Canon EOS-1D X Mark II w/4K 60fps ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #1 of 33 Old 01-29-2016, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Canon EOS-1D X Mark II w/4K 60fps ?

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The EOS-1D X Mark II technical specifications are:
  • 20.2MP CMOS sensor with dynamic range improvement
  • Dual pixel CMOS AF
  • 61-point AF system, expanded range, 41-point cross-type, all of the distance measuring points can be selected
  • At f/8, 61 points can be selected
  • Improved AI AF accuracy and motion tracking Servo AF III +
  • Dual DIGIC6 + processor
  • New mirror drive system that enables high-speed continuous shooting
  • Video 4K 60fps, possible internal recording at CFast2.0T media
  • Continuous shooting up to 16 fps (live view mode)
  • Dual pixel CMOS AF, enables smooth AF with 4K video
  • GPS built-in
  • USB3.0 terminal, HDMI terminal
  • Dust and water resistant
  • Wi-Fi option (WFT-E8)
  • Dimensions: 158mm x 167.6mm x 82.6mm
  • Weight: 1340g
http://photorumors.com/2016/01/29/th...ictures-specs/

I bet it will be 4K 30fps like the new Nikon D5.
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post #2 of 33 Old 01-29-2016, 07:57 AM
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Or it could really do 4K/60p at US$12,000 to replace the aging 1DC whose price has come down to only US$9,000. The dual pixel AF as implemented in the 70D, 7DII and their latest cinema video cameras would be very impressive too even at that price.
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post #3 of 33 Old 01-29-2016, 04:46 PM
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I think that is unlikely with Digic 6 processors. The camera is more likely to have Digic 7.

My guess is 4K at 30 fps.
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post #4 of 33 Old 02-01-2016, 09:36 PM
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They did it!

Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Key Features

•20.2MP full-frame CMOS sensor
•ISO 100-51,200, expandable to 409,600
4K video at 60fps
•Up to 120p frame rate at 1080p
•4K frame grab
•14fps/16 in LiveView mode in RAW or JPG
•2-inch, 1.62 million dot resolution touch-sensitive LCD monitor
•61-point High Density Reticular AF II system w/41 cross-type points
•216-zone, 360k pixel RGB/IR metering sensor
•30-1/8000 sec plus bulb; 1/250 sec X-sync
•CFast 2.0 compatible
•Dual CF Card slots
•Built-in GPS
•Magnesium alloy body, dust- and weather-sealed

http://www.adorama.com/g/new-canon-1...020116CanonNPA
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post #5 of 33 Old 02-01-2016, 10:14 PM
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DCI 4k (4096 x 2160p) / 59.94 fps (800 Mbps) is quite impressive.

Who is this particular spec targeted at? I thought most of the DCI 4k was the 23.98/24p crowd.

I can't wait to see some footage.
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post #6 of 33 Old 02-01-2016, 10:55 PM
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post #7 of 33 Old 02-01-2016, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Key Features

•20.2MP full-frame CMOS sensor
•ISO 100-51,200, expandable to 409,600
4K video at 60fps
•Up to 120p frame rate at 1080p
•4K frame grab
•14fps/16 in LiveView mode in RAW or JPG
•2-inch, 1.62 million dot resolution touch-sensitive LCD monitor
•61-point High Density Reticular AF II system w/41 cross-type points
•216-zone, 360k pixel RGB/IR metering sensor
•30-1/8000 sec plus bulb; 1/250 sec X-sync
•CFast 2.0 compatible
•Dual CF Card slots
•Built-in GPS
•Magnesium alloy body, dust- and weather-sealed

http://www.adorama.com/g/new-canon-1...020116CanonNPA
Using MJPEG format at 800 mbps!
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post #8 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 02:01 AM
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The camera crops to about 8.8M pixels (1:1 readout) out of the 20.2M pixels total at 4K. The listed price is only half the 1DC's original listed and selling price so overall it still looks competitive.

