4K 60p Panasonic GH5 thread - Page 20 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #571 of 644 Old 04-20-2017, 08:54 PM
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post #572 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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C4k VLOG 4:2:2 10bit internal recording here is my latest GH5 video, staring the wonderfull and talented actress Constance Pizon
Shot with GH5 Pre production Camera with Beta Firmware
C4K Vlog 150mb/s 4:2:2 10 Bits
Internal recording on SD Card
All Veydra Mini Primes excepted some few shot of the Bigwheel
No tripod, all handled OIS On and few shots using the Zhiyun-tech #crane #Z1
Cut in #FCPX
Grade in #colorfinale & FilmConvert
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post #573 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 07:30 AM
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Here's another video by the same guy as the one I previously posted. He's certainly having success with his AF, but using very different settings than what I've suggested. It might be fun to try his settings too.

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post #574 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 08:02 AM
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Zooming is good - too bad you can't

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I have no doubt that Sony & Panasonic think that zooming is desired by customers, just look at the gazillion videos posted on YouTube. Many of them just can't get enough of the zooms and I'm surprised they don't wear out their rocker switches. These same customers also love whip pans, fast zooms and all the other nauseating things one can do to mess up a a video. Dramamine is a must to watch these...at least for me.

I'm simply saying that in most modern polished productions, you just don't see a lot of zooming during a shot. It was very common years ago (just watch old TV shows...in-out-in-out), but not so much these days. The dissolve I spoke of is certainly not 'gimmicky'. If you don't like the dissolve, you can cut too from wide to tight or vice versa. Nothing gimmicky there either. The Videomaker article I linked on 5 reasons not to zoom, I believe was right on target. Videomaker is certainly not alone in it's philosophy. And of course you wouldn't see that as a 'feature' of a camera, it's something you do in editing.

The bottom line is we do what we each think looks the best. If people like to zoom, so be it. If they like to do whip pans, so be it. It's their videos.
The "bottom line" is you can't zoom, so you bash it. Another - minimize the value of a feature you can't have. Lump zooms with "whip pans" and "nauseating things." You cannot choose what is "best" if you have a limited choice set.

Zooming is used all the time in professional videos and films today - dissolves went out years ago; zooming is a standard video technique that you are unable to carry out once you jettison camcorders or buy into cameras with no parfocal lenses. That people abuse it is just misdirection on your part - it does not make it worthless. There are more than "5 reasons not to zoom"; and there are more than 5 reasons to zoom. Zooming is not essential; but it is likely more essential than 10bit for almost anyone.
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post #575 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 09:05 AM
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The "bottom line" is you can't zoom, so you bash it. Another - minimize the value of a feature you can't have. Lump zooms with "whip pans" and "nauseating things." You cannot choose what is "best" if you have a limited choice set.

Zooming is used all the time in professional videos and films today - dissolves went out years ago; zooming is a standard video technique that you are unable to carry out once you jettison camcorders or buy into cameras with no parfocal lenses. That people abuse it is just misdirection on your part - it does not make it worthless. There are more than "5 reasons not to zoom"; and there are more than 5 reasons to zoom. Zooming is not essential; but it is likely more essential than 10bit for almost anyone.
Totally untrue, but believe what you wish. We go the movies virtually every weekend and it is extremely rare to see a zoom while shooting. Old news, old technique.

And dissolves went out years ago? OY! Sorry, cuts followed by disolves remain the most common editing techniques.

Mark, as for 'knocking a feature I can't have', go check my RX10iii videos and see how often I zoomed. Zoom in? Never. Zoom out? Only very occasionally and more to show the power of the RX10iii lens. In that case a dissolve really didn't work since the viewer, due to the power of the lens, might not see what I was focusing on in the wide shot. And before you say I didn't zoom much with the RX10iii because it wasn't technically parfocal, you'd be wrong. Very wrong. Joe's video and those I've posted, prove the RX10iii essentially exhibits parfocal behavior. Again, believe what you wish.

As for 10 bit, sounds like that falls into the category of 'if you can't have it, you bash it'. I personally don't use it, but there are hoards of shooters that do. I guess you don't frequent other sites where for some, that's the main reason they buy the GH5. For me, it's the 4K60p I find most attractive and the overall Panasonic IQ.

