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post #1 of 59 Old 09-11-2017, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Xg10/xf400/405

So, it appears from the rumor sites that these cameras are almost on us, and both will shoot 4K video.

They will likely be using the same processor as the C200. And the stills analog of that processor (which would be the Digic 8) will be able to shoot 4K as well, which means that we will be seeing a deluge of 4K capable cameras coming out from Canon later this year or in early 2018, such as higher end powershots, the 7D3, the next Rebel, and the next full version of the M series (not the baby ones).

Should be interesting times ahead.

Ken will be forced to buy yet more cameras!
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post #2 of 59 Old 09-11-2017, 03:36 PM
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Nope, not me, maybe Mark. He's got way more cameras than I do.
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post #3 of 59 Old 09-11-2017, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
So, it appears from the rumor sites that these cameras are almost on us, and both will shoot 4K video.

They will likely be using the same processor as the C200. And the stills analog of that processor (which would be the Digic 8) will be able to shoot 4K as well, which means that we will be seeing a deluge of 4K capable cameras coming out from Canon later this year or in early 2018, such as higher end powershots, the 7D3, the next Rebel, and the next full version of the M series (not the baby ones).

Should be interesting times ahead.

Ken will be forced to buy yet more cameras!
Is that XG10 supposed to be a model with the current G-series palmcorder form factor? It's high time for a worthy replacement for the Sony FDR- AX100/PXW-X70 which are not only quite long in the tooth but in a market position nobody, including Sony themseves, have even bothered challenging (until now?)

I believe a really compact true professional camera in a camcorder form factor still has its place in today's markets dominated by not so compact interchangeable lens cinema cameras, mirrorless, and DSLRs. A lot of professional videographers I know don't care one bit about stills features of the cameras they use but they occasinally have to resort to the use of DSLRs and mirrorless due to cost and availability. None of them seems to like the stills form factor when shooting video, especially for extended periods and the real hassle of making it more comfortable, or useable by adding in the rods, rails, follow focus mechanisms, ND matteboxes, audio interface etc. Whereas the usual requirements on the videos themselves are hardly cutting edge by any standards of today's pro video assignments e.g. 1080p up to 50p and 4K up to 25p or maybe 50p for provisional slow-mo posts. 8-bit 4:2:0 is mostly acceptable while 10-bit 4:2:2 at any resolution level may be preferable but is often not required. I have shot with the Canon C100 series cameras in 8-bit 4:2:0 1080p 24 and 28-Mbps AVCHD and the footage always beats the pants off a similar shot shot with my Sony X70 in 10-bit 4:2:2 at 50Mbps. It is the real world viewing by normal people, not the specs, that counts. It is often what people usually see such as well-defined detail, good colors, stable image, smooth camera movement, correct focus, correct exposure, freedom from unnatural artifacts such as macro blocking, jellos, wobbles or warping, and last but not least clean audio.

A 4K palmcorder with a 1" or even slightly smaller sensor size and up to internal 4K/50,60p capability and provisions for external 10-bit 4:2:2, decent stabilization and preferably a phase detection AF system can get the job done more cheaply and easily for quite a lot of people.

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post #4 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 04:30 AM
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Thanks, Tugela, very informative and the image certainly looks Canon-ish! too.
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post #6 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 06:34 AM
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Looks like a nice camera, but the sample footage showed obvious AF misses...and this with dual pixel AF. Also missing were any 4K samples.
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post #7 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, we will need to wait for footage to get a better idea. The AF should be ok. DPAF is not the only part of the equation, it is also a matter of how accurate and responsive the motors on the lens are.

The 1" sensor should mean less purple fringing, which was always my pet hate with the small sensor camcorders.

I expect that resolution will be less than stellar however, since it is not an oversampled sensor. The 4K footage is likely to be closer to HD in terms of real resolution. People shooting for broadcast likely don't care about that however, since they will be distributing in HD anyway, so shooting in 4K and getting great HD out of that will make them happy.

These cameras are what I always wanted my G30 to be. I loved the physical camera itself, but hated the disappointing image it produced.
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post #8 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Apparently you can get adapters that fit on the lens as well, such as a 1.5x focal distance extender if you need extra reach.

The two XF cameras are body replacements for the XA series, not the XF series. Weird that they would keep the XF prefix considering, because they are missing a lot of the controls normally on an XF body.
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post #9 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Some more links:

GX30:


XF400/405


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post #10 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
Yes, we will need to wait for footage to get a better idea. The AF should be ok. DPAF is not the only part of the equation, it is also a matter of how accurate and responsive the motors on the lens are.