Last edited by P&Struefan; 02-02-2016 at 02:55 AM.
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post #9 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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The biggest upgrade in the camera's video spec is the addition of 4K shooting but, interestingly, this can only be captured using the Motion JPEG format and the wider-than-16:9 DCI 4K aspect ratio (4096 x 2160 pixels). Both of these choices seem odd: the All-I H.264 compression the camera uses for its 1080 footage would be a more efficient choice of codec and the 16:9 UHD flavor of 4K is better suited to certain applications.
However, along with 4K capture, the 1D X II includes tools to grab 8.8MP frames from its 4K files: at which point the decision to save every frame as an individual JPEG makes slightly more sense. Wedding shooters might even use this feature to document receptions in complete silence: despite the 1D X II gaining a continuous silent drive mode like the 5DS/R, it's not all that silent.
The 1D X II also gains a headphone jack, important for monitoring sound levels during video recording.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/067...essions-review

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post #10 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 07:20 AM
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Very impressive. Looking forward to seeing some footage.

Of course this will be a heavy, large monster.

I suspect this will be the beginning of several more 4K60p shooters. I'll bet they'll be smaller, lighter and cheaper.
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post #11 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Look at the first four clueless replies :


They must think EVF is short for external viewfinder ?
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post #12 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
....I suspect this will be the beginning of several more 4K60p shooters. I'll bet they'll be smaller, lighter and cheaper.
It should move pretty fast.

A little personal history...

2008 - I joined this forum
2011 - I bought a $800 Pansonic SDT-750, a version of the TM900, because it could shoot 1080p60. At the time, p60 was not part of AVCHD, so there was a dedicated button.
2012 (or maybe 2013) I bought a Sony HX9V for $350 that was very small and could shoot 1080p60 as part of AVCHD 2.0
2014 - I was given a $800 Panasonic LX100 because it could shoot 4Kp30
2016 - The $6000 DSLR in this thread can shoot 4Kp60, but I won't buy it!

In between those years my DW and I bought a few more cameras, including a tiny $300 Panasonic ZS30 that could shoot 1080p60 with a lot of zoom for our son to shoot school events.

(Prices may be inaccurate due to memory loss!)

On the software side, Premier Element 9 that I bought early in 2011 had to be tricked into editing p60 footage. Version 11 in 2012 knew what AVCHD 2.0 was. Version 13, in 2014, handled 4Kp30 without issue. Version 14, in 2015, claims full 4K support.

The progression of AVCHD announced in 2006 to it's practical end in 2014 took only 8 years. 4Kp30 implementation in cameras was quick by comparison.

I agree with Ken. The next year, two or three years should provide us with several 4Kp60 consumer level choices. There may be so many that it will become almost routine.

Will there be a GX5, LX100 ii, Sony RX100v, etc? Will they all shoot 4Kp60?
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post #13 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 11:57 AM
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It isn't the first 4k60p camera. There are several other professional cameras that can shoot at that frame rate.

The only reason it can shoot at 60p at all is because it does not use hardware encoders. Sony, Panasonic and Samsung could have produced 4k60p cameras in 2014 if they wanted to, because the sensors they use are certainly capable of it (and in Samsung's case, considerably more). The issue with that approach however is that it requires very high bit rates, which adds considerably to cost.

The 1DXM2 uses Digic 6 processors, which can only do HD using hardware encoding. Even Canon's more modern EOS C cameras using the DV5 processor (which is the camcorder version of the Digic 7) require a cooling solution in the form of a fan to be able to do 4K30p. Canon's problem is that the technology used in their processors is years behind those of their competitors, so in order to deliver 4K they have to use clunky solutions such as MJPEG or cooling fans. Right now the processor used in the NX1 is the most powerful available in any consumer or low/med level pro camera. I don't see that changing until 2017 at the earliest (unless Panasonic comes along with a successor to the GH4 this year, perhaps).

Last edited by Tugela; 02-02-2016 at 12:09 PM.
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post #14 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Why MJPEG and at what bitrates? According to Ebrahim’s Canon source the camera’s weather sealed body and lack of fan excluded the use of the more complex XF / H.264 codec of the C300 Mark II. As the 1D X Mark II is built for absolute reliability, overheating must be avoided. If you need 4K H.264 but are willing to suffer 3 minute time limits and regular problems with overheating during a shoot consider the Nikon D5.
The downside of MJPEG is that due to the ‘simple’ encoding it is inefficient. File sizes are enormous but image quality is maintained.
The bitrate for 4K 24/25/30p is 500Mbit/s like the 1D C. The bitrate for 4K 60p is 800Mbit/s. At that data rate a 64GB card fills up in 10 minutes, so 60fps is better kept as an option for short bursts where a mild slow-mo effect will be applied in post.
Crop factors?
Like the Nikon D5 the Canon 1D X Mark II records 4K from a cropped window of the 20MP full frame sensor. Unlike the Nikon D5, the 4K recorded is of the higher resolution digital cinema variety at 4096 pixels wide therefore the crop is a little less severe than the 1.5x Super 35mm window on that camera. The 1D C is a 1.3x crop or APS-H although I have heard it referred to as slightly wider than that or a 1.25x crop whereas the 1D X Mark II is a slightly narrower 1.4x crop due to the higher megapixel count of the 20MP sensor.
There is no full frame 4K option and the camera isn’t Speed Booster compatible.
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/02/all-is-...-ii-video-faq/

