Sony FDR AX-700 VS Canon VIXIA GX10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony FDR AX-700 VS Canon VIXIA GX10

It has been awhile since this forum has had some new camcorders to compare. This might be fun.

Will they be rock solid stable? Will they shoot 4K at 60p? How wide and long is the lens? Low light? Are the file formats easy to edit? What is the dynamic range? Will Panasonic have a new camcorder? Will YouTubers find them useful?




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post #2 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 10:20 AM
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Sony FDR AX-700 ?
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post #3 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
Sony FDR AX-700 ?
Said to be official soon. It is a leaked image! Of course it could be fake news. It is supposed to be accompanied by the PXW-Z90 and HXR-NX80 .
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post #4 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 10:32 AM
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post #5 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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The Canon will win probably.

The Gx0 series always had better ergonomics than the AX100, they just didn't shoot 4K and had a smaller sensor. Now that those things are level, the overall handling of the Canon camera will make it win out.
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post #6 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 11:38 AM
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The ergonomics of these camcorders is terrible

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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
The Canon will win probably.

The Gx0 series always had better ergonomics than the AX100, they just didn't shoot 4K and had a smaller sensor. Now that those things are level, the overall handling of the Canon camera will make it win out.
Just from the pictures (of which for the Canon, they are complete), one can see the ergonomics of both camcorder models is awful. Just like the AX100 (putting aside that you can't actually shoot in full manual mode)

Any serious shooter of video needs to change settings on the fly.

Let's start with ev adjustment. All cameras need it if shooting in any mode but full manual, usually to avoid overexposure and hot spots. How do you do that with these cameras? Well, you choose to dedicate the *one* little dial or the *one* lens ring as the ev adjuster (press the function button multiple times or go into the morass of menus). Ok, then suppose you want to manually focus? then you set the dial or ring for focus, and you lose ev control. Or you want to manually zoom? then you have to change the function of the ring/dial to zoom, and you cannot manually focus or ev adjust. And so on.

The mirrorless cameras have lots of customizable buttons and multiple dials for making any and all adjustments easy - with just finger pushes. This camcorder design is for point and shoot.

Every type of camera has its place. For those who want a camera to help expand creative options, these camcorders are not a good choice. Wait for the next models of mirrorless, like a GH5 with up-to-date focus or an A6500 with 4K 60P.

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post #7 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 12:34 PM
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I don't know about the AX100, but making adjustments on the G30 was no problem. It may have one dial, but there is also an associated button there that allows you to toggle through functions. It works a lot like the iFn button on Samsung lenses. It allows you to adjust aperture, shutter speed and gain on the fly. The lens ring does focus while the rocker switch does zoom.

On events you will probably have this thing attached to a tripod, and using the touch screen to do adjustments (which can be done on the fly while recording as well) is simple as well. It has a proper full function touch screen.
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post #8 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Any serious shooter of video needs to change settings on the fly. ...
I'd suggest any serious shooter of video also needs a power zoom lens going from wide angle to telephoto. I'd love to see that in the m4/3 format, but haven't yet. The Lumix FZ2500 with the one-inch sensor is the closest I've seen, and it's less than half the price of the new Canon. Granted, the new Canon has better AF, but any serious shooter of video uses manual focus.... or so they say. (If you're shooting an one-off event that can't be replicated, and your AF misses, any "serious video shooter" would no longer be taken seriously.)

The point is, until the GH5 gets a power zoom lens going from wide angle to telephoto, it will be crippled as a full service video camera. And for less serious video shooters, until it gets reliable AF, it will be crippled as a point and shoot video camera.
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post #9 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by uncledunc View Post
I'd suggest any serious shooter of video also needs a power zoom lens going from wide angle to telephoto. I'd love to see that in the m4/3 format, but haven't yet. The Lumix FZ2500 with the one-inch sensor is the closest I've seen, and it's less than half the price of the new Canon. Granted, the new Canon has better AF, but any serious shooter of video uses manual focus.... or so they say. (If you're shooting an one-off event that can't be replicated, and your AF misses, any "serious video shooter" would no longer be taken seriously.)

The point is, until the GH5 gets a power zoom lens going from wide angle to telephoto, it will be crippled as a full service video camera. And for less serious video shooters, until it gets reliable AF, it will be crippled as a point and shoot video camera.
I agree with you: Here is what a serious shooter would like: 1. 4K 60p, 2. PDAF, 3. Power zoom available or stuck on, 4. lots of buttons and dials, 5. big sensor. 6. 5-axis stabilization in camera.