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post #576 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 09:37 AM
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YouTube, and to a much lesser extent Vimeo, have given zooming a real bad name. You sure have seen plenty of those clips where the shooters zoom not only when they shouldn't but even when they absolutely don't have to. These types of shooters are often the same people who also love to swing the camera around and pan and tilt almost endlessly. One easy thing they all don't seem able to do is just pause those movements for a few seconds to perhaps linger on some interesting subjects that may or may not exist in the scenes they are shooting at. To me I feel as if these people, when having any type of video recording equipment in their hands, try to capture everything, or anything, as much as they can within the sphere around them with that endless zooming, panning around in search of god know what.

We certainly can do a lot better than that with zoom. However with today's equipment such as hybrid mirrorless cameras, DSLRs and cellphones that are moving away from this important feature of traditional camcorders, good zooming is made more difficult unless the shooters can afford to have very few servo zoom lenses, with or without AF and with or without built-in stabilization that are specifically designed for video, not stills. As far as I can remember, Canon now have only two of those in EF mount. Fuji have one or two and Sony have two. All sell for upwards of $2,500 to over $5,000 each. Or you can go cheaper and lighter, much cheaper than any of those expensive cine zooms with stills zooms, servo or not, but good luck with the zooming.

I don't think it's about zooming being bad or uncool, it's more about the lack of proper equipment to do it right.
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post #577 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
The "bottom line" is you can't zoom, so you bash it. Another - minimize the value of a feature you can't have. Lump zooms with "whip pans" and "nauseating things." You cannot choose what is "best" if you have a limited choice set.

Zooming is used all the time in professional videos and films today - dissolves went out years ago; zooming is a standard video technique that you are unable to carry out once you jettison camcorders or buy into cameras with no parfocal lenses. That people abuse it is just misdirection on your part - it does not make it worthless. There are more than "5 reasons not to zoom"; and there are more than 5 reasons to zoom. Zooming is not essential; but it is likely more essential than 10bit for almost anyone.
Ken here is my test,i thought it best to go on here rather than the Sony A9 page,have a look on your tv my two are 55" your larger one will show even better,i hope you or anyone else see things different to me,it is only a 25P version as a 50P was too large ,and the clips are short but you can do some lengthening your self.
Each Focal Length clip RX10 MK iii first followed by GH5
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post #578 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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AFAIC, the power of the zoom is in the ability to get in close, not the ability to zoom while shooting. The idea is to get closer, generally where you can't otherwise. So DSLRs certainly don't prevent us from that, by far the most important aspect of a zoom, to simply get closer.

For those in love with zooming, the camcorder is the obvious answer. Even having a parfocal, uber-expensive, power zoom DSLR lens, is still not nearly as convenient to use ergonomically, as what exists on a cheap camcorder.
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post #579 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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One hour with the GH5 in the CineD color profile. -5 Sharpness, -5 noise reduction, -3 Saturation
Paul Leemings settings but used no lut. Just a little curves action Some shadow and highlight adjustment.
I'm digging it! Gonna have to do a side by side with Natural and Cine-D. There's a warmth to the Cine-D I like but Haven't tried skin tones yet. Natural just feels so balanced with it's colors. Especially when reproducing skin tones.


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post #580 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 10:26 AM
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Ken here is my test,i thought it best to go on here rather than the Sony A9 page,have a look on your tv my two are 55" your larger one will show even better,i hope you or anyone else see things different to me,it is only a 25P version as a 50P was too large ,and the clips are short but you can do some lengthening your self.

Each Focal Length clip RX10 MK iii first followed by GH5
Chris, I downloaded your video to a thumb drive and played it on my 75" Sony UHD TV. To be honest, there's so much noise in the RX10iii, many of the lines are dancing with artifacts and it's difficult to determine where lines blend. The GH5 shots are infinitely cleaner and, because of that, better resolved. So no, on my TV I'm seeing more detail on the GH5 than the RX10iii and that's consistent with the findings of the website comparison tool I posted for you. In all honesty, the chart in the RX10iii is just 'ugly' for lack of a better word. I'm assuming you haven't raised sharpness on it, right?

