Sony with their stupid RX10 IV and AX700 UHD 30p cameras - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony with their stupid RX10 IV and AX700 UHD 30p cameras

After all them years they still put the same UHD 30p from the AX100 in the AX700 along with the RX10 IV. I think I will wait until 2020 for the GH6 with 8K or 6K 60p.
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post #2 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 07:20 AM
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Joe, it is amazing, it really is. A body the size of the AX700 certainly eliminates cooling issues as a cause for not including 4K60p. So either they're cheaping out on the processor or they're insisting on leaving a 'differentiation factor' for their pro line.

As I said, I've parted ways with the current Sony thinking.
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post #3 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Joe, it is amazing, it really is. A body the size of the AX700 certainly eliminates cooling issues as a cause for not including 4K60p. So either they're cheaping out on the processor or they're insisting on leaving a 'differentiation factor' for their pro line.

As I said, I've parted ways with the current Sony thinking.
I am surprised and disappointed.

Btw, I am told the sensor in the GH5 is made by Sony and the oversampling algorithm is also Sony's (which is good). So, you haven't left Sony entirely! Some manufacturers try to keep it secret who makes their sensor.

The new Canon camcorders also have Sony-made sensors (Canon's big cameras do not). This does NOT mean the sensors are identical to those in Sony cameras, as Canon and Panasonic can specify what features to include or leave out from a set of specs.
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post #4 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 09:20 AM
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Yeah, who could guess one week ago that Canon surpasses Sony when it comes to fps in 4K?!
I´m still very confused that Canon actually implements 60fps 4K. In their DSLR-line it´s nothing like that.

Come on Sony, what have you done?!?? Totally in stillness for the last three years?
And 29mm in wide end compared to Canons GX10 25,5mm....hmmm.

Let´s see the next move from Panasonic.

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post #5 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 09:38 AM
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I am surprised and disappointed.

Btw, I am told the sensor in the GH5 is made by Sony and the oversampling algorithm is also Sony's (which is good). So, you haven't left Sony entirely! Some manufacturers try to keep it secret who makes their sensor.

The new Canon camcorders also have Sony-made sensors (Canon's big cameras do not). This does NOT mean the sensors are identical to those in Sony cameras, as Canon and Panasonic can specify what features to include or leave out from a set of specs.
I would have been surprised if the sensor wasn't made by Sony. Almost all of these cameras have Sony sensors. Of course the imagery coming from one brand to the other can be quite different.
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post #6 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr 120fps View Post
Yeah, who could guess one week ago that Canon surpasses Sony when it comes to fps in 4K?!
I´m still very confused that Canon actually implements 60fps 4K. In their DSLR-line it´s nothing like that.

Come on Sony, what have you done?!?? Totally in stillness for the last three years?
And 29mm in wide end compared to Canons GX10 25,5mm....hmmm.

Let´s see the next move from Panasonic.
It is all about the processor. Canon have upgraded theirs this year, but Sony are on their off year, so they are apparently still using last years processor. Older processors mean older codecs and bit rates. The upgrades made this year primarily relate to the interface chips that control focusing processing, so for Sony we see the dramatic improvement in focusing capability, but not in things like the codec used. At least this year.

Unless you are in the processor business then update cycles on processors are probably going to be 2-3 years for most tech companies. Likewise update cycles on sensors is usually multiple years.
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post #7 of 16 Old 09-15-2017, 11:51 AM
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It is all about the processor. Canon have upgraded theirs this year, but Sony are on their off year, so they are apparently still using last years processor. Older processors mean older codecs and bit rates. The upgrades made this year primarily relate to the interface chips that control focusing processing, so for Sony we see the dramatic improvement in focusing capability, but not in things like the codec used. At least this year.