The GH5 misses on 2 of these; the Sony A6500 misses only one.

I am not sure how many "serious" shooters there are though.
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post #10 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 03:23 PM
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And I will once again contend that although a nicety, one can be a very serious shooter and not need a 'power' zoom lens. I see no advantage whatsoever, if one is determined to shoot a clip while zooming, to have a power zoom lens that can't maintain focus during the zoom. Each to his own.

Of course we're missing one little thing from the list, picture quality. In the end, the prime motivating factor for me in choosing a camera, is picture quality. I know, call me crazy.
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post #11 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 04:03 PM
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And I will once again contend that although a nicety, one can be a very serious shooter and not need a 'power' zoom lens. I see no advantage whatsoever, if one is determined to shoot a clip while zooming, to have a power zoom lens that can't maintain focus during the zoom. Each to his own...
And I contend that if one is trying to be creative with hand held video, it's a lot easier to hold the camera with one hand, pull focus with the other, and zoom with a button instead of a third hand. In fact, I don't see power zoom as a "nicety", I see it as a necessity. There's a reason camcorders have power zoom lenses - it's because they're camcorders, not cameras.
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post #12 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And I will once again contend that although a nicety, one can be a very serious shooter and not need a 'power' zoom lens. I see no advantage whatsoever, if one is determined to shoot a clip while zooming, to have a power zoom lens that can't maintain focus during the zoom. Each to his own.

Of course we're missing one little thing from the list, picture quality. In the end, the prime motivating factor for me in choosing a camera, is picture quality. I know, call me crazy.
Of course it should be a power zoom that does maintain focus; almost all camcorders did that. And many Sony power zooms (all?) do. Panasonic zooms do not (maybe the newest is an exception). You were convinced the Rx10 did that too (and maybe it did). I think we were not serious about the term serious; one can be serious with any camera, and the power zoom is probably the least important on the list (but it has always been a feature of camcorders that just got lost in the mirrorless world until recently).

I agree that picture quality matters a lot too, but that is subjective in large part (although I think we agree it is less subjective than most think), while 60p versus 30p and PDAF versus CD are not arguable differences (again, one may weigh their importance differently). So we could call you crazy for liking the PQ of camera A versus B, and you couldn't disprove that! But we cannot argue over features being there or not.

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post #13 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by uncledunc View Post
And I contend that if one is trying to be creative with hand held video, it's a lot easier to hold the camera with one hand, pull focus with the other, and zoom with a button instead of a third hand. In fact, I don't see power zoom as a "nicety", I see it as a necessity. There's a reason camcorders have power zoom lenses - it's because they're camcorders, not cameras.
I will agree with you that the form factor of a camcorder can be superior to that of a DSLR for video, but there have been many many videos (and movies) done beautifully without a power zoom. It is not a necessity, it simply isn't.

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Of course it should be a power zoom that does maintain focus; almost all camcorders did that. And many Sony power zooms (all?) do. Panasonic zooms do not (maybe the newest is an exception). You were convinced the Rx10 did that too (and maybe it did). I think we were not serious about the term serious; one can be serious with any camera, and the power zoom is probably the least important on the list (but it has always been a feature of camcorders that just got lost in the mirrorless world until recently).

I agree that picture quality matters a lot too, but that is subjective in large part (although I think we agree it is less subjective than most think), while 60p versus 30p and PDAF versus CD are not arguable differences (again, one may weigh their importance differently). So we could call you crazy for liking the PQ of camera A versus B, and you couldn't disprove that! But we cannot argue over features being there or not.
No, we can't argue over features being there or not, but as I think we agree, we surely can argue about whether those features are important or even necessary to good movie-making.
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post #14 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I will agree with you that the form factor of a camcorder can be superior to that of a DSLR for video, but there have been many many videos (and movies) done beautifully without a power zoom. It is not a necessity, it simply isn't.



No, we can't argue over features being there or not, but as I think we agree, we surely can argue about whether those features are important or even necessary to good movie-making.
No feature is a necessity. I enjoy shooting with a camera that not only has no zoom it has no aperture. But it never fails to be in focus, ever. Does have 4K and 60p.
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post #15 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 06:23 PM
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The true reasons most stills interchangeable zooms don't have power zoom:

- Stills shooters couldn't care less about power zoom.
- Even if they did the manufacturers would have a really hard time making it really usble for video. The zooms would either work well with no wobbles, in complete silence, have no focus breathing and parfocal but they would certainly be large, heavy and expensive. Or the manufacturers could make it light, compact and cheap enough to be usable by consumer shooters but these power zooms would certainly fail at one critical thing or another that would make zooming while recording something most shooters would rather forget.

