like on cellphones.
Mark, so far you have not provided a link to an authoritative source that backs that claim up. From what I have read, the Olympus E-M5 5-axis stabilization is a fully mechanical in body mechanism that has a motor which you can hear as a whirring noise whenever you turn the camera on. When you press the video record button the whirring noise is still present which means the fully mechanical 5-axis mechanism is still operating. I havn't read any camera review that says the E-M5 employs digital stabilization during video recording.
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post #20 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 09:01 PM
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The Olympus E-M5 ($719 with 14-42mm kit lens) has better image stablization that any camcorder, it's viewfinder is vastly better, it's video colors richer and it's small and compact: http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/outlet/reconditioned-cameras/e-m5-with-m-zuiko-digital-14-42mm-ii-r-black-reconditioned.html So you get a first class interchangeable lens still image camera plus a 1080p/30 frames per second video camera all in one. The video of the E-M5 is so stable it's like you're shooting with the camera on a tripod.

Sub $1,000 consumer grade camcorders are kinda like dinosaurs; i.e. slowly headed toward extinction because their video quality is not better than a still camera and their still image quality is worse.

According to the specifications, the camera shoots 1080i60, not 1080p30. It does not shoot progressive video at all, so you have to deal with the evils of interlacing. Maximum bit rate is 20 mbps, which is primitive by todays standards.

Most camcorders in that price range have good stabilization.

I expect that modern camcorders in that price range will knock the socks of the E-M5 when it comes to video quality.

The camera is designed primarily for stills, not video.
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post #21 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 10:27 PM
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According to the specifications, the camera shoots 1080i60, not 1080p30. It does not shoot progressive video at all, so you have to deal with the evils of interlacing.

According to dpreview http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusem5/14

"The E-M5 can capture 1080i60 video from 30p sensor output - a process called progressive segmented frame, that means it can be edited as if it were 30p footage."

So there are no "evils of interlacing" issues to deal with.

According to imaging-resource.com http://imageshack.com/a/img843/430/r31j.jpg the E-M5 delivers:

"Very crisp video, particularly in Full HD H.264 recording" "Virtually zero rolling shutter artifacts"
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post #22 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 10:32 PM
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Interlaced video is interlaced video.
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post #23 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 10:36 PM
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For the Olympus, 5-axis stabilization does not work for video. Only lousy digital stabilization, like on cellphones.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusem5/14
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post #24 of 39 Old 04-24-2014, 10:47 PM
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Read here what EOSHD has to say about the E-M5's successor, which is relevant, since there is also comment about the E-M5's shortcomings. Basically what they say is the same thing I told you - a good stills camera, but inadequate in video.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/11115/new-olympus-e-m1-with-moire-reduction-but-no-24p

Let me quote:
Quote:
Olympus make great stills cameras but are losing customers interested in video. For the third camera in succession they’ve failed to capitalise on a unique position offering the best image stabilisation on any interchangeable lens camera that shoots video! It is doubtful they even realise they do.
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post #25 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 12:03 AM
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Read here what EOSHD has to say about the E-M5's successor, which is relevant, since there is also comment about the E-M5's shortcomings. Basically what they say is the same thing I told you - a good stills camera, but inadequate in video. http://www.eoshd.com/content/11115/new-olympus-e-m1-with-moire-reduction-but-no-24p
And yet there are Panasonic G6 and GX7 owners who are ditching those video oriented models for the rock steady hand held image stabilization of the E-M5 and E-M1 (using any lens) even though the G6 and GX7 offer more recording modes (e.g. 24p and 60p) and higher recording bitrates http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img845/1127/jrd3.jpg
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post #26 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 12:19 AM
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A lot of Panasonic camcorders have 5 axis stabilization systems but I don't think the ones on Olympus cameras come close. Still, the Sony Balanced Optical stabilizer does seam to be the best you can get out of any stabilizer. It would have been incredible if Sony was able to put that into the AX100 camcorder but at this time, Sony probably couldn't make it workable for a 1" chip. Maybe the next model.

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post #27 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 12:27 AM
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A lot of Panasonic camcorders have 5 axis stabilization systems but I don't think the ones on Olympus cameras come close.

Wow What a discussion. I often ride on the local miniature railways with my Grandson - these can be rough rides. I can vouch for the Panasonic OIS system used on both my V700 and V750 - for me you can keep Sony and their wobbly lens, Panasonic OIS every time.

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post #28 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 04:14 AM
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And yet there are Panasonic G6 and GX7 owners who are ditching those video oriented models ......
Not me! In fact, only a couple weeks ago I got a new 14-140 lens for my four month old GX7.
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post #29 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 08:56 AM
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The key advantages for video of the Olympus EM5:

1. The built-in stabilizer (mechanical) - which does work for video, unlike the Olympus predecessors and the Panasonic GX7 (my apologizes for reading a wrong review) and is quite good. This means that you can buy relatively inexpensive excellent (and smaller) lenses because they do not need to have built-in stabilization.

2. Excellent color.
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post #30 of 39 Old 04-25-2014, 09:17 AM
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Hi
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

Interlaced video is interlaced video.

Not correct, it can be progressive.

60i holding Progressive Segmented Frame footage means it is progressive and not interlaced. Progressive footage carried as PsF has been used for decades to carry progressive footage over various broadcast systems, as being 60i PsF it guarantees that throughout the broadcast chain it isn't going to cause a problem or inadvertently be degraded.

What we see on our TVs from 30p carried as 60i PsF is definitely progressive footage without any degradation or de-interlacing required. Full details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_frame

Regards

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