Regardless, I don't think your chart is the best way to determine resolution.
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post #581 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 10:32 AM
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Joe, I'm surprised how sharp it still is with the sharpness down -5.
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post #582 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 10:49 AM
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Ken here is my test,i thought it best to go on here rather than the Sony A9 page,have a look on your tv my two are 55" your larger one will show even better,i hope you or anyone else see things different to me,it is only a 25P version as a 50P was too large ,and the clips are short but you can do some lengthening your self.

Each Focal Length clip RX10 MK iii first followed by GH5
Watching at 1080p on my 12.2" tablet the Sony clips already look sharper with MORE detail at every focal length. The difference in color is also very telling. At first I was not sure if the plane of focus of both cameras was exactly on the paper but on pauses it appeared to be as both the front and rear of the paper looked gradually de-focused. But I really can't tell how much of the difference was from the lenses and how much from the cameras.
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post #583 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 02:10 PM
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Chris, I downloaded your video to a thumb drive and played it on my 75" Sony UHD TV. To be honest, there's so much noise in the RX10iii, many of the lines are dancing with artifacts and it's difficult to determine where lines blend. The GH5 shots are infinitely cleaner and, because of that, better resolved. So no, on my TV I'm seeing more detail on the GH5 than the RX10iii and that's consistent with the findings of the website comparison tool I posted for you. In all honesty, the chart in the RX10iii is just 'ugly' for lack of a better word. I'm assuming you haven't raised sharpness on it, right?

Regardless, I don't think your chart is the best way to determine resolution.
Ken i am amazed ,the RX10 clips the first at each focal length have no noise or artifacts on the file i made perhaps the vimeo video does not download correctly,anyway if the GH5 clips look fine to you thats good,the GH5 colour is typicaly better and acurate ,the RX10s colour is not.But i just dont get your RX10 description as ugly if the film dowloaded correctly,both sharpness settings were at the middle default setting.
,

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post #584 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 02:10 PM
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Playing the downloaded files (the only way to do this properly) on a 75" 4K TV, this is not the case. If you can't see the noise during the Sony playback, then you're missing what's going on. There is clearly considerable noise on the Sony that's not present on the GH5. This results in easier readability of the GH5 files.

What I'm seeing is consistent with what's seen when the GH4 or the little brother of the GH5, the G85, is compared to the RX10iii. I'm not seeing things.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM
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post #585 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 02:23 PM
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Playing the downloaded files (the only way to do this properly) on a 75" 4K TV, this is not the case. If you can't see the noise during the Sony playback, then you're missing what's going on. There is clearly considerable noise on the Sony that's not present on the GH5. This results in easier readability of the GH5 files.

What I'm seeing is consistent with what's seen when the GH4 or the little brother of the GH5, the G85, is compared to the RX10iii. I'm not seeing things.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM
Oh well i have booked the opticion for tomorrow anyway i have been out today with my wife to Weymouth The GH5 came with me so you know which i like best.
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post #586 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 02:27 PM
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Watching at 1080p on my 12.2" tablet the Sony clips already look sharper with MORE detail at every focal length. The difference in color is also very telling. At first I was not sure if the plane of focus of both cameras was exactly on the paper but on pauses it appeared to be as both the front and rear of the paper looked gradually de-focused. But I really can't tell how much of the difference was from the lenses and how much from the cameras.
Thats how i clearly see it,as for the Colour the GH5s is far better ie acurate.
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post #587 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 02:49 PM
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Thats how i clearly see it,as for the Colour the GH5s is far better ie acurate.
Yeah, when I did my A/Bs with the 2 cameras, the color was more of an 'in-your-face' difference than resolution. The Sony looked bad by comparison.

In terms of resolution, these 4K cameras are so good in the area of detail, it's not a huge differentiating factor. But what shows up as a very significant difference between these cameras, is noise. The GH5 is just much cleaner. Even that aspect shows up clearly in Chris's original file that I downloaded.
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post #588 of 644 Old 04-21-2017, 06:12 PM
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Aha! The thing about sharpness and autofocus they could be anywhere once they get out of the confine of one's observation system. Too much nitpicking is never good.
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post #589 of 644 Old 04-22-2017, 12:12 PM
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Some interesting 'sights', but I'd tell him to use 1-area AF. He switched from an A7Sii.