Unless you are in the processor business then update cycles on processors are probably going to be 2-3 years for most tech companies. Likewise update cycles on sensors is usually multiple years.
mhmm....thanks for the info
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post #8 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 06:07 AM
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I'm very surprised by the tenor of this thread... Everyone is more concerned about specs than image quality. If I've learned anything about product announcements over the past decades, it's how easy it is for manufacturers to promise specs that are implemented in a way that does not improve picture quality. For example, offering 480p measured resolution in a 1080p format. Doubling frames to package 30p footage in a 60p package. And so forth. I'd rather have an increase in measured resolution or dynamic range or low light performance than more low quality frames per second.

Also suprised that people are giving Canon more benefit of the doubt than Sony... Canon has spent the past decade overpromising and underdelivering; Sony has done the opposite. Yes, Sony still struggles with ergonomics and menu design but their sensors have revolutionized still photography and video photography. The FDR-AX700 has the latest Sony sensor, with better autofocus, more dynamic range, a promised reduction in rolling shutter. Remember rolling shutter? A few years ago everyone was complaining about rolling shutter and now no one cares that the latest camcorder eliminates it?
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post #9 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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This thread is for people who already have the AX100 or RX10 III and was looking for a big upgrade. If you don't have the previous versions then they are not that stupid since they are much lower in cost to the 4K 60p Canon GX10.
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post #10 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hatchback View Post
I'm very surprised by the tenor of this thread... Everyone is more concerned about specs than image quality. If I've learned anything about product announcements over the past decades, it's how easy it is for manufacturers to promise specs that are implemented in a way that does not improve picture quality. For example, offering 480p measured resolution in a 1080p format. Doubling frames to package 30p footage in a 60p package. And so forth. I'd rather have an increase in measured resolution or dynamic range or low light performance than more low quality frames per second.

Also suprised that people are giving Canon more benefit of the doubt than Sony... Canon has spent the past decade overpromising and underdelivering; Sony has done the opposite. Yes, Sony still struggles with ergonomics and menu design but their sensors have revolutionized still photography and video photography. The FDR-AX700 has the latest Sony sensor, with better autofocus, more dynamic range, a promised reduction in rolling shutter. Remember rolling shutter? A few years ago everyone was complaining about rolling shutter and now no one cares that the latest camcorder eliminates it?
You are kidding, right? You first complain about people talking about specs, and then you list the specs you want to see: "better autofocus, more dynamic range, a promised reduction in rolling shutter'". Those are specs. Specs tell you about image quality; sometimes there are not enough specs to determine that. In fact, I read your post to say we need more specs. And I agree.
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post #11 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 09:49 AM
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At least the NX80 now comes with 4K without necessity to pay extra for 4K "upgrade".
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post #12 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 10:54 AM
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I'm very disappointed with the Sony lineup with no 60p but I'd rather have great image quality at 30p then crappy 60p.

Coming from an AX100 I'm ready for an upgrade and the NX80 fits the bill. I was sold on the Canon XF400 until this announcement. Lack of 60p is very disappointing but then i remembered my lack luster experience with the Canon XF300 & HF G30. They weren't horrible, but i wasn't blown away either. I"ve yet to find a YouTube video on the XF series that will change my opinion on this. You can throw the XC10 in with this assessment too.

The early footage from the XF400 has me a little worried that this trend will continue. It's not even on par with the AX100. So it's looking like the NX80 will win this battle for me and i'll just have to deal with the lack of 60p. I know I can get a GH5 but i prefer the ergonomics of a camcorder for run & gun plus it's still not a match for my NX1 (until the firmware upgrade at least).

XF400 Pros
Dual Pixel AF, 60p, 15X Zoom, Hardware ND Filter switch, Max Bit Rate 150 & upcoming codec upgrade, 5 Axis OIS

NX80 Pros
Full sensor readout, OLED Touchscreen, HLG, $700 less than XF 400, can use my existing batteries.