The 1" sensor should mean less purple fringing, which was always my pet hate with the small sensor camcorders.

I expect that resolution will be less than stellar however, since it is not an oversampled sensor. The 4K footage is likely to be closer to HD in terms of real resolution. People shooting for broadcast likely don't care about that however, since they will be distributing in HD anyway, so shooting in 4K and getting great HD out of that will make them happy.

These cameras are what I always wanted my G30 to be. I loved the physical camera itself, but hated the disappointing image it produced.
I too liked my G30...or was it the G20? Too many cameras, too many names, not enough brain cells left to remember them all.

The problem I've always had with Canon and purple fringing, was more lens-related than a sensor issue. I saw this with their SLR lenses too. They always seemed prone to chromatic aberrations.

If you're correct about their 4K footage turning out to look more HD than 4K, what's the point?
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post #11 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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The purple fringing you see on small sensors is mostly related to light scattering off the beyer filter. Some of it is caused by lens chromatic abberation, but the biggest culprit is pixel density. The problem becomes more pronounced on higher pixel density sensors, which is why you want a larger sensor if you can get one. The green filters scatter the most light, and there are more of them, so the scattered glow appears blue or purple (sometimes you can get other colors as well, but most intense light sources are white or near white, so the scattered light appears purple).
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post #12 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If you're correct about their 4K footage turning out to look more HD than 4K, what's the point?
Well, it will be a bit better than HD, same as the XC10/15, which use similar sensor pixel resolution. About 1500 lines in theory, but a bit less in practice once you include the limitations of the lens resolution (a 15x optical zoom lens is NOT going to have the superb resolution you might see in a prime, or professional zoom lens which are typically 3x or 4x zooms). Probably about 1.1-1.2k lines in practice. So, it would look pretty good on HD sets, but not as good as an oversampled sensor looks on a 4K set. For a lot of users, especially those doing broadcasts or events, that might be enough.
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post #13 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 01:29 PM
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Wow, hard to believe Canon finally ups their game with these camcorders, and they have 4K60fps also.
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/p...XA/20170912-XA
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post #14 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 01:32 PM
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Does anyone think Sony will release something that does 4K60fps to replace the AX100?
Seems like they might, now that Canon is releasing these cams.
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post #15 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Blasst View Post
Does anyone think Sony will release something that does 4K60fps to replace the AX100?
Seems like they might, now that Canon is releasing these cams.
That's what I'm betting Blasst. They can't figure out how to put it in their DSLRs, so maybe the bigger body of an AX200?
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post #16 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 02:47 PM
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Unless you wanted a still shooting DSLR, Canon has been easy to ignore. Watching the GX10 promo provided by Tugela suggests Canon has checked all the features boxes from stabilization to 60p and a 1" sensor. There are accessory lenses too. I'm looking forward to the entertainment of watching the test footage reviews. That said, $2500 is pricey enough that it won't be an impulse buy.

At least it can be said that the camcorder market is not yet dead!
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post #17 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post
Unless you wanted a still shooting DSLR, Canon has been easy to ignore. Watching the GX10 promo provided by Tugela suggests Canon has checked all the features boxes from stabilization to 60p and a 1" sensor. There are accessory lenses too. I'm looking forward to the entertainment of watching the test footage reviews. That said, $2500 is pricey enough that it won't be an impulse buy.

At least it can be said that the camcorder market is not yet dead!
It has three big step-ups from those old 4K Sony camcorders:

1. 4K 60P
2. PDAF - the autofocus will be much better than the old CD system.
3. 5-axis stabilization - BOSS only works on two axes, it is actually not very good.

These are the three latest developments in consumer video shooting, and they make a visible difference (unlike 10bit or 4:2:2 or gamma profiles) in everyday shooting. Canon - who knew?
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post #19 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post
Unless you wanted a still shooting DSLR, Canon has been easy to ignore. Watching the GX10 promo provided by Tugela suggests Canon has checked all the features boxes from stabilization to 60p and a 1" sensor. There are accessory lenses too. I'm looking forward to the entertainment of watching the test footage reviews. That said, $2500 is pricey enough that it won't be an impulse buy.
There are three step-ups for this camcorder over those old Sony 4K shooters:

1. 4K 60P, of course.
2. PDAF - much better autofocus, and Canon's implementation in their DSLRs has gotten praise (they did it first).
3. 5-axis stabilization - much better than BOSS, which is only two-axis and in fact not that good.
Canon! who knew?
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post #20 of 59 Old 09-12-2017, 08:17 PM
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" PDAF - much better autofocus, and Canon's implementation in their DSLRs has gotten praise (they did it first)."