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post #590 of 644 Old 04-23-2017, 11:12 AM
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Weighing In

Gentlemen, to extract all the real detail from the GH5 image do not increase the sharpening but do decrease the NR to (-5). For low light situations, you can leave NR at the default (0).

After a somewhat rough introduction to GH5 V-Log-L, it's evident it does a good job of capturing all the sensor DR but unlike some other log formats, V-Log-L prefers not to be over exposed because the individual RGB channels do not clip together. For example, a bright sky will clip the red channel before the green and blue resulting in a hue shift to cyan. Because the shadows are so clean, you can avoid this; use the waveform display to expose the image lower, allow ample headroom for highlights and raise the shadows later in post, if necessary. This is unlike Sony SLog3, where there is more highlight headroom but shadows can be noisy because the default NR is low.

Although the DR of Sony larger sensors, A9, A7SII, A6500 (not RX10 III) is up to 1.5 stops greater, in practice it's not achievable because the 8 bit 4:2:0 internal recording limits DR to an actual 7 stops, unsuitable for HDR unless an external recorder is used. Here, the 150 Mbps 10 bit 4:2:2 V-Log-L is a tremendous advantage by allowing 10.5 stops internal recording suitable for HDR10 or HLG.

In summary, the GH5 can make a killer image through 10 bit 4:2:2 150 Mbps V-Log-L; lower the NR setting (-5), expose lower to protect the highlights and avoid the attendent color shifts. The best way to insure all of that is to shoot like a pro, full manual settings, ISO 400, 3x (0.9) ND, 1/40-1/60th sec shutter. Focus however you will :-)

P.S. avoid the iResolution setting. It's is horrid. Avoid color shifts in V-Log-L by shooting manual, turn off auto ISO. It's like two different cameras. In fact I use the Custom Sets C1-C3 to choose whether I want an action cam, 4k60p CAF, Auto-ISO, P, Photo Style Nat; or a cinema cam, 10 bit 4:2:2, 400 ISO, M, Photo Style V-Log-L, NR (-5).
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post #591 of 644 Old 04-23-2017, 12:45 PM
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Gentlemen, to extract all the real detail from the GH5 image do not increase the sharpening but do decrease the NR to (-5). For low light situations, you can leave NR at the default (0).

After a somewhat rough introduction to GH5 V-Log-L, it's evident it does a good job of capturing all the sensor DR but unlike some other log formats, V-Log-L prefers not to be over exposed because the individual RGB channels do not clip together. For example, a bright sky will clip the red channel before the green and blue resulting in a hue shift to cyan. Because the shadows are so clean, you can avoid this; use the waveform display to expose the image lower, allow ample headroom for highlights and raise the shadows later in post, if necessary. This is unlike Sony SLog3, where there is more highlight headroom but shadows can be noisy because the default NR is low.

Although the DR of Sony larger sensors, A9, A7SII, A6500 (not RX10 III) is up to 1.5 stops greater, in practice it's not achievable because the 8 bit 4:2:0 internal recording limits DR to an actual 7 stops, unsuitable for HDR unless an external recorder is used. Here, the 150 Mbps 10 bit 4:2:2 V-Log-L is a tremendous advantage by allowing 10.5 stops internal recording suitable for HDR10 or HLG.

In summary, the GH5 can make a killer image through 10 bit 4:2:2 150 Mbps V-Log-L; lower the NR setting (-5), expose lower to protect the highlights and avoid the attendent color shifts. The best way to insure all of that is to shoot like a pro, full manual settings, ISO 400, 3x (0.9) ND, 1/40-1/60th sec shutter. Focus however you will :-)

P.S. avoid the iResolution setting. It's is horrid. Avoid color shifts in V-Log-L by shooting manual, turn off auto ISO. It's like two different cameras. In fact I use the Custom Sets C1-C3 to choose whether I want an action cam, 4k60p CAF, Auto-ISO, P, Photo Style Nat; or a cinema cam, 10 bit 4:2:2, 400 ISO, M, Photo Style V-Log-L, NR (-5).
Tom, having shot with both the A7Rii & A6300 and now the GH5, I always felt the DR advantage of the larger sensors was overblown for the way most of us shoot. So in that sense I agree with you. It's something that simply doesn't sway me one way or the other.

