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4K Sony FDR-AX33 thread

61K views 319 replies 70 participants last post by  Bejoy 
#1 ·
Since there will be many posts for the new 4K Sony FDR-AX33 with 4K sample videos I started it's own thread.
https://vimeo.com/116142485

Well, let me get strait to the point. It never happened. This camera is NOT aimed for the serious shooter. My attempt to shoot with it “a real life story” ended up after couple of hours. The reason is simple. You can not be fully creative and control every (basic) aspect of the camera functions. Instead, the camera will “control you”. There is absolutely no way of dialling Iris, shutter and gain to manual position at the same time. Just when you got one right, the other will automatically “jump” into “auto mode”.
Before I get to hear “what can you expect from an under $1000 product?”, let me explain… If it is an entry level product, then don’t include features which are there for what seems to be marketing purposes only. “Zebra” (besides living happily in protected safaris), is a feature which aimed to help the advanced shooter to properly expose his/her video. What sense there is to include such a feature if you simply can not control your exposure manually anyway? While iris CAN be controlled manually, Sony’s “exposure” feature kicks in automatically, blocking you from achieving proper accurate results. (“Exposure” is Sony’s feature that enables you to control the total EV. The camera may change gain, F No. or shutter speed automatically).
Not being able to conduct my original shooting idea, I ended up taking few sample shots which were all done in 4K 100Mbps 25p, “intelligent auto” mode . I was also testing the “Balanced Optical SteadyShot” (working very nice) and “lowlight capability” (less then satisfactory), but those shots did not make it to the final video above.
Despite of all the written above, there are some positive points in favour of Sony’s FDR AX33. (which led me to think that if Sony wanted, they could have given us a totally different level of productivity from this little camera).
Here is a short list of what I liked:
-Good autofocus in video mode
-Good Balanced Optical SteadyShot
-Nice smooth “change focus” possibility by pressing the accurate touch screen
-The ability to achieve smooth slow in/out zoom while using the variable rocker
-Long lasting battery
-Clever hidden USB cable for external charging
-Sony’s professional XLR attachment (XLR-K2M) can be attached and be used for greater audio flexibility
-XAVC-S codec
-24/25p switchable
-Mic in and manual audio control
-Headphone jack
-“Quick camera start-up” by pulling the EVF out
-“Build in” projector which guaranty to fascinate your little kids
What could be (much) improved:
-Less the satisfactory lowlight video quality
-“In camera” charging
-Low quality EVF
-EVF diopter is poorly placed on the right hand side. Almost after very time of pulling the the EVF out, new eye focusing adjustment need to be done.
-Limited dynamic range
-Severe rolling shutter
-Very strong chromatic aberration
-No total manual control
-Information will disappear very quickly from the LCD screen.
-Confusing menu structure
Summery:
For the occasional parents who just bought a new shiny 4K TV and wants to have the latest modestly priced 4K handycam, this camcorder might be the solution. When doing so, please take in account that this camcorder is capable of producing decent picture quality only in properly lit locations.
http://www.cinema5d.com/exclusive-sony-fdrax33-4k-handycam/
 
#2 ·
Exposing on Sony camcorders

This thread gets off to a bad start, quoting a review from someone who does not know how to work the camera. Here is what he says: "“Zebra” (besides living happily in protected safaris), is a feature which [sic] aimed to help the advanced shooter to properly expose his/her video. What sense there is to include such a feature if you simply can not control your exposure manually anyway? While iris CAN be controlled manually, Sony’s “exposure” feature kicks in automatically, blocking you from achieving proper accurate results. (“Exposure” is Sony’s feature that enables you to control the total EV. The camera may change gain, F No. or shutter speed automatically)."


The preferred shooting mode in video is shutter priority. So, say, for 4k30p you set the shutter manually to 1/60th. Then the camera will automatically control exposure. But then how can the user control exposure in that mode? Not with the "Exposure" control, which will do what the reviewer says, but with AE shift. AE Shift is like EV control, so you can get exactly the exposure you want with the shutter still fixed. Now, you cannot tell the camera how to change exposure (iris or gain), but it will always be iris until opening up the lens does not yield enough light for the exposure YOU want, so that upping the gain is necessary. What if you want more control over iris? then you use the ND filters.


So, manual shutter and AE shift provides almost all the control you need, and the zebras aid you in preventing overexposure. It is exactly the same as on the "Pro" AX100.
 
#3 ·
"AE shift" a.k.a. "EV correction" allows a user to affect automatic exposure making it darker or brighter than the camera thinks it should be. But it does not lock the exposure, so when you move the camera the overall exposure will change if the scene lightning changes.

"Exposure" on the other hand will lock overall exposure. So, these are two different mechanisms to control exposure.

