Run and Gun and 4K60P and 120P RAW? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 09-25-2017, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Run and Gun and 4K60P and 120P RAW?

Run and gun means one can carry around a camera with no rigs, poles, tripods or other aids shooting handheld, for hours. The FS700R needs the 7" Shogun Inferno attached by wire to shoot 4K60P and 120P RAW. Can this combo be used for run and gun?

Well, if you think of the Shogun not as a monitor but as just an external recorder, then you can just put it in a shoulder bag. Convergent Design makes a very thin and flexible (you can tie it in knots they show) 3' SDI cable. So carry the recorder in a shoulder bag and shoot with the camera. The cable is so thin and flexible and long, it is as if it is not there (SDI cables also have more secure attachments than HDMI cables; no danger of the wire coming loose). The picture (click on it) shows the rig - the tripod is just a stand-in for the videographer. No tripod allowed for this. Just me and the bag and the camera. The camera has a perfectly fine monitor, touch screen, and all the focus assists one needs - (peaking, 8X magnification moveable frame). I wish Atomos would just make a little recorder that does what the Inferno does, in a small size.

So, out to shoot at 4K60P and 120P in the field. First stop - chickens, slowed down by 1/4 in 4K (real 4K, not UHD). Cinematic chickens. See their picture too.


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Last edited by markr041; 09-25-2017 at 05:09 PM.
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post #2 of 19 Old 09-25-2017, 06:29 PM
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Looked a bit grainy with exposure a bit hot. I'm also not sure why it was rendered at 4K30p if you shot it in 4K60p.
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post #3 of 19 Old 09-25-2017, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Looked a bit grainy with exposure a bit hot. I'm also not sure why it was rendered at 4K30p if you shot it in 4K60p.
I don't know what "hot" exposure means; there are no blow outs (I do see some in the streamed version). Its just a look anyway.

You are seeing what video looks like without any in-camera noise reduction, since the camera output is true RAW - no processing, including no sharpening. The Shogun does no noise reduction or sharpening, just lays on a log gamma (Slog2) if converting to ProRes 422 HQ. Grain and softness are what those pretentious folks at other forums like, since real film has grain and no sharpening. They have a point - it is "natural", no plasticky-look from noise-reducing smoothing. Noise="organic". Sometimes it could be distracting (I see that sometimes in movies). But I see no reason whay video should try to emulate the defects of film!

Anyway, what RAW does is move processing burdens to post instead of in-camera. In principle this makes shooting easier, since with the extra latitude from 10bit 422 and extended DR you can move things around a lot in post (or 12bit 444 is you record RAW DNG). If the video looks hot, it can be cooled easily, if one wants that. Shooting hot is what is called for to minimize noise, but the final video can be cool or hot or lukewarm. Shooting RAW means more time at the editor.

30P to get 4X slow mo from 120p, relevant to the chicken shots. Again, with 60P and 120P one can choose speeds. More scope for creativity.

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post #4 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 05:07 AM
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I guess each to his own. Bigger and heavier equipmen,t that now mandates post-processing and extra work to get me to a point that will probably not look as good as the ‘processed’ output direct from the camera. Honestly, it makes no sense for me. I understand that some enjoy this, but I don’t and seeing the overwhelming majority of these attempts fail miserably, certainly gives me no additional incentives to embark on this path.

I long ago gave up caring what those pretentious know-it-alls, on those other forums, tell us to like and not like. The material I’m shooting shows no sign of any plasticky look. In fact, on my OLED, it looks scarily like I remember it looking.

The more I do this, the more I see how overlooked the final display device is in the ‘look’ of what we shoot. To me it far exceeds the relatively minor differences in the cameras we are forever arguing about on this forum. As I watch material on my TV, I often wish that everyone can see it as I’m seeing it. 😊

On a side not, we’ve been watching ‘The Crown’ in 4K (no HDR) on Netflix. The visuals in each and every scene, indoor, outdoor, day or night, are beyond stunning. The lighting, composition and clarity of 4K gives every scene a depth that almost makes your head spin. Not once did I say I wish this were in HDR. In fact the best HDR I’ve seen, doesn’t match the realism, beauty and skill in which this series was shot.
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post #5 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 07:44 AM
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Imo the Sony FS700R+Shogun Inferno. RAW into ProRes 422 HQ.footage in the film looks very similar color wise to the RX10MK111 i am selling,i dont like the green grass & foliage color especialy.
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post #6 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 08:58 AM
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How about an 8K run & gun camera ?