My first hybrid still/video superzoom (10-1) camera was the Canon TX1 that I purchased in May 2007 that shot 720p HD video in MJPEG just like my Pentax K-7 DSLR in 2009. It's going to be interesting to see how this 800Mbit/s compares to the NX1's H.265 that is a small fraction of the data rate.
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post #15 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 02:15 PM
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Canon MJPEG from the 1DC was clean, but only 8 bit. You can't do proper HDR with it or any 8 bit cam without banding, no matter how clean it is.

If the NX1 processor scanned fast enough to do 4k60p, it would not have the skew/wobble at 4k30p. No way is it capable of 4k60p.

60p has been tried and never became mainstream. No reason to believe it will ever be. It has its professional uses, like a 2.5:1 slow motion in post.
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post #16 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&Struefan View Post
Or it could really do 4K/60p at US$12,000 to replace the aging 1DC whose price has come down to only US$9,000. The dual pixel AF as implemented in the 70D, 7DII and their latest cinema video cameras would be very impressive too even at that price.
Announced price for the body is $6000

Take responsibility for your own actions...society is not here to look after you...
In other words, if you order coffee, expect it to be hot for christsake!
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post #17 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Canon MJPEG from the 1DC was clean, but only 8 bit. You can't do proper HDR with it or any 8 bit cam without banding, no matter how clean it is.

If the NX1 processor scanned fast enough to do 4k60p, it would not have the skew/wobble at 4k30p. No way is it capable of 4k60p.

60p has been tried and never became mainstream. No reason to believe it will ever be. It has its professional uses, like a 2.5:1 slow motion in post.
The NX1 sensor is capable of doing full sensor reads at 240 fps, in other words 6K240p video. The camera itself has to be doing at least full sensor reads at 120 fps when it does slow motion HD (although the processor likely cannot process all of that data fully, which is why you see artifacts and reduced quality).

There are other sensors commercially available that do full sensor reads at 240 fps as well, the technology is out there and has been for some time. What isn't out there are processors capable of handling the workload required to produce compressed output. Canon are in a sense cheating by skipping the hardware compression step and essentially using sheer bandwidth to accommodate the bit rate required. That only will work if you have very fast storage options at your disposal, so you are not going to see that on consumer cameras for a while.

4K60p has been feasible for years. What has been holding it back has been a combination of processor limitations and the availability of fast storage. Canon clearly have not solved the processor problem, but they do have fast storage and that has allowed them to side step the bottleneck using processor non-intensive codecs. 4K60p with compression is available on professional cameras with more powerful processors and cooling solutions. In those cases they don't require the high speed storage because the processors can cope.

"60p has been tried and never became mainstream. No reason to believe it will ever be." - I am guessing that is why it is the de facto standard on consumer cameras shooting HD - because no one uses it.
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post #18 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 05:36 PM
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Unlike Sony, Canon's first implementation of 1080/60p using Digic 6 in the small sensor Powershot compact cameras was utter crap. I still have that 280HS, 12M-pixel model which does evrything fine up to 1080/30p. The 1080/60p footage (36Mbps vs 24Mbps for 1080/30p) doesn't only suffer from a slight loss of resolution but moire and aliasing also show up everywhere there is a fine line or detail. It is just painful to watch. They seemed to realize then it was a step too far in terms of their technologies at either the sensor, IP or storage pipeline level so 1080/60p only first showed up at the professional level on the C100 Mk2 a couple years ago. They did it right this time around.