The Panasonic FZ2000/2500 has managed to tick most of the "critical" boxes but perhaps halfheartedly. For instance, to eliminate the wobbles and lessen the torgue that would be required to smoothly drive its extended zoom, once you power it up the lens extends to the shooting position. It's always extended when turned on. This might sound good at first but until you try it you'd immediately see the downside. The camera weight is ALWAYS off balance no matter what you shoot, wide, full tele or somewhere in between. If you go on a holiday and have only one FZ2000 as your video camera your hand and wrist will get tired very quickly though the camera itself is not very heavy.
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post #16 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
No feature is a necessity. I enjoy shooting with a camera that not only has no zoom it has no aperture. But it never fails to be in focus, ever. Does have 4K and 60p.
You can always use a pinhole camera. It won't give you 4K60p, but it too will always be in focus.
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post #17 of 30 Old 09-14-2017, 08:14 PM
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I will agree with you that the form factor of a camcorder can be superior to that of a DSLR for video, but there have been many many videos (and movies) done beautifully without a power zoom. It is not a necessity, it simply isn't.
To clarify, it's a necessity for me if I want to have the freedom to create what I want to create. It may not be a necessity for you.

I jumped into the M4/3 video world with both feet, hoping it would be an upgrade from the consumer camcorders I was using. That's when I realized how much I relied on power zoom. I now have added a FZ2500 to my arsenal. The M4/3's have been pretty much relegated to fixed focus, static shots in the multi-camera projects I'm doing.

Speaking of zooms, check out this video. It's a live, single camera shot of a pop band doing a 4 minute song. It could have been shot without zooms, but I think the zooms make it much more dramatic. (My favorite part is when the camera zooms out to wide angle and you can see the dolly tracks.)

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post #18 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncledunc View Post
To clarify, it's a necessity for me if I want to have the freedom to create what I want to create. It may not be a necessity for you.

I jumped into the M4/3 video world with both feet, hoping it would be an upgrade from the consumer camcorders I was using. That's when I realized how much I relied on power zoom. I now have added a FZ2500 to my arsenal. The M4/3's have been pretty much relegated to fixed focus, static shots in the multi-camera projects I'm doing.

Speaking of zooms, check out this video. It's a live, single camera shot of a pop band doing a 4 minute song. It could have been shot without zooms, but I think the zooms make it much more dramatic. (My favorite part is when the camera zooms out to wide angle and you can see the dolly tracks.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEiZu7xeZ4A
Well i do agree,maybe a little less zooming than in that film,i wish my Panasonic HC-X1000 was better in low light but for general filming none of my cameras come close to its ease of use.The Sony RX10MKiii loses focus badly zooming, i wish i had the FZ2500,the best picture quality i have had from any camera/camcorder is from an FZ1000 i owned.
A little too much zooming in this film with my HC-X1000 but for material like that the subject may well be gone by the time the camera is paused and fiming restarted.

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post #19 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 09:52 AM
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https://www.slashcam.com/news/single...-wi-13860.html

More data on the Sony 700 from a German website, no 60 FPS at 4K.

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post #20 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
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https://www.slashcam.com/news/single...-wi-13860.html

More data on the Sony 700 from a German website

Eugene
No need to go there, which discusses all the three models. The official US Sony AX700 site is up:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/han...specifications
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post #21 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 10:33 AM
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Wonder if 60P will become available later by firmware upgrade? Hard to believe there are only 30 frames at 4K, a deal breaker for me.

BTW that German web site has excellent evaluations on most 4K cameras and camcorders.

Cyberlink will come out with PD16 in the next week or two, I hope they include UHD burning. So far I have been burning 4K HEVC onto 25/50 GB (even on a 4.7 GB) as a file and it plays fine on
a Samsung 8500. Anyone aware of UHD burning software that is reasonably priced?



