Mid Range / Semi pro video camera for sports analysis - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 06-09-2014, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Having recently started providing performance analysis for a rugby club, I now want to upgrade my sony camcorder that I use. I was thinking of a price around £500/600 would suffice but looking at some semi-pro cameras (Sony HXR / HVR and canon xa20 for example) they are coming in over £1000. Is there a mid-range video camera that would do the job admirably??

 

I need an audio input for a wireless mic for the ref but other than that, I just want to place on the tripod and shoot. Not too bothered about the tech-y bits other than the audio and then to be able to download it into my analysis software. 

 

Is £600 unreasonable ?

 

Any advice would be greatly received as I have little experience on the technical sides of camera work. 

 

cheers

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post #2 of 18 Old 06-09-2014, 05:35 PM
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The Panasonic V750 will be under your price range and does include a mic and headphone jack.
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post #3 of 18 Old 06-09-2014, 10:16 PM
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I would go with the HC-V750 too. You also have a slow motion feature designed for sports analysis in the spec. The camera is a good performer and has a 20x optical plus 50x intelligent zoom (perfect picture) which should cover a rugby field without problem. The OIS is good too but you may not need that with a decent tripod.

 

A word about the mic input on the Panasonic cameras. They have a stereo input so, for a wireless receiver, you will need a mono to stereo adapter. The cameras do not like heavy combinations of plugs and adapters plugged straight into the camera as the socket is mounted on a circuit board and the bending moment can cause connection problems. I have bought a short (0.5m) extension lead which I use with the mono/stereo adapter one end and the plug into the camera taped to my tripod to carry the weight.

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post #4 of 18 Old 06-10-2014, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks very much for the replies!

 

I'll take a look at V750 - and hopefully be using it very soon!

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post #5 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 05:19 AM
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What sports?
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post #6 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Primarily rugby but as a freelance I will also be looking at football/hockey/netball/cricket and also individual sports such as swimming/tennis and athletics
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post #7 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 05:53 AM
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60 fps (or 50 fps) Progressive and Interlaced -

I do not know much about this area and my information is probably dated,

I read for sports that TV broadcasts were often using 60p 720. (Or 50p ? in countries with 50 Hz electrical power). That may be dated information as things tend to improve in resolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

We've had 720p running at 60 progressive frames per second since the first ATSC standard.

Anyhow, look into this issue and in any case get 60progressive fps. With 60p fps you have a frame every 1/60 second and can display better quality stop action single frames of what is going on.

I do not know but would expect that 60interlaced fps would display a single frame with less resolution - a field of interlaced video with half the horizontal lines. ? Search: interlaced progressive video Stay away from interlaced.
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post #8 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 06:03 AM
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Lighting Issues - Indoors vs Outdoors, Shutter Speed & Motion Blur

http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2033#p2033

It is nice for stop-action single-frame to have a fast shutter speed so that the motion blur is minimized. On the other hand, it is considered more natural appearing playing videos to have a slower shutter speed. Some motion blur makes videos look 'more natural'. Give this some thought as you may want to be able to control shutter speed especially to minimize motion blur and show single frames.

Outdoor direct sunlight has very roughly 100X the light levels of indoor locations. With outdoor light levels you have many options and the camera's automatic exposure control may select a very fast shutter speed. Indoors it is difficult to avoid motion blur even with manual exposure control. But manual exposure control is probably going to produce a video with minimal motion blur for the given lighting.

This frame, from a low resolution high speed video, has small motion blur so that the important things can be seen. The shutter speed was minimized for the existing light levels.



Consider if the video camera has manual exposure control so that the shutter speed can be set as fast as possible to minimize motion blur.
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post #9 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 09:10 PM
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I think you will find that the Panasonic HC-V750 has all that is required.
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-11-2014, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post
60 fps (or 50 fps)
I read for sports that TV broadcasts were often using 60p 720. (Or 50p ? in countries with 50 Hz electrical power). That may be dated information as things tend to improve in resolution.
No, they haven't for progressive. The ATSC standard is locked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post
I do not know but would expect that 60interlaced fps would display a single frame with less resolution - a field of interlaced video with half the horizontal lines. ? Search: interlaced progressive video Stay away from interlaced.

What has changed is deinterlacing. Displays aren't stupid CRTs any more. A typical progressive display will deinterlace using information from three or more previous deinterlaced frames and will use the next field only as information to how to alter the next frame. They have gotten extremely intelligent and it's next to impossible to notice any interlacing artifacts these days.