I remember that on the HDR-HC1 one could lock shutter speed, then use "Exposure" to adjust overall exposure of the scene, the camera would change aperture and gain, and the algorithm it used was completely predictable: increasing exposure meant opening diaphragm all the way, then adding gain. Decreasing exposure meant reducing gain, then closing diaphragm to F4, then engage built-in graduated ND filter which was about 2.5 stops worth, then when the filter was completely engaged, it would continue closing diaphragm. So using fixed shutter speed together with "Exposure" amounted to classic shutter priority mode. I even had a strip of paper with aperture values affixed to the LCD screen. There were 24 positions total, each position was half the stop, no matter which means to achieve it were used, for example for gain half a stop is 3dB.

I haven't bothered figuring out the algorithm for aperture priority mode on the HC1.

Older Canon camcorders worked similarly, only they did not have a fixed 24 position scale, but a moving scale, because they used 1/4-stop adjustments, and fitting them all into one fixed scale was not possible considering LCD size and resolution.

Modern Sony camcorders work differently: either you set, say, shutter speed and the camera will adjust overall exposure automatically - yes, you can affect this adjustment with AE Shift, but you cannot lock overall exposure - or you can lock exposure with "Exposure" setting but you never know which settings for shutter speed, aperture and gain the camera would use. I guess selecting a scene mode should affect this, like selecting portrait mode probably would favor aperture, selecting sports mode would favor fast shutter speed, but I don't know for sure.
 
#4 ·
"AE shift" a.k.a. "EV correction" allows a user to affect automatic exposure making it darker or brighter than the camera thinks it should be. But it does not lock the exposure, so when you move the camera the overall exposure will change if the scene lightning changes.

"Exposure" on the other hand will lock overall exposure. So, these are two different mechanisms to control exposure.

I remember that on the HDR-HC1 one could lock shutter speed, then use "Exposure" to adjust overall exposure of the scene, the camera would change aperture and gain, and the algorithm it used was completely predictable: increasing exposure meant opening diaphragm all the way, then adding gain. Decreasing exposure meant reducing gain, then closing diaphragm to F4, then engage built-in graduated ND filter which was about 2.5 stops worth, then when the filter was completely engaged, it would continue closing diaphragm. So using fixed shutter speed together with "Exposure" amounted to classic shutter priority mode. I even had a strip of paper with aperture values affixed to the LCD screen. There were 24 positions total, each position was half the stop, no matter which means to achieve it were used, for example for gain half a stop is 3dB.

I haven't bothered figuring out the algorithm for aperture priority mode on the HC1.

Older Canon camcorders worked similarly, only they did not have a fixed 24 position scale, but a moving scale, because they used 1/4-stop adjustments, and fitting them all into one fixed scale was not possible considering LCD size and resolution.

Modern Sony camcorders work differently: either you set, say, shutter speed and the camera will adjust overall exposure automatically - yes, you can affect this adjustment with AE Shift, but you cannot lock overall exposure - or you can lock exposure with "Exposure" setting but you never know which settings for shutter speed, aperture and gain the camera would use. I guess selecting a scene mode should affect this, like selecting portrait mode probably would favor aperture, selecting sports mode would favor fast shutter speed, but I don't know for sure.

This is a great elucidation of the two modes. But, in almost all situations the light does not change while you are shooting a clip. Then, shutter priority mode plus AE Shift (with appropriate ND) gives you all the control you need - the proper shutter speed and the exposure you want (set in advance). The exposure is effectively locked as long as the light is not changed.


Even if the light changes while shooting a clip, it is not obvious why you would not want the camera to adjust exposure (as it would in shutter priority mode). For example, if the sun disappeared behind a cloud, a fixed exposure would then result in underexposure, while in shutter priority mode the exposure would adjust so as to avoid that (and you can further adjust with the AE Shift dial if you wanted). Similarly, if while following a subject he or she goes from sun to shade or even indoors, why would you not want the camera to adjust exposure to avoid underexposure? Otherwise, suddenly you cannot see the subject. An active car ride where the car goes in and out of tunnels is another example of changing light; and, again, why would you want to lock exposure? Parts of the clip would either be very overexposed or very underexposed with fixed exposure.
 
#6 ·
This looks like it might replace my TM900. It's got everything I need, including the Zebra's, at a good price. No lens threads though for filters? I wonder why they eliminated the projector from the unit, like the prototype. It seems to have a big battery as well. Look at the video below and see how far that battery sticks out. Seems like it might slightly interfere with using the evf. Maybe the evf is not extended all the way?