I'm looking forward to the testers that run to and from the camera to test CAF!
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post #21 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 07:12 AM
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I'm intrigued. They have 4K 60p like the Panasonic HC-X1 and UX180 but in a smaller body. Easier to take with you as a travel camera.
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post #22 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 09:53 AM
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15X F2.8-4.5 8.3-124.5mm (35mm equivalent 25.5–382.5mm), vs longer faster 25x F2.4-4 24-600mm on the RX10 III & IV. With my 4K 60p GH5 I have wider zooms like the Leica F2.8-4 8-18mm on a larger MFT sensor along with Nokton 25mm F0.95, Leica 42.5mm F1.2, Olympus 75mm F1.8 ED , 100-300mm F4-5.6 and others. What exactly will this do that I can't with my myriad of 4K cameras I already have ? And I did not even mention my Sony APS-C & full frame cameras. The GH5 viewfinder resolution has 3,680,000 pixels vs only 1,560,000 for the GX10.
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post #23 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 01:58 PM
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.....What exactly will this do that I can't with my myriad of 4K cameras I already have ? .....
I got out my old Panasonic 1080p camcorder and found that I miss the form factor and the smooth electric zoom. Other than that, you are right that there are lots of ways to shoot 4K. But, no I don't miss the form factor enough to spend $2500 just for that.
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post #24 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
15X F2.8-4.5 8.3-124.5mm (35mm equivalent 25.5–382.5mm), vs longer faster 25x F2.4-4 24-600mm on the RX10 III & IV. With my 4K 60p GH5 I have wider zooms like the Leica F2.8-4 8-18mm on a larger MFT sensor along with Nokton 25mm F0.95, Leica 42.5mm F1.2, Olympus 75mm F1.8 ED , 100-300mm F4-5.6 and others. What exactly will this do that I can't with my myriad of 4K cameras I already have ? And I did not even mention my Sony APS-C & full frame cameras. The GH5 viewfinder resolution has 3,680,000 pixels vs only 1,560,000 for the GX10.
You can't use PDAF and shoot 4K 60P. You can't zoom while shooting. There is no consumer camera with all three of these: PDAF, 4K 60P and 5-axis stabilization. Those are important features. However, you are correct, you really do not need another video camera.

So what is still missing? a combo of PDAF, 4K 60P, 5-axis IBIS, and a big sensor. Sony?

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post #25 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 06:59 PM
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I wouldn't count on Sony breaking new grounds in the consumer segment. It's not that they don't know know how to make great camcorders. They certainly do but the priorities over the past few years may have shifted. As a business enterprise it only makes sense to put resources into the place where they can get the most returns. Those places appear to be image sensors and home theater systems. Their recent offerings, Sony A99, A9 or even the latest RX10IV are aimed at deep pocket enthusiasts, the market for which in terms of $ is extremely small. Far smaller than the budget mirrorless/DSLR segment where Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic and Canon now have the biggest shares. On the other hand, the camera battles on the cellphone front have been very intense. The combined market in $ value may be a zillion times bigger than the likes of A7xx, A9, GH5, RX10xx combined. And Sony as a major sensor and camera maker have so much to gain from it. They absolutely can't afford to let that one slip like thay have with camcorders or stand alone cameras.

Look at the new iPhones, Samsungs, LG, Huaweis and countless phones from other lesser brands. The norm is now THREE cameras/sensors per phone, not 2 like it used to be. Some now even have 4. You sell one phone and you sell 3 cameras. What is not to like?

I'm afraid from now on we probably have to rely more on Panasonic or even the dinosaur Canon for our video camera suppliers. Or some upcoming Chinese knock-offs like Xiaomi's Yi for future innovative, and affordable fun. The Yi 4K+ IMO completely trounces the Sony X3000 no matter how you look at it, at a lower cost. On this market too Sony may not have just let it slip, they seem to try to run away from it with the new RX0. Who among us, or any mass market action cam shooters for that matter, are going to buy this carefully dumbed down camera with no 4k internal and priced at $800?
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post #26 of 59 Old 09-13-2017, 11:29 PM
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For me personaly the GH5 has been an unreliable nightmare,the RX10iii i dont like the colour or overal look it produces,the Cheap FZ82 has great picture quality and incredible 4k reach,but there is no question for video only if stills are not wanted camcorders are best imo.
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post #27 of 59 Old 09-14-2017, 07:42 AM
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......there is no question for video only if stills are not wanted camcorders are best imo.
I think that is changing. Maybe you don't need a stills camera.