On paper the XF400 wins so I hope the footage stands up, but he full sensor readout of the Sony and Canon's history of line skipping soft unflattering footage has me leaning heavily toward the NX80. I'm not trying to spend a lot of time in my NLE editing I need great footage right out the camera.

What good is 4K/60p if the image is subpar? You'll just a very smooth crappy image. I hope the final image on the XF400 is great, but then i would have to decide if 60p is worth the extra $700. I'm not sure it is to me.
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post #13 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 04:14 PM
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This thread is for people who already have the AX100 or RX10 III and was looking for a big upgrade. If you don't have the previous versions then they are not that stupid since they are much lower in cost to the 4K 60p Canon GX10.
Things like major improvements in AF performance and decreased rolling shutter are far more important than having 60 fps for the vast majority of users.

Remember, to be "filmic" you would be using 24 fps anyway.
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post #14 of 16 Old 09-16-2017, 04:27 PM
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The early footage from the XF400 has me a little worried that this trend will continue. It's not even on par with the AX100. So it's looking like the NX80 will win this battle for me and i'll just have to deal with the lack of 60p. I know I can get a GH5 but i prefer the ergonomics of a camcorder for run & gun plus it's still not a match for my NX1 (until the firmware upgrade at least).
There is no early footage from the XF400, other than a few clips in the Adorama video, but those were shot in HD, not UHD. We will need to wait for real clips to start appearing to make a judgement on IQ.
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post #15 of 16 Old 09-17-2017, 02:48 AM
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Full sensor readout is used on both the Sony and Canon Camcorders. Difference being their are slightly more pixels on the CMOS chip in the Sony camcorders. In theory the Sony camcorders should be a little more detailed while the Canon camcorders have twice the frame rate. That's in good light. In low light, the Canon would have the edge if all else was equal because of the supposedly bigger pixels but we'll need to wait and see who's better at low light to be sure.

It would be a little bit more expensive to implement 4K 60p on the Sony than it would on the Canon specifically because of the slightly more pixels on the CMOS chip. If any of the chips can't handle the full readout for 4K 60p, they should try cropping the sensor a bit and not use the extra pixels for 4K 60p. If they did that, it would be similar to how it is on the DVX200. It uses a big portion of the chip for 24p and 30p but it'll crop a bit for 60p. With all that said, it's true that if Panasonic is able to implement 4K 60p without cropping on the GH5 than something the size of the AX700 should be able to as well. Heck, Yi was able to put it on the 4K Plus, Apple has it on the iPhone 8 / X and the future GoPro Hero 6 will have it as well. Sony should be harassed to release a firmware upgrade to implementable 4K 60p if possible even if they have to crop a bit. Better to have it than not have it at all.

I'll be good to see which camcorder deals with rolling shutter and manual controls better. Obviously if people want very easy to use manual controls and a longer zoom, theirs always the Panasonic HC-X1 or the UX180. If the manual controls of the Canon camcorders isn't too bad, I might prefer it over the UX180 since having as smaller body has it's benefits especially when you travel.

Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; 09-17-2017 at 03:31 AM.
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post #16 of 16 Old 09-17-2017, 08:48 PM
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I'll be good to see which camcorder deals with rolling shutter and manual controls better. Obviously if people want very easy to use manual controls and a longer zoom, theirs always the Panasonic HC-X1 or the UX180. If the manual controls of the Canon camcorders isn't too bad, I might prefer it over the UX180 since having as smaller body has it's benefits especially when you travel.
The camera's physical controls are set up like the G30's, so you will have full manual control (aperture, shutter speed and gain) at the touch of a button. Zoom is done by the rocker switch (you can set the speed) while focusing is done by the ring on the lens. It would appear that you also get full manual control on the touchscreen while recording as well.

I have a G30. Manual control while recording on those is a breeze. My beef with the G30 was the disappointing IQ. The camera itself physically was excellent and well thought out, I really liked it as a camcorder. Menus needed a bit of work, but that was improved in later models IIRC.
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