I agree, I stay away from iResolution and have with all Panasonic cameras I've used. Intelligent DR is something I have mixed emotions about. Sometimes I do think it helps and other times I don't.

For those of us that don't grade, have you tried a NR setting of -5 OOC, and if so, how do you find it?
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post #592 of 644 Old 04-23-2017, 01:44 PM
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For those of us that don't grade, have you tried a NR setting of -5 OOC, and if so, how does you find it?
Not yet I haven't. I wish I could say but it seems like each time I do without actually verifying, it feels like I am just speculating and have to go back on it if wrong.

I took it to a birthday party yesterday for pair of 4 yr old twins, shot OOC 4k60p, P, CAF, AFF, 225 point. It all came out pretty good, skin tones were nice, handled strong backlight from doors/windows very well, NR was default 0, there was so much activity within the frames something or someone was always in focus but how it is supposed to know who your subject is, I can't imagine. Funny thing though, when it came time to blowing out the candles and I wanted some still shots, I panicked, took the safe route and grabbed the iPhone.
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post #593 of 644 Old 04-23-2017, 05:59 PM
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Tom, I'm probably one of the few who would have liked to have had a built-in flash.

I've noticed the same thing with how the camera handles strong backlighting. It seems to have a solid algorithm that understands the backlighting and compensates for it better than most cameras I've used.
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post #594 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 03:59 AM
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last weeks trip to Weymouth,But yesterday i realy struggled with 100-400mm filming small birds,the focus struggled all the time to lock on birds perched etc,a long way short of my cams focus quality.With the 14-140 no problems but thats the only one.
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post #595 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 06:58 AM
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The DR difference between the GH5 and something like a D750 is night and day. 8-bit can easily hold 12-13stops.
That its just 7 stops.. Im gonna have to see proof, and lots of it. Because the Internet is full of tests, thousands, showing that your wrong.
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post #596 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattias Burling View Post
The DR difference between the GH5 and something like a D750 is night and day. 8-bit can easily hold 12-13stops.
That its just 7 stops.. Im gonna have to see proof, and lots of it. Because the Internet is full of tests, thousands, showing that your wrong.
I don't care if it's an alleged 1,000 stops. What I'm saying is that most people, including users here, won't see the difference, or if so, only under unusual circumstances. There's a big difference between specs and what actually translates to videos we watch that we make ourselves. Nobody is saying that DR differences don't exist, that's you simply trying to stir the pot as usual. And who even mentioned a D750? Geesh. I simply said I had the A7Rii, A6300 and now the GH5 and in practical use, I simply don't see the DR differences.
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post #597 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 07:54 AM
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post #598 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Casey talks about the pros and cons of his GH5





BTW Jon Olsson purchased his GH5 from Samy's Camera in LA , the same store I purchased my GH5 from.
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post #599 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 09:11 AM
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GH5 vs A7Sii

Here's an interesting comparison of the two cameras from a guy that has both. Of course no matter what comparison you see, much of it is subjective in its findings:


Last edited by Ken Ross; 04-24-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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post #600 of 644 Old 04-24-2017, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattias Burling View Post
The DR difference between the GH5 and something like a D750 is night and day. 8-bit can easily hold 12-13stops.
That its just 7 stops.. Im gonna have to see proof, and lots of it. Because the Internet is full of tests, thousands, showing that your wrong.
http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_.../GammaFAQ.html

Quote:
How many bits do I need to smoothly shade from black to white?
If you use nonlinear coding, then the 1.01 "delta" required at the black end of the scale applies as a ratio, not an absolute increment, and progresses like compound interest up to white. This results in about 460 codes, or about nine bits per component [for contrast ratio of 100:1]. Eight bits, nonlinearly coded according to Rec. 709, is sufficient for broadcast-quality digital television at a contrast ratio of about 50:1.
Contrast ratio of 50 is less than 7 stops, count 'em yourself: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

You can, of course, use a different gamma profile, but you will get banding.

Last edited by Ungermann; 04-24-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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