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post #22 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 11:10 AM
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Listing the new features vs the AX100:

S-Log3 and S-Log2 gamma recording option
new under/over cranking features 1fps to 960fps (120 max on AX100 in 720p, no under cranking option)
1080p120 feature at 100mbps only 720p on AX100
proxy file recording
programable picture profile settings
new menu system
dual SD card slots (only 1 on AX100)
return of LANC port (maybe if you still have your old LANC controllers they'll work with this one)
better hand grip
may have dropped 5.1 audio recording (with AVCH recording, 2 ch only)? I've never used it since I really only use 4K on it.


Other than these features it appears to be the same camera. No 60p! Sony will keep that for their professional line. I wouldn't hold my breath on a future firmware upgrade unless they announce it at launch.

Anything here that would make me upgrade???

The new picture profiles and S-log, maybe but I find full auto fairly good with the AX100 and it's not hard to change to manual settings when needed. Dual SD card slots, I have a 256gb card, that's 5hr 15 minutes of 4K so no, I'm fine there. The rest isn't worth buying a new camera. Same sensor, same lens, same body besides the new hand grip. I don't think the AX100's is that bad. Don't think I'll be upgrading.

I would say, if you haven't bought a 4K camera yet, this would be one to look at as it has some new features so don't bother with the older AX100, but if you've already picked up the AX100 or something else, it's not really an upgrade.

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post #23 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 11:41 AM
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I would say, if you haven't bought a 4K camera yet, this would be one to look at as it has some new features so don't bother with the older AX100, but if you've already picked up the AX100 or something else, it's not really an upgrade.

I own the AX100 since it came out. The Canon seems a real upgrade to me. Bye bye Sony!
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post #24 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 01:03 PM
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I hadn't looked at the Canon yet, just the 700. Will look at that next.

Edit: 150mbps recording and 60p on the Canon. Fairly large difference in price though, 1900 and 2499.

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post #25 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
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.........but if you've already picked up the AX100 or something else, it's not really an upgrade.
It has the same size sensor as the AX100 but technically a different sensor with a built-in LSI to do high-speed readout on the sensor. If you shoot a lot of fast moving subjects or your style of shooting requires a lot of movement of the camera you'd be better off with the new AX700 as I'm sure rolling shutter skew, a weakness of the AX100 at 4K but not so much at 1080p, will be less. The RX100V which has the same new sensor has already demonstrated this.

But if you shoot plenty of fast action you have to decide between 4K/60p on the new Canon and up to about 240p but only at 1080p with almost no resolution loss on the new Sony.
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post #26 of 30 Old 09-15-2017, 10:35 PM
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Actually, what I really want to know is if they fixed the dead file problem with a power loss on the AX700. If it still does that I'm definitely not buying it. After looking both these over I think I'd go with the Canon but the extra cost is really almost a deal breaker. The main advantage is 60p option at UHD but I don't have anything to play back UHD 60p yet only 30p. I don't see enough to upgrade yet. I'll wait until we have 60p for under $2k on a camcorder and I have a computer than can display it.

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post #27 of 30 Old 09-16-2017, 05:43 AM
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Preorders for the Sony FDR-AX700 start in three days (September 19):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...camcorder.html
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post #28 of 30 Old 09-16-2017, 09:58 AM
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The Canon can do 4K60p and can do 4:2:2, is it to HDMI only? Its lens is wider. 15x is a decent range.
From what I found, bitrate in HD mode is still pitiful 35 Mbps, should be at least 50 Mbps.
It looks less sexy than the Sony, yes, important to me. The Sony continues the style of the HDR-HC1, which I owned and liked.

But the worst part: the Canon is priced at $2.5K, and this is a consumer model, without XLR handle or HD-SDI output. The corresponding pro model will likely be $3K. The NX80 looks like a better option unless one really-really-really needs 4K60p.

EDIT: Right, the corresponding pro model, the XF400, is $3K. Too expensive. Has 9-blade iris. I don't like electro-mechanical ND filter, if they made it a disk with holes, why not allowing to rotate it manually with a finger? Also, I would prefer to have a consumer-grade vari-ND filter as an extra option. The pro model has the same 35 Mbps in HD mode.

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post #29 of 30 Old 09-18-2017, 03:32 PM
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I am wondering if hooked up to a external monitor does the ax-700 cut off the HDMI feed to the monitor when recording In 4k????
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post #30 of 30 Old 09-18-2017, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewdog13 View Post
I am wondering if hooked up to a external monitor does the ax-700 cut off the HDMI feed to the monitor when recording In 4k????
Probably. The AX-100 does but you could use an external recorder then that would double as your monitor.

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