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post #7 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 09:00 AM
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That’s Mark’s next camera. Soon he’ll need a larger house to accommodate them all. It also pretty much fits his definition of ‘run n gun’.
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post #8 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 09:10 AM
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Ken, I think I will stay with what I have since I have not seen much difference in image quality. The FS700 is much larger than my full frame VG900 that I sold over a year ago.
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post #9 of 19 Old 09-26-2017, 08:20 PM
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Had the FS100 for a while back, a camera with less capability than the FS700 but otherwise with a very similar form factor. The design may be less of a problem for pros or enthusiasts who like to accessorize their cameras to get any certain specific results they want but even as in a bare-bone form it would hardly be a good run and gun camera IMO. Canon buried the FS100 and later the FS700 with their C-series cameras in the marketplace prior to the existence of the current FS5 and FS7 mostly because of these Sony design eccentricities aside from other factors like color, some imaging characteristics and perhaps to a lesser extent among the pros, phase detection AF.

It's a matter of if you want to get RAW for these setup and price vs. how you could make it work for you but I'd pass as a run and gun camera.
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post #10 of 19 Old 09-27-2017, 02:15 AM
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The FS700R raw image after 5 years is still in the top 5% of all cams. And then you can name your camera that shoots 4k DCI raw at 120fps and it's the one you don't own. To shoot 4k DCI 16 bit raw on my F55 took nearly $10k for the recorder and media. The FS700 is about the oldest camera to shoot 4k but it was not the first 4k camera. It's always had a 4k sensor but most of the reviews on it didn't even mention 4k because the feature was released later. It has the longest feature update history of any Sony camera. It's capability in the release of the "r" (for raw) peaked just as it reached end of sales life. Its Sony E-mount accepts adapters for about 30 lens types. It was marketed as a consumer cam because of its AVCHD 8 bit 420 long gop codec, but many pros used these for indies, short form, narrative, documentaries, corporate and weddings. Paired with the Shogun you can record 4k-DCI 12 bit raw at up to 120 fps. It's not run and gun but far bigger, heavier cameras are used shoulder mounted in all sorts of work. If you can find one of these you can pick it up for a song and it makes perfect sense for Mark because he already has the Shogun, already has the right lenses. Conceivably, the FS700R is even acceptable for Netflix Original series, where even a top tier camera like the Arri Alexa XT does not qualify. Mark's chick'n video immediately struck me as cinematic, the only video I've yet seen in this forum that conveyed that impact. It's thick, rich. It's looks like film and not like fake sharpened video. Audiences prefer this look. Sorry if you don't but that's just the fact. Thumbs up.

And speaking of Netflix Originals, the series quoted by
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
On a side not, we’ve been watching ‘The Crown’ in 4K (no HDR) on Netflix. The visuals in each and every scene, indoor, outdoor, day or night, are beyond stunning. The lighting, composition and clarity of 4K gives every scene a depth that almost makes your head spin. Not once did I say I wish this were in HDR. In fact the best HDR I’ve seen, doesn’t match the realism, beauty and skill in which this series was shot.
was shot exclusively on Sony F55's 16 bit raw S_Log3 and HDR ready at their time of choosing if they so desire to release it this way. I certainly have no quarrel with director's or Netflix intent to present it in 709. You could say the FS700R sensor bears family lineage with the F5 and F55; not the same but related, the F55 is global shutter and the bayer filter uses the dyes and color science of the F65, layout is similar, 11.6 megapixel S35.
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post #11 of 19 Old 09-27-2017, 02:31 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...artin_episodes
Is probobly the last tv series here where film is still used,you can keep it it looks crap compared to all the video filmed progrmns.
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post #12 of 19 Old 09-27-2017, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
And speaking of Netflix Originals, the series quoted by was shot exclusively on Sony F55's 16 bit raw S_Log3 and HDR ready at their time of choosing if they so desire to release it this way. I certainly have no quarrel with director's or Netflix intent to present it in 709. You could say the FS700R sensor bears family lineage with the F5 and F55; not the same but related, the F55 is global shutter and the bayer filter uses the dyes and color science of the F65, layout is similar, 11.6 megapixel S35.
Tom, I’m sure the camera is capable of lovely images, as are many of today’s top-end camera. However, as you well know, to get the results seen in The Crown, takes much much more than just the cameras. What made each and every scene in this production appear to have such depth, was a bevy of lighting pros, focus pullers and guys who really understood exposure, to say nothing of the amazing work in post. I’m sure you can find a myriad of work done on that same camera that doesn’t begin to approach in quality what we see here. Until people see this on a properly adjusted, high-end UHD TV, they can’t appreciate what I’m saying.