"Stills" covers too wide of a range. If you define stills as screen images, 4K produces great results. In other words, it you consider how many images are viewed on phones, tablets and computers compared to on paper in newspapers, magazines and actual prints, the 8 megapixel frame grabs from 4K are highly suitable.

Even inkjet prints work well. As always content is king. A story telling, well composed 8MP print beats a sloppy 36MP print.

There cab be a shooting style conflict. If the the "filmic blur" from 1/30th shutter speed is needed, still captures will have the same blur. I'm intentionally shooting at 1/125th and my clips look like video, not film. But, the "screen shots" are clearer.

If you want stills to put on Instagram, put in an email or even frame for your wall, 4K frame grabs do work. I routinely put 13"x19" prints from a $100 Canon printer on my home office wall. Unless I tell people looking at them, they don't know or care if they are "still shot" or "frame grabs".

These were shot in Iceland ten days ago. One is a frame grab the other a JPEG from RAW. Either will work for a "wall hanger".

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...zWO0rvgpg0QF-C

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...3CB2XucI7Vf3yI

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post #28 of 59 Old 09-14-2017, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Blasst View Post
Does anyone think Sony will release something that does 4K60fps to replace the AX100?
Seems like they might, now that Canon is releasing these cams.
Yes, and very soon...
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post #29 of 59 Old 09-14-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by P&Struefan View Post
I wouldn't count on Sony breaking new grounds in the consumer segment. It's not that they don't know know how to make great camcorders. They certainly do but the priorities over the past few years may have shifted. As a business enterprise it only makes sense to put resources into the place where they can get the most returns. Those places appear to be image sensors and home theater systems. Their recent offerings, Sony A99, A9 or even the latest RX10IV are aimed at deep pocket enthusiasts, the market for which in terms of $ is extremely small. Far smaller than the budget mirrorless/DSLR segment where Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic and Canon now have the biggest shares. On the other hand, the camera battles on the cellphone front have been very intense. The combined market in $ value may be a zillion times bigger than the likes of A7xx, A9, GH5, RX10xx combined. And Sony as a major sensor and camera maker have so much to gain from it. They absolutely can't afford to let that one slip like thay have with camcorders or stand alone cameras.

Look at the new iPhones, Samsungs, LG, Huaweis and countless phones from other lesser brands. The norm is now THREE cameras/sensors per phone, not 2 like it used to be. Some now even have 4. You sell one phone and you sell 3 cameras. What is not to like?

I'm afraid from now on we probably have to rely more on Panasonic or even the dinosaur Canon for our video camera suppliers. Or some upcoming Chinese knock-offs like Xiaomi's Yi for future innovative, and affordable fun. The Yi 4K+ IMO completely trounces the Sony X3000 no matter how you look at it, at a lower cost. On this market too Sony may not have just let it slip, they seem to try to run away from it with the new RX0. Who among us, or any mass market action cam shooters for that matter, are going to buy this carefully dumbed down camera with no 4k internal and priced at $800?
I'd agree with this and much of what you said and they're the reasons I've migrated away from Sony after years of buying many of their cameras & camcorders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post
For me personaly the GH5 has been an unreliable nightmare,the RX10iii i dont like the colour or overal look it produces,the Cheap FZ82 has great picture quality and incredible 4k reach,but there is no question for video only if stills are not wanted camcorders are best imo.
I still get much better results with the GH5 and my previous G85 than any camcorder I've ever used. So like Bill, I'd disagree with this.

I remain optimistic that Sony will release a follow-up to the AX100 (it's way way overdue) that will include all the necessary & essential goodies that we expect in a 2017 camcorder. Hopefully the improvement in color that was evident with the A6500, will carryover to future Sony releases.
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post #30 of 59 Old 09-14-2017, 08:22 AM
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I'd agree with this and much of what you said and they're the reasons I've migrated away from Sony after years of buying many of their cameras & camcorders.



I still get much better results with the GH5 and my previous G85 than any camcorder I've ever used. So like Bill, I'd disagree with this.

I remain optimistic that Sony will release a follow-up to the AX100 (it's way way overdue) that will include all the necessary & essential goodies that we expect in a 2017 camcorder. Hopefully the improvement in color that was evident with the A6500, will carryover to future Sony releases.
Those new Sony camcorders, replacing the AX100 and its pro variants, are coming, very soon.
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