 
#10 ·
This looks like it might replace my TM900. It's got everything I need, including the Zebra's, at a good price. No lens threads though for filters? I wonder why they eliminated the projector from the unit, like the prototype. It seems to have a big battery as well. Look at the video below and see how far that battery sticks out. Seems like it might slightly interfere with using the evf. Maybe the evf is not extended all the way?
lens thread is 52mm see specification


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1109387-REG/sony_hdr_ax33v_4k_ultra_hd.html


one with projector also available


sony axp33 (uk sony not us sony)


http://presscentre.sony.eu/pressrel...with-compact-new-handycam-r-from-sony-1103109
 
#8 · (Edited)
> when you shift ev or "AE" you see what happens to the f stop –
> it is displayed in the viewfinder (if you want) in real time as you adjust ev.
> So you know perfectly well what the exposure is when using ev control.

Are you suggesting that a user of this camera is smart enough to figure out strength of an ND filter by looking at f-stop number and consequently to use three controls: shutter speed, AE shift and an ND filter, but not smart enough to use two controls: shutter speed and Exposure?

We may argue whether a security video can look professional, but this was not what I had in mind, neither sports or, say, Formula One racing. OTOH, talking about racing, to me automatic exposure works more like a naked eye when an F1 car exits the dark tunnel in Monaco then when one shoots across a street and then a bus passes between the shooter and the subject.

If you like autoexposure this is ok. But not offering proper controls on a $1K camera is idiocy. I can understand Sony's thinking: people are so ADHD'd that they may forget to reset shutter speed while using Exposure, which may cause unwanted results. The best solution for those people is a big "FULL AUTO" button, or a cell phone camera.
 
#9 ·
We may argue whether a security video can look professional, but this was not what I had in mind, neither sports or, say, Formula One racing. OTOH, talking about racing, to me automatic exposure works more like a naked eye when an F1 car exits the dark tunnel in Monaco then when one shoots across a street and then a bus passes between the shooter and the subject.

If you like autoexposure this is ok. But not offering proper controls on a $1K camera is idiocy. I can understand Sony's thinking: people are so ADHD'd that they may forget to reset shutter speed while using Exposure, which may cause unwanted results. The best solution for those people is a big "FULL AUTO" button, or a cell phone camera.

See, I am not "liking" autoexposure: I am just pointing out that in most situations the difference between auto and fixed exposure is nothing, and in some situations autoexposure is actually desirable.


I agree with you that the bus crossing in front of a subject altering the exposure ruins the shot. And if you can't re-shoot you are screwed. And it is precisely this problem (the bus passing in front) that leads me to fix focus (rather than use auto focus), because in auto focus that bus will also change the focus to the bus. But how many times does a bus (or a pedestrian or a cellphone-shooting tourist) interfere with a once-in-a lifetime shot? And what if the sun disappears while you are shooting that subject? It is not even obvious in run and gun what method is best.


Having the full, fixed exposure is obviously desirable as an option (no one is arguing the contrary), but I just thought that this lack was blown way out of proportion in the "review" given most situations, and was also misleading about what can and cannot be done without it.
 
#14 ·
In the Vimeo clip shown in the first post, the CAs are absolutely horrible. The saving grace is that those are likely to appear, or be very noticeable in the tele range as all shots in the wider range look fine. Seems like Sony has continued using the lens system of the PJ7xx series or the NX30x series, which is 10x optical zoom and starting at around 26mm (35mm equivalent FoV). Those are models that also suffer from noticeable CAs at the tele ends.

The poster however made clear his camera was a pre-production unit. Let's hope the production ones do better but I won't hold my breath.
 
#15 ·
Imo not having proper manual exposure is a 100% dealbreaker for anything above a $100 camera.
Pretty much the only time the light doesn't change in a clip is static shots of dead objects outside on a non or totally cloudy day (or controlled lighting).

It's just about as manual as AF or AWB. Shame since it could have been a cool little camera.
I shoot alot of behind the scenes with my phone when I want it in 4k.
It's anoying not having manual controls and a zoom.
This could have been the option but not in its current form.

And that's probably what I will say when people ask my advice on it, "might as well use your phone".
 
#17 · (Edited)
Dealbreakers and ghostbusters

"Pretty much the only time the light doesn't change in a clip is static shots of dead objects outside on a non or totally cloudy day (or controlled lighting)."


I think this is factually untrue, but more importantly irrelevant. Autoexposure on most cameras does not react to minute changes in light. For small interval shots, unless the sun moves behind the cloud or the camera moves a lot, there is effectively no change in exposure when autoexposure is used. Following a moving object across different lighting is a challenge, but it is not obvious locked exposure is ideal for this anyway.


I would guess most videos that we see posted are shot with autoexposure (most in shutter-priority mode), and most do not suffer from ugly changes in exposure. And whether the objects are dead or alive does not affect the light (although zombies and maybe ghosts require different color grading).


Having the option of manual exposure is obviously good, but again its lack is not obviously dramatically awful as has been made out.


I do love hearing about people's dealbreakers (no mic in! no articulating screen! no touch screen! I hate touch screens! no viewfinder! no power zoom! no manual zoom! no focus ring around the lens! no 60p! no 24p! no PAL/NTSC switch! 29-minute limit! no headphone jack! no flash! no manual auto! it's ugly! it's not pocketable! wrong form factor!). Each person has his or her own, but that does not mean everyone need share it.
 
#19 ·
"Pretty much the only time the light doesn't change in a clip is static shots of dead objects outside on a non or totally cloudy day (or controlled lighting)."


I think this is factually untrue, but more importantly irrelevant.
I think the lack of proper manual exposure is an important aspect to an expensive video camera. And no its not factually untrue.
Take your LX100 and make a pan, any pan, any where in the world.
Do you see the histogram moving?
Yes, thats the exposure changing. It changes every second you move a camera accept in total darkness.

Minimal changes that hardly show up sure, but move the camera from a darker corner of a room to a brighter or past a window and you can clearly see the exposure change during recording.
IMO thats about as pleasant to watch as focus hunting and for a thousand clams I would like to be without it.

I get that some don't care that much and are more than fine with Auto. Good. But we still should discuss the lack of it in such an expensive camera so people coming here for info gets the heads up and can make the call for them self.
 
#21 ·
One approach with the LX100 and similar cameras, when using AE and anticipating a change in lighting during a shot, is somewhat of a deviation from how we'd typically set the camera.

Cameras like the LX are not as subtle as a camcorder when exposure is changing. A stepped aperture change can clearly be seen and can easily ruin a shot. If I'm expecting a significant change in exposure during a shot (that doesn't happen frequently) rather than locking the shutter at 1/60, I simply lock aperture and let the shutter speed ride. That results in a less jarring look than the stepped iris change and is just as effective in keeping exposure on target.
 
#24 ·
The lens specifications are ultra similar to that of the Sony HDR-PJ790. That alone tells you the chip size is closer to the PJ790's then the AX100's. Besides, the AX100's price would have took a gigantic nose dive if the AX33 had a 1" chip together with it's advanced stabilizer and smaller size. Sony wouldn't be able to keep up with demand and would probably be loosing money for each unit sold.
 
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#27 ·
I spent quite a bit of time with the units at CES and it's going to suit the needs of many who need help with stabilized 4K that is just going to YouTube. One of the cool features I did like a lot was a the ability to control up to five separate cameras over wifi with timecode for editing later. They had it demoed with a splash proof 4K wide angle pocket cam. I do a lot of hand held shooting and used the AX100 last year for some 4K work and will be looking forward to this. The active stabilization seemed a lot smoother with less "wander" than my older HDR PJ790V. I'm personally looking forward to it and will preorder one. I usually shoot 2 cameras with one fixed on the same area and a handheld for YouTube, so this is aimed at people like me.
 

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#29 · (Edited)
If it also has a 1' chip than than answer would have been definitely. Since it has a much smaller chip than what's in the AX100, it wont drop by that much. The AX100 was already at $1,800 before this camcorder got announced. Maybe at most it'll drop by $200 within the next few to several months.
 
#31 ·
One thing that´s quite important for me is the wide angle. I use 24mm or even wider for video very often (Nex5n + Samyang 12mm f2). These Panasonic and Sony 4K camcorders (and almost all other new camcorders) starts at 30mm. I wonder why? Because starting at 24mm is not a problem when it comes to compact cameras and super-zoom cameras.
 
#34 ·
My first reaction in Jan. to the AX33 was to sell the AX100 because of the far superior stabilization and 1" sensor. Changed my mind pretty fast after looking closer at the specs.

And the sample video is awful, absolutely no comparison .

Price of the AX100 , new, is holding up pretty well for a 1 year old camcorder with more competition now.

Eugene
 
#35 · (Edited)
Bill, as the whole optical block inside the AX33 moves during the activation of the BOSS, which is the case for every Sony Handycam model that uses this system, as soon as a lens attachment is mounted the BOSS either has to be turned off or is automatically deactivated by the camera.

The model with BOSS I use is the PJ760VE. The system on the rest works the same.
 
#37 ·
I just watched the linked video in Joe's first post and I'm struck by two things:

* The overall, relative softness of the video
* Considerable purple fringing in many clips. I'm not sure if this is a lens issue, CA or something else, but I found it disturbing

The camera used was a prototype, so perhaps it's too early to draw conclusions.
 
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