Unfortunately most of us don’t have a full production crew at our disposal and certainly not one with the talents exhibited here.

IOW, it’s not just the camera, but that’s no revelation to most of us. 😊
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post #13 of 19 Old 09-27-2017, 06:54 AM
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Watch the behind the scene video of "The Dig", an 8-minute short made specifically to advertise the new Sony Cinealta Venice and you will see pretty clearly how much a heap of gear they piled into the shoot. Not just gear of course, but time, efforts, talent procuring, pre and post expertise with that level of the equipment they used. Lastly I bet a mountain of money too judging from what they did. The image nevertheless is as gorgeous as the talents they have on the screen.
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post #14 of 19 Old 09-27-2017, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Two Tests: Autofocus and Color

An important feature for run and gun is good autofocus. No, the FS700R does not have PDAF. But it does have AF and touch screen focus. So, I tested these features in low light (not a tracking test, yet).

Another issue that has been mentioned is color. Particularly when shooting Slog. The issue is that Slog is accompanied by a color gamut (SGamut) that is larger than REC709. But almost all screens can only show limited REC709 colors. A translation is needed between the extended color gamut of Slog and REC709 color. SGamut is proprietary (only Sony knows what it is); it is next to impossible to use color controls in an editor to make the translation. So, one uses a look-up-table (LUT) that translates SGamut to REC709 color. There is no other way. You can then deviate from the REC709 color, but it is a reasonable starting point. A lot of the poor coloring one sees is due to using the wrong LUT or none at all.

Sony supplies a LUT. Convergent Design supplies a LUT. Both for Slog2 color and gamma translation. In this video I try both LUTs and compare. I use my color test objects. I also test AF and push focus. Each clip starts with the CD LUT followed by the Sony LUT. There is an obvious difference.


The Sony LUT provides accurate color - the clips look exactly like what I saw. The lighting was dim and incandescent. I set the camera WB to 3200. F4, ISO2000, 0 gain, shutter 125. 60P. No adjustment in post at all except the application of the LUT.
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post #15 of 19 Old 09-28-2017, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Torture Test: At the Beach

Here is a 4K 60P video shot at a beach. This was a run and gun torture test:

Hot (86F), direct sunlight. Two issues - overheating and screen.

1. The Shogun Inferno (apt name) did stop occasionally due to overheating. The FS700R had no overheating issues at all. By taking the Inferno out of the case and waiting a few minutes, I could get the Inferno to start recording again. It does give a warning, but since I am not watching the screen, I actually experienced a shutdown. In cooler weather, or without a beating sun, I think there would be no problem. This was clearly worst case. And I shot 495 GB's of video (there will be two videos).

2. Could I see the camera screen? Yes! The main reason is that it is not reflective. Key was I could also see the peaking colors (red) and zebras.

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post #16 of 19 Old 09-28-2017, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
How about an 8K run & gun camera ?

Perfect camera for YouTubers....nothing less will do.
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post #17 of 19 Old 09-28-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Here is a 4K 60P video shot at a beach. This was a run and gun torture test:

Hot (86F), direct sunlight. Two issues - overheating and screen.

1. The Shogun Inferno (apt name) did stop occasionally due to overheating. The FS700R had no overheating issues at all. By taking the Inferno out of the case and waiting a few minutes, I could get the Inferno to start recording again. It does give a warning, but since I am not watching the screen, I actually experienced a shutdown. In cooler weather, or without a beating sun, I think there would be no problem. This was clearly worst case. And I shot 495 GB's of video (there will be two videos).

2. Could I see the camera screen? Yes! The main reason is that it is not reflective. Key was I could also see the peaking colors (red) and zebras.

https://youtu.be/xX5rO6CHFRo
There is a good reason it is called the Inferno!
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post #18 of 19 Old 09-29-2017, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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And here's what few cameras can do: 4K 120 fps Slow Mo:

from RAW to 735 Mbps intra 10bit and 4K DCI (burst mode). Test example:

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post #19 of 19 Old 10-09-2017, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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4K DCI 60P from RAW->ProRes 422 10bit


I have audio now, but on this excursion it was all wind, as you can see. The dead cat took care to make the wind noise less obnoxious, but it adds little. So, I just left in the only interesting sounds (motorcycle take off, car cover slam) with the music track.
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