4K at 60p is obviously harder but by looking solely at the specs and the sort of camera it is implemented on it should be good. They seem to have done everything to make sure the footage, albeit at 8 bit and no log gamma, comes out right. Limited number of pixels readout, less complex I-frame codec, as fast storage as it takes to ingest the encoded data etc. Of course, the user will have to pay in the reduction of FoV and in higher cost for storage.
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post #19 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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A $675 256GB CFast 2.0 card is only good for 40 minutes !
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post #20 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
Look at the first four clueless replies :


They must think EVF is short for external viewfinder ?
The word 'clueless' comes to mind, Joe.
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post #21 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
It isn't the first 4k60p camera. There are several other professional cameras that can shoot at that frame rate.

The only reason it can shoot at 60p at all is because it does not use hardware encoders. Sony, Panasonic and Samsung could have produced 4k60p cameras in 2014 if they wanted to, because the sensors they use are certainly capable of it (and in Samsung's case, considerably more). The issue with that approach however is that it requires very high bit rates, which adds considerably to cost.

The 1DXM2 uses Digic 6 processors, which can only do HD using hardware encoding. Even Canon's more modern EOS C cameras using the DV5 processor (which is the camcorder version of the Digic 7) require a cooling solution in the form of a fan to be able to do 4K30p. Canon's problem is that the technology used in their processors is years behind those of their competitors, so in order to deliver 4K they have to use clunky solutions such as MJPEG or cooling fans. Right now the processor used in the NX1 is the most powerful available in any consumer or low/med level pro camera. I don't see that changing until 2017 at the earliest (unless Panasonic comes along with a successor to the GH4 this year, perhaps).
Tug, I bet by the end of the year we'll have one or two 4K60p solutions at far more 'consumer friendly' prices & sizes. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if this doesn't happen. An AX200 comes to mind.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Tug, I bet by the end of the year we'll have one or two 4K60p solutions at far more 'consumer friendly' prices & sizes. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if this doesn't happen. An AX200 comes to mind.
I expected GoPro to be first with 4K 60p. After all, they currently have 2.7K at 60 fps on the Hero 4 Black and it is quite nice downrezzed to 1080. And "action cams" really need high frame rates (and GoPro badly needs something new and useful). Maybe the rumored Sony X2000v.

Btw I think the current Sony cameras that can do 4K 30p and 1080 120p could do 2.7k 60p with just a firmware update.
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post #23 of 33 Old 02-02-2016, 08:32 PM
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I believe both the RX100IV and RX10II could do at least 2.7K at 60p as even the specs of the latest cellphone sensors such as the 21.5M pixel and 23M pixel sensors also made by Sony say they can. But Sony probably saw any of the intermediate resolutions such as 2.7K, 1440p etc. and the trade-offs in the framrates they required would just confuse their customers so they decided to stick to HD and 4K.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I expected GoPro to be first with 4K 60p. After all, they currently have 2.7K at 60 fps on the Hero 4 Black and it is quite nice downrezzed to 1080. And "action cams" really need high frame rates (and GoPro badly needs something new and useful).
The GoPro needs something new and useful along the lines of not overheating with the current 4K specs it has before they even think of adding higher frame rates.

Honestly, I would say Canon is in a more dire position to need to put something out with some wow factor.

As far as the Canon, DSLRs have gotten to the point where there's not much inside those large bodies. Just put the biggest possible heat sink in there and have it run to a cooling block mounted under the pop-up flash. When you switch to 4K, the flash can pop up to allow heat to escape. That keeps it cooler without letting dust and moisture in.

Then, don't have an internally mounted battery. You're not going to want that much horsepower without a battery grip, anyway.
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post #25 of 33 Old 02-03-2016, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Tug, I bet by the end of the year we'll have one or two 4K60p solutions at far more 'consumer friendly' prices & sizes. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if this doesn't happen. An AX200 comes to mind.
Maybe. Remember, the processors Sony uses are not as good as Panasonic's. The 2016 consumer cameras from Sony will likely use the same or variants of those used in the 7 and R cameras, so that will be 30p. But, something like an AX200 will probably have a more favourable thermal envelope, so they could get 60p out of it I suppose.

Panasonic are due for another update however, and their new processors may be able to do it without frying.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
At least the guy didn't have to worry about overheating during that shoot...
Ken Ross likes this.
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post #28 of 33 Old 02-07-2016, 03:37 AM
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At least the guy didn't have to worry about overheating during that shoot...
Sadly, he did
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post #29 of 33 Old 02-07-2016, 06:19 AM
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Link to that info?
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post #30 of 33 Old 02-07-2016, 08:39 PM
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You are aware of the concept of a joke right?
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