Additionally, motion with shutter speeds for 60 frames per second for video induce a lot of motion blur so there is actually little information retained in these areas. You can freeze a frame but you'll still see blur in either video format.

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post #11 of 18 Old 06-12-2014, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post
..............................
Additionally, motion with shutter speeds for 60 frames per second for video induce a lot of motion blur so there is actually little information retained in these areas. You can freeze a frame but you'll still see blur in either video format.
As far as I know there is no "shutter speed for" 60p fps. It could be set manually or by an automatic exposure control that could select faster shutter speeds for higher light levels.

I have an AIPTEK Action HD camera (purchased 2008) that has an automatic exposure control that was optimized to minimize motion blur. It was advertized for sports action. It does a nice job videoing a tennis match. I especially like the fact that the stop action has little motion blur and allows some 60 fps stroke analysis. Now many cameras and smartphones have fast shutters in high light levels.

Frame from AIPTEK, 60p fps 720. (There is more motion blur in side views of serves.)


AIPTEK side view of a backhand close up.
https://vimeo.com/46427230
Racket head bending after impact is from Jello Effect distortion.
For single frame on Vimeo hold SHIFT KEY & use right or left ARROW KEYS.

The shutter speed that an automatic exposure control selects will depend on the speed of the lens. Therefore the setting of the zoom lens will have a direct affect on shutter speed. The OP should consider this factor, as close-ups using telephoto will have more motion blur than when using wide angle zoom settings. Is he on the sidelines or in the stands? etc.

I like fast shutter speeds for single frame analysis or slowed playback. But if the OP's priority is mostly for playback at 30 fps he may prefer the amount of motion blur usually recommended for 30 fps playback. The OP should have a 60p fps capability and research how the shutter speed is set for cameras that he is considering. Find Youtube and Vimeo videos that display the motion blur in direct sunlight, skylight and indoors.

Last edited by Chas Tennis; 06-12-2014 at 08:33 AM.
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post #12 of 18 Old 06-12-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Tennis View Post
As far as I know there is no "shutter speed for" 60p fps.
I said "shutter speeds". Plural.

There is a range of shutter speeds which will acceptably reproduce motion. For 60 fps 1/60th will work but some feel that's too blurry so they prefer 1/100-1/120th.

If the shutter speed is too fast, you end up with choppy strobing motion which will look like an old cartoon. You may find this acceptable but it's not in television broadcasting and it will bother most people. High shutter speeds are sometimes used as a special effect in short action sequences to make them more disturbing.

You can see what kind of blur is typically found by simply stepping through the frames of any television broadcast with motion, progressive, interlaced, it doesn't matter. You'll see that every frame has a lot of motion blur because that reproduces motion the best..

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post #13 of 18 Old 06-12-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisoconnr View Post
Having recently started providing performance analysis for a rugby club, ...................................... Not too bothered about the tech-y bits other than the audio and then to be able to download it into my analysis software.
......................................
The OP can decide for his application whether he wants to emphasize more attractive 30 fps playback or frames with less motion blur for more accurate analysis of locations. ? He also refers to some software that may have requirements.
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post #14 of 18 Old 06-12-2014, 09:21 AM
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Do they play rugby in lands where 30 fps is common? I suggest 25 fps may be more relevant.
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post #15 of 18 Old 06-12-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terfyn View Post
Do they play rugby in lands where 30 fps is common? I suggest 25 fps may be more relevant.
Rugby? They certainly do. But for £s it must be the UK and 50 Hz.
Scowl misled me.......

OP should consider same issues for 50 fps .........

(I do mostly 240 fps, shutter speed - 1/10,000 sec and 448X336 for tennis stroke analyses.)
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post #16 of 18 Old 06-14-2014, 09:46 PM
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i have used my Sony HDR-PJ710v (the CX710, 760, 790 are all basically the same as well)

They have relatively large sensors for god low lights, amazing OIS stabilization, a LANC port, mic input shoot at 60p or a high speed low res buffer mode as well.

I am a soccer coach and record all our games with the CX430v (smaller sensor) and the 710v. They do great.

here are some examples of my sports analysis and highlights

Softball:

Soccer

Slow Motion
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post #17 of 18 Old 06-17-2014, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all that people. It's given me a good background into what I need.
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post #18 of 18 Old 06-17-2014, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post
No, they haven't for progressive. The ATSC standard is locked.
I am not sure what you wanted to say. They use 720p60 for broadcast. I believe they use 720p50 in former PAL land too, although there they seem to prefer